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Discussions => Tunes => Topic started by: Bob Ellis on December 21, 2018, 06:01:56 PM

Title: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 21, 2018, 06:01:56 PM
I have asked here for help in identifying a number of the tunes that I am transcribing for the Yorkshire Dales Tunes Project and I hope it won't strain melnet's almost inexhaustible goodwill if I ask for a help with a few more tunes over the coming weeks.

The latest tune I've transcribed is a nice hornpipe from the playing of Septimus Fawcett, an English concertina player who was born and grew up in Baldersdale. My researches on folktunefinder.com and elsewhere have thrown up no other versions of the tune, but it sounds kind of familiar. Does anyone recognise it?

Sepp played it in B flat major, but I have transposed it here into D major.

X:20
T:Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe
T:(Septimus Fawcett)
M:4/4
L:1/8
S:Septimus Fawcett
O:Frosterley, Weardale
R:Hornpipe
Z:Boaafb Ellis, 2018
K:D
(3ABc|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2d/2 A3/2d/2|f3/2a/ 2d3/2f/2 d'3/2b/2 g3/2b/2|a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 g3/2c/2 e3/2g/2|!
f3/2B/2 d3/2f/2 e3/2A/2 c3/2e/2|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2A/2 d3/2f/2|a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 d'3/2f/2 g3/2b/2|!
a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 g3/2A/2 B3/2c/2|e2[d2f2][d2f2](3ABc|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2A/2 d3/2f/2|a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 d'3/2d/2 g3/2b/2|!
a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 g3/2c/2 e3/2g/2|f3/2B/2 d3/2f/2 e3/2A/2 c3/2e/2|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2A/2 d3/2f/2|a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 d'3/2d/2 g3/2b/2|!
a3/2d/2 f3/2a/2 g3/2A/2 B3/2c/2|e2[d2f2][d2f2]|:a3/2_b/2|b3/2g/2 e3/2d/2 c3/2e/2 a3/2b/2|!
a3/2f/2 d3/2B/2 A3/2F/2 A3/2f/2|g3/2e/2 c3/2A/2 G3/2F/2 G3/2E/2|D3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2d/2 d'3/2c'/2|(3bag (3fed c3/2e/2 a3/2b/2|!
a3/2f/2 d3/2B/2 A3/2F/2 A3/2f/2|(3gfe (3dcB A3/2g/2 e3/2c/2|d2[D2d2][D2d2]:|
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Anahata on December 21, 2018, 07:08:29 PM
Reminds me a bit of the Golden Eagle Hornpipe at the beginning, but the similarity fades further into the tune, I suspect.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 08:22:48 PM
Great tune but I don't recognise it at all I'm afraid. I hope you won't be offended if I point out a couple of things about your coding, one of which will save you a lot of typing.

Here is your pick-up and the first bar of the tune:

(3ABc|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2d/2 A3/2d/2|

First of all none of the 2s in this are required as f3/ assumes divide by 2 if no other number is given so f3/d/ would do what you want.

However, if the default note length is a quaver, L:1/8 then ABC has a cool way of swinging quaver pairs, so f>d (f greater than d) gets you a dotted pair. f<d (f less than d) gets you a pair with the short note first often seen in strathspeys and pipe music. So your pick-up and first bar could look like this:

(3ABc|d>F A>d f>d A>d|


Finally, the exclamation point at the end of each line of code is unnecessary, it used to mean a hard return but was removed from the standard many years ago and ! is now used as part of an inline command like !trill! or !fermata!


Hope this helps!

Pete.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 21, 2018, 11:35:21 PM
Thanks, Pete, for the advice about how to improve my use of ABC. I only started using it fairly recently having decided that, when my book on the dance music of the Yorkshire Dales is published, I will want to make the tunes available not just to music readers but also to those who play by ear. Consequently, I am something of an ABC novice, even though I have written out around 200 Dales tunes in ABC in the last few months.

In the light of your constructive comments, I'll go back through those tunes and improve the ABC representation of them.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Roger Hare on December 22, 2018, 06:23:21 AM
1) ...(3ABc|d3/2F/2 A3/2d/2 f3/2d/2 A3/2d/2|...  could look like this: (3ABc|d>F A>d f>d A>d|

2) Finally, the exclamation point at the end of each line of code is unnecessar...is now used as part
of an inline command like !trill! or !fermata!

1) FWIW, in the tune under discussion, I converted all those X3/2Y/2s to X>Y - result, a script with (roughly) half the
    characters, so much less typing. Of course, the effect will be most marked in those tunes with lots of X3/2Y/2s.

    I use EasyABC and it may be worth mentioning that sometimes, these X3/2Y/2s appear willy-nilly in a tune if you use
    the EasyABC facility to halve the default note length (from L:1/8 to L:1/4 for instance). Using this feature changes the
    representation of all the notes in the score to reflect the new default note length, and sometimes these X3/2Y/2s pop
    out of the woodwork when this is done. For this reason, I stick pretty determinedly to the default note length of L:1/8
    in all my ABC scripts. I don't know if other ABC utilities have this note length changing feature.

2) Rats! I've been doing that since I started, to force a 4-bar line. Must stop...
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 22, 2018, 12:22:30 PM
Just tried Pete's suggestions (see below) for improving my use of ABC.

The d>F rather than the more cumbersome d3/2F/2 worked fine. I have, in fact, used this before but I had forgotten about it, so I was grateful for the reminder. However, Pete's suggestion that I didn't need the ! at the end of each line didn't work. If I remove the !, I lose the forced start of a new line, which I want to retain so that the representation of the music in ABC replicates exactly the way I have written it in Musescore for publication in my book.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 22, 2018, 12:25:53 PM
Which ABC software are you using Bob?
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Anahata on December 22, 2018, 02:27:57 PM

If I remove the !, I lose the forced start of a new line, which I want to retain so that the representation of the music in ABC replicates exactly the way I have written it in Musescore

In standard ABC (ever since Chris Walshaw first invented it) a new line in the ABC code creates a new stave line in the printed music.
If your software doesn't respect newlines in the source, it's broken.

The '!' convention was introduced in a Windows3.x program called ABC2WIN, which broke the ABC standard and caused chaos because, having no competition at the time and being free, it was widely used. Worse, it also didn't respect newlines in the ABC file, so the two were horribly incompatible.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 22, 2018, 05:44:29 PM
I'm using EasyABC 1.3.5
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 22, 2018, 05:49:44 PM
I'm using EasyABC 1.3.5
In that case, you should be able to use all the latest ABC syntax and commands. As Anahata said, something may be broken - i.e. corrupted - in your version of the software. Try deleting the application, downloading a fresh copy and reinstalling. 
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 22, 2018, 05:51:28 PM
Go to Sourceforge and download 1.3.7.7 (https://sourceforge.net/projects/easyabc/files/EasyABC/)

Uninstall your existing software and install the latest version.
Edited to add: Unless you're on a Mac in which case I don't know what the latest version is.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 22, 2018, 06:06:19 PM
Edited to add: Unless you're on a Mac in which case I don't know what the latest version is.
It's 1.3.7.7
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 23, 2018, 01:10:57 AM
EasyABC 1.3.7.7 for Mac.
In case there is any confusion you need the disk image file, not the source code folder.

The download page is here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/easyabc/files/EasyABC/1.3.7.7/

Just click on the file EasyABC_1.3.7.7.dmg and your download should start automatically.
Once downloaded, follow the instructions to install the software. If you get a snotty message from your computer's operating system security, simply hold down the Alt key as you open the software and ignore any warnings that it's not bona fide Apple software.  ::)
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 23, 2018, 11:16:02 AM
I am not a happy bunny! It has taken me six hours of dealing with one problem after another to uninstall EasyABC 1.3.5, as advised on this thread, and install 1.3.7.7. I am using Windows 10.

The first three re-installations wouldn't open at all. Each one was uninstalled and the computer switched off before trying again. This was a pain because uninstalling didn't remove all the files and I had great difficulty in finding and removing the remaining ones (the new installation wouldn't start until they were all removed). Eventually, the fourth attempt to install EasyABC worked. Hurrah!

It was only then that I discovered that I still can't remove the ! at the end of each line because doing so removes my forced line breaks and replaces them with default ones, which I don't want.

EasyABC 1.3..5 did what it said on the tin. In my experience, 1.3.7.7 is anything but easy to install and then doesn't do what it is supposed to do. Where's the emoticon for steam coming out of the ears when you need it?

Bah, humbug!
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Anahata on December 23, 2018, 12:08:30 PM

I still can't remove the ! at the end of each line because doing so removes my forced line breaks and replaces them with default ones

Even if you put text linebreaks in the ABC code at the places where you want them?

I have noticed that abcm2ps (which is the conversion engine behind EasyABC) will switch to auto line breaks if there is a single '!' anywhere in the file.
If it's not that, there might be a configuration setting making it do that.
The manual for command line abcm2ps specifies a switch +c for "Automatic line breaking is turned off (default)."
I don't know if EasyABC has a way to specify command line parameters for the abcm2ps program.
If line breaks in the ABC text are being ignored, you could try putting this line at the top of a file and see if it makes a difference:

  %%continueall false

(Linux user here, can't be too specific about how Windows does it)
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 23, 2018, 12:17:20 PM

I still can't remove the ! at the end of each line because doing so removes my forced line breaks and replaces them with default ones

Even if you put text linebreaks in the ABC code at the places where you want them?

Yes, if by text linebreaks you mean pressing the Enter/Return key.

Thanks for your other suggestions. I'll look into them after lunch, when I'll have a bit more time.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 09:08:47 PM
Yes, if your tune has ! linebreaks and you start removing them, the display will misbehave until you've removed them ALL from the tune, at which point it should work again.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 09:16:48 PM
BTW, your tune I think is Proudlock's Fancy.

X:16
T:Proudlock's Fancy
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/2=70
S:James Hill
A:Gateshead
Z:Chris Partington
K:Bb
(3FGA|B>DF>B d>FB>d|f>Bd>f b>Bd>f|\
g>Be>g f>Bd>f|e>FA>e c>FA>c|
B>DF>B d>FB>d|f>Bd>f b>ab>a|\
g>^fg>e d>cB>A|c2B2 B2:|
|:g>^f|g>ec>B A>gf>=e|f>dB>F D>FB>f|\
e>cA>G (3FGF (3EFE|D>FB>d f>db>a|
g>ec>B A>gf>=e|f>dB>F D>FB>b|\
a>gf>e d>cB>A|c2B2 B2:|
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 23, 2018, 11:50:51 PM
I should have know that. Well spotted Chris! Proudlock's Fancy it is.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 24, 2018, 11:58:43 AM
Yes, if your tune has ! linebreaks and you start removing them, the display will misbehave until you've removed them ALL from the tune, at which point it should work again.

Thanks, Chris. It is now working as it should. As you had probably surmised, I only removed one or two exclamation remarks and then stopped because it was messing up the line lengths. Now that I know that this corrects itself when all the exclamation marks have been removed, I'll remove them from all the 200+ Dales tunes I have written out in ABC.

Thanks also for the name of Proudlock's Fancy. I thought the tune sounded familiar, but couldn't recall its name. I would have thought putting the first few notes into folktunefinder.com would have found it, but it didn't.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 24, 2018, 12:42:32 PM
To remove the exclamation marks, assuming you got all the tunes in the same file, open the file in Word and "Find and Replace" with a space. One hit. It will remove all the marks, so keep an eye on the dynamics markings if you have any.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Lester on December 24, 2018, 12:55:07 PM
I'll remove them from all the 200+ Dales tunes I have written out in ABC.


For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 24, 2018, 01:29:59 PM
...Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'.
Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?
Otherwise I just delete the spaces manually, or via the global replace which you've described.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Lester on December 24, 2018, 01:46:38 PM
Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?


Settings/ABC Type Assistance/Add Bar/Disabled
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Bob Ellis on December 24, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
Thanks, Chris and Lester, for the shortcuts you suggested, which saved a lot of work. Back to transcribing Sepp Fawcett's tunes, hardly any of which he was able to name!
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 24, 2018, 03:09:42 PM
Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?
Settings/ABC Type Assistance/Add Bar/Disabled
Got it. Thanks, Lester.  (:)
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Roger Hare on December 25, 2018, 08:11:14 AM
Yes, if your tune has ! linebreaks and you start removing them, the display will misbehave until you've removed
them ALL from the tune, at which point it should work again.

Ah! I am having a problem with inconsistent behaviour - lines with a terminating ! appear as 4 bar lines in the
on-screen score (which is what I want), and ?-bar lines in the PDF, and I do have scripts with ! at the end of
some lines and not others (for what I thought were valid reasons- clearly incorrectly). Maybe that's the problem.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Gena Crisman on December 27, 2018, 04:54:21 PM
For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.

If anyone ever does need to fix a whole ABC file, or a folder of 1000 ABC files, in one go and, for some reason, this method lets them down, or they want to do something fancier or apply some universal formatting rules, then I personally would use something called a regex, or a regular expression, to solve the issues in an automated fashion when it isn't so cut and dry as to what the issues actually present themselves as. They are, in simple terms, find/replaces which let you ask the computer to be a bit more fuzzy about what is acceptable. In actual practical terms though, they are often very difficult to understand and write.

Most find/replace systems do not support them, so, you need to use special tools to use these kind of searches, but, if you just need to work on one file, you could paste into and use https://regex101.com/ to perform/test queries and you can get find/replace style behavior by clicking the bottom of the screen where it says 'substitution' to have let you replace text as well, which should save anyone downloading a weird programmer specific text editor, like notepad++, atom or sublime text.

A simple enhancement might be:
Code: [Select]
Find:
!\n
Replace:
\n
As that will only replace ! that occur adjacent to newlines, so, ie at the end of lines, since as noted, they can be used elsewhere sometimes

Also:
Code: [Select]
Find: (note the spaces)
 *\| *
Replace:
|
This will replace any number of spaces before, or after, the | character with a | on its own, rather than just if there's one on either side.

And, for the sake of showing off / completeness
Code: [Select]
Find:
3\/2([._'A-Za-z]+?)\/2*
Replace:
>$1
Appears to automate converting the tune to using > instead of A3/2B/2 as suggested here (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,23253.msg277278.html#msg277278). Note however that, due to one instance of "f3/2a/ 2", this was skipped over. I could detect and remove the space but a) /2 and / are identical and b) the space is actually used in the formatting to separate the notes. It was placed, in error, before the 2, rather than after it, so, I guess uh:

Code: [Select]
Find:
3\/2([._'A-Za-z]+?)\/([ ]*)2
Replace:
>$1$2

That should work, because I don't believe starting a note with a number of any kind is supported or used, but, if it was, it would be possible for it to malform your file.

Here is the ABC code from the OP post 'treatment':
Code: [Select]
X:20
T:Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe
T:(Septimus Fawcett)
M:4/4
L:1/8
S:Septimus Fawcett
O:Frosterley, Weardale
R:Hornpipe
Z:Boaafb Ellis, 2018
K:D
(3ABc|d>F A>d f>d A>d|f>a d>f d'>b g>b|a>d f>a g>c e>g|
f>B d>f e>A c>e|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>f g>b|
a>d f>a g>A B>c|e2[d2f2][d2f2](3ABc|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>d g>b|
a>d f>a g>c e>g|f>B d>f e>A c>e|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>d g>b|
a>d f>a g>A B>c|e2[d2f2][d2f2]|:a>_b|b>g e>d c>e a>b|
a>f d>B A>F A>f|g>e c>A G>F G>E|D>F A>d f>d d'>c'|(3bag (3fed c>e a>b|
a>f d>B A>F A>f|(3gfe (3dcB A>g e>c|d2[D2d2][D2d2]:|

Now, this produces, in ABC explorer, identical looking results:
(http://i.imgur.com/HbIwrdMm.png) (https://imgur.com/HbIwrdM)
but, the midis sound different, so, that's interesting! Comparing the two midis side by side in Musescore demonstrates the difference pretty clearly:
(http://i.imgur.com/jV5oNUPm.png) (https://imgur.com/jV5oNUP)
Guess that means somebody perhaps isn't following the ABC spec quite right (http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#broken_rhythm)... Oh, the fun to be had in these threads...

And finally: Always heed Lester's advice, and my advice for that matter, whenever you work in an automated way like this, ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP OR WORK ON A COPY, until you are certain that everything is good, and even after that probably since ABC files are tiny.

edit: I felt I should add, I'm aware that this may seem like it is information that will fly very high, over the top of many heads, the point really is a) to try and make sure people think about what may be possible with a computer and b) in a way, give someone an idea of who they could message for assistance, or what kind of things to ask about, if they ever have some grand undertaking set before them.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Roger Hare on December 27, 2018, 05:16:55 PM
1) For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.

2) ...I personally would use something called a regex, or a regular expression, to solve the issues in an automated fashion...

...you need to use special tools to use these kind of searches...

3) ...the midis sound different...

4) ...ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP OR WORK ON A COPY...


Right on!!! There do sometimes arise (unfortunately) situations where delving a little deeper into this stuff pays dividends.

1) I use a dedicated text editor - Notepad or one of its slightly more sophisticated derivatives is quite good. (In extremis, I use
a very old but very powerful text-based editor called ECCE - old Edinburgh computer lags will probably remember it with much affection...)


2) There is a utility called 'grepwin' which can do this job available from the PortableApps web site. Named I guess, after the old
Unix utility 'grep'?

3) Just happened to me five minutes ago. To be specific, a perfectly clear, non-controversial bar of music, when written down in
ABC  and played back sounded extremely dodgy. I had to ever-so-slightly re-write that bar... I put it down to some sort of foul-up
within the ABC utility, being not entirely happy with 9/8...

4) Absolutement, mon general!
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 27, 2018, 05:30:51 PM


Now, this produces, in ABC explorer, identical looking results:
(http://i.imgur.com/HbIwrdMm.png) (https://imgur.com/HbIwrdM)
but, the midis sound different, so, that's interesting! Comparing the two midis side by side in Musescore demonstrates the difference pretty clearly:
(http://i.imgur.com/jV5oNUPm.png) (https://imgur.com/jV5oNUP)
Guess that means somebody perhaps isn't following the ABC spec quite right (http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#broken_rhythm)... Oh, the fun to be had in these threads...


edit: I felt I should add, I'm aware that this may seem like it is information that will fly very high, over the top of many heads, the point really is a) to try and make sure people think about what may be possible with a computer and b) in a way, give someone an idea of who they could message for assistance, or what kind of things to ask about, if they ever have some grand undertaking set before them.

That's because the ABC2MIDI program, that produces the sound, has some behaviours built in that the author thought would be useful. Most are, including the > being played as ratio 2:1 rather than 3:1 despite displaying as if it were 3:1. A rather less desirable quirk is its interpreting ALL R:Hornpipes as if they were dotted, even when written even. You have to override this behaviour by prefixing Hornpipe with something, a stop for example R:.Hornpipe
Thank you for offering to be the Go-To Difficult Operations Manager, btw. :Ph  ;)
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Gena Crisman on December 27, 2018, 06:54:29 PM
2) There is a utility called 'grepwin' which can do this job available from the PortableApps web site. Named I guess, after the old Unix utility 'grep'?

Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh! But yes, it is indeed a win32 version grep. I'd still recommend eg notepad++ or sublime etc instead, which can find/replace in files, since I personally find it much easier to test your query/find the results etc, and often regex syntax can be a bit different across some implementations, and, having fancy text editors like that is something I need for work anyway.

That's because the ABC2MIDI program, that produces the sound, has some behaviours built in that the author thought would be useful. Most are, including the > being played as ratio 2:1 rather than 3:1 despite displaying as if it were 3:1. A rather less desirable quirk is its interpreting ALL R:Hornpipes as if they were dotted, even when written even. You have to override this behaviour by prefixing Hornpipe with something, a stop for example R:.Hornpipe

Ah, interesting! Although, on reflection, I think I kinda agree with the abc2midi guy, on both counts. After all, if you put in R:Hornpipe, then surely you're saying it has hornpipe rhythm rather than writing the whole tune out with >s or dotting everything, like, isn't that's kinda the point of of the R command? Bit of a thread drift tho, but, thanks very much for that, though!
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Anahata on December 27, 2018, 07:11:56 PM
Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh!

It's been around since the early 1970s. Certainly older than Windows, and might be older than you!
Still in in use, though; maybe that's what you were implying. I last used it, er, a few minutes ago...
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 27, 2018, 08:59:57 PM

...surely you're saying it has hornpipe rhythm rather than writing the whole tune out with >s or dotting everything, like, isn't that's kinda the point of of the R command? Bit of a thread drift tho, but, thanks very much for that, though!

Sorry if this is extending a thread drift, but I'm not sure there is, really any such thing as "hornpipe" rhythm. Hornpipes are often played in a broken rhythm, but they are often played in "flat" rhythms as well (although, played well, they are anything but flat) and other types of tunes are played dotted, which is, I think, what Chris is complaining about. Tutor sites, etc., sometimes refer to broken rhythm as hornpipe, but that is a very limited perception of what hornpipes are.

Broken rhythm, rather than hornpipe rhythm, would be a more useful specification.

I read somewhere that the tunes were originally modeled on a horse's trot. No idea if that's true.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 28, 2018, 12:16:28 AM
There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted. The earliest hornpipes in common time that I've come across are from around 1695, which are not dotted. Think Soldier's Joy, Come Ashore Jolly Tar, College Hornpipe etc. The earliest hornpipe that I've ever seen dotted is from circa 1795. It's not that engravers were lazy as there are plenty of other tunes that were written dotted. There are all sorts of hornpipes from the last 350 years, some dotted and some not.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 28, 2018, 01:14:31 AM
There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted...

Just out of curiosity (I've  wondered since I discovered them), is there a known connection between the earlier 3/2 hornpipes and the 4/4 ones that came after?
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: Roger Hare on December 28, 2018, 06:07:09 AM
Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh! But yes, it is indeed a win32 version grep. I'd still recommend eg notepad++ or sublime etc instead, which can find/replace in files, since I personally find it much easier to test your query/find the results etc, and often regex syntax can be a bit different across some implementations, and, having fancy text editors like that is something I need for work anyway.
I should maybe have said "name inspired by the old Unix utility grep". (:)

Yeah - notepad++(*) does it all too. I like grepwin 'cos it seems a bit quicker, and I prefer the interface window  (both very subjective).

(*)Also available from PortableApps.
Title: Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
Post by: ChrisP on December 28, 2018, 11:06:12 AM
There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted...

Just out of curiosity (I've  wondered since I discovered them), is there a known connection between the earlier 3/2 hornpipes and the 4/4 ones that came after?

There doesn't seem to be any link in the sense of many (any?) melodies transferring between 3/2 and common time. When a melody does cross over from 3/2 it generally goes to another triple time signature, like 6/8, 9/8, or 3/4, John of the Green being an example. The link between hornpipe types is in the name, which despite being named for an obsolete wind instrument, refers to *a* dance type.
That in itself is problematic, as back before and into Elizabethan times it referred to a social dance which could be either for a community, a couple, or a solo, in a line, or a circle, with some implication of a showing off element to it. That has continued, and from the 17thC and to the present it has also included Stage Dancing, solo stepping in the pub, and formal competition steps, both clog, hard shoe, sand dance etc. In other words just about everything you can imagine, in every time signature. Really, it is a portmanteau term, and has to be examined as different fashions in different generations, some lingering for a while, and some persisting into the present. The common element is that they are more or less boisterous.
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