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Discussions => Tunes => Topic started by: Henry Piper on January 06, 2019, 04:28:33 PM

Title: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Henry Piper on January 06, 2019, 04:28:33 PM
Does anyone know of a recording of this tune other than those on "Son of Morris" on and "Lost Morris" …   its an intriguing tune that I would like to learn but both these versions have subtle variations and decorations, so that I am unsure of the exact tune, what I need is a straightforward version of the tune with little or no decoration or added "Twiddles" so that I can easily follow the melody line.

For those that don't Know it the tune was collected by Sharp, and is a Morris tune ascribed to the Tradition of Brill, but has no known dance attached to it;.
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Andy Next Tune on January 13, 2019, 12:15:29 PM
We looked at this tune in a workshop about forgotten morris tunes with Squeezy a few years back. We definitely had some dots for it, although I can't find them at the moment.
A PM in that right direction might prove productive  ;D
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Alan Pittwood on January 13, 2019, 08:46:41 PM
This tune as Whole Hog or None is found in:

Frank B Converse's Banjo Instructor without a master (1865) p81   [aka the yellow book]
Frank B Converse's New & Complete Method for the Banjo (1865) p67   [aka the green book]

both of these ( along with many other banjo tutor books from the 1850s-1870s) are available as free PDF downloads from libraries in the USA.

Look for Timothy Twiss on YouTube.   Tim plays this tune in his repertory of minstrel/stroke-style tunes recreated from these tutor books.
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Rees on January 13, 2019, 10:32:42 PM
Thanks for the link to Timothy Twiss. I think the Timothy Twiss version is learned from the Martin Carthy recording.
I once heard a story that Martin had found it in the Vaughan Williams Library but later discovered (after recording) that he had learned it incorrectly.
Urban myth, fake news? Anyway, it's the version that I play.
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 13, 2019, 11:14:05 PM
This tune as Whole Hog or None is found in:

Frank B Converse's Banjo Instructor without a master (1865) p81   [aka the yellow book]


pdf here, but you have to do a bit of work to get the score

https://elib.hamilton.edu/omeka/exhibits/show/banjo/manuals/instructor
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Alan Pittwood on January 14, 2019, 08:03:13 AM
Thanks for the link to Timothy Twiss. I think the Timothy Twiss version is learned from the Martin Carthy recording.
Probably not, Tim Twiss deliberately recreates tunes from tablatures in the late 19C tutor books.

There is the intriguing possibility that Whole Hog/Old Hog came to England through the touring minstrelsy groups.

Here is the abc from Converse's book transposed to the key of D (from E in the original)

X:1
T:Whole Hog Or None
M:2/4
L:1/16
K:D
P:A
d>d|c>AB>G A>FE>D|E>AA>^G A2d>d|c>AB>G A>FE>D|DGz G G2d>d|
c>AB>G A>FE>D|EAz A A2dd|c>AB>G A>FE>D|DGz G G2 z2|]
P:B
G2Bc d3d|e>dc>e d>B A>G|c>AB>G A>FE>D|EAz A A3d|
G2Bc d3d|e>dc>e d>B A>G|c>AB>G A>FE>D|DGz G G4 z2|]
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Matthew B on January 14, 2019, 12:34:05 PM
That's a great tune.  Chris Partington has links to an abc version that he's transposed borrowed from Ruairidh Greig's transcription of Thomas Westrop's 120 Country Dances.  It's a bit simpler that the version Alan posted, in a different key, and in a different time signature.  Apart from that it's exactly the same. 

X:015
T:Whole Hog or None.  WES.015, The
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Country Dance
Q:3/8=110
B:T.Westrop’s 120 Country Dances, 1860’s
Z:VMP-R.Greig 2010
K:C
(g/f/)|e2cd2B|c2AG2c|d2Ad2e|d3-dz (g/f/)|e2cd2B|c2AG2G|c2cc2c|c3-c2||
z|c3e3|g3-gz g|a2ff2a|g2fe2d|c2ce2e|g3-gz g|a2ff2a|"D.C."g3-gz|]
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 14, 2019, 01:01:44 PM
Chris Partington has an abc version that he's transposed from Thomas Westrop's 120 Country Dances.


I think you'll find it was transcribed by Ruairidh Greig!  ;)
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Matthew B on January 14, 2019, 01:33:49 PM
Thanks Pete, multiple corrections now made.  And for anyone who really wants to push the boat out, the Library of Congress has at least two versions of words to go with the tune.  The lyrics haven't aged as well as the melody: https://www.loc.gov/item/amss.cw106650/ (https://www.loc.gov/item/amss.cw106650/), https://www.loc.gov/resource/amss.sb40587b/?st=text (https://www.loc.gov/resource/amss.sb40587b/?st=text)
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: Alan Pittwood on January 14, 2019, 04:01:41 PM
Does anyone know of a recording of this tune other than those on "Son of Morris" on and "Lost Morris" …   

Yes.   Have a listen to:

Early Scottish Ragtime   Vic Gammon & Friends  Fellside Recordings FECD276 (CD, UK, July 29, 2016)

Old Hog or none is the first tune in the set of three in track 15
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: pbsalt on January 14, 2019, 05:24:28 PM
Thanks for posting that. By coincidence I'd just decided I should learn this tune after playing "Son of Morris on" - so the notation will be v handy.
Title: Re: Old Hog or None.
Post by: ChrisP on January 14, 2019, 08:12:56 PM
Quote
That's a great tune.  Chris Partington has links to an abc version that he's transposed borrowed from Ruairidh Greig's transcription of Thomas Westrop's 120 Country Dances.

You can find the whole of Ruairidh's Village Music Project transcription here

http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Westrop/Westrop%20Info.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Westrop/Westrop%20Info.html)