Melodeon.net Forums

Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Winston Smith on March 06, 2019, 03:17:29 PM

Title: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 06, 2019, 03:17:29 PM
Why is there a Melnet Facebook page? (Where there are obviously melodeon.net things which are unavailable to those of us who don't wish to be associated with such an unsavoury organisation.)
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Fred on March 06, 2019, 03:33:11 PM
Because some people like to use Facebook (not understandable to me but hey, who am I to judge).

I'd personally also prefer for others to discuss on here so I can read their thoughts and chime in whenever I feel the need to. However, I do understand that it's up to their own which platform they prefer for the discussion of melodeon related topics.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Theo on March 06, 2019, 03:38:02 PM
As Fred says.

I’ll just add that the melnet Facebook page is not an official extension of this forum.  It was set up and is run independently.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on March 06, 2019, 03:46:45 PM
Because there is, and it has some advantages inasmuch as it is easier to post pictures, and more of them, at one time. They are complementary, and neither is any threat to the other. Different strokes for different folks.

Long live the Luddites  >:E >:E >:E >:E

SJ
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Fred on March 06, 2019, 03:58:26 PM
Because there is, and it has some advantages inasmuch as it is easier to post pictures, and more of them, at one time.

That is indeed a problem that should be adressed rather sooner than later. A new forum software might indeed be timely and if I remember correctly this topic has been brought up in the recent past. We should actually try to migrate the forum to some kind of newer architecture so that basic features like uploading pictures aren't a problem anymore.

They are complementary, and neither is any threat to the other.

No, they are absolutely not complementary. Facebook is not an open platform at all and does not have any interest in collaborating with smaller platforms (like this forum) through open communication standards or through transfer of data. Extensive use of a facebook group and declining use of this forum will result in the death of independent platforms on the internet. Extensive use of facebook is indeed a threat to this forum.

Now let's not dive into this matter any further. I'm here to discuss music and melodeons - and not issues of digitalisation.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 06, 2019, 04:17:55 PM
It does have it's uses.
A little while ago when this site went wobbly, the fb page could keep you informed as to what was going on here.
It has it's uses.
Q
A very infrequent fb user.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: GPS on March 06, 2019, 04:43:10 PM
I didn't know there was a Melnet Facebook page. Now that I do, it won't make the slightest difference.  If there's a demand for it, fine, and good luck to all who sail in her. I know a lot of people spend a lot of time on FB, so clearly it serves a purpose.

Graham
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: folkloristmark on March 06, 2019, 04:55:56 PM
They are EVIL >:E. Do I refer to Facebook or melodeon  :|||:  it depends on your starting point. Long live a free Web :M
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 06, 2019, 05:50:13 PM
Oh dear. It has been going for a while. It's handy when people can't get on here or the server is down, to spread the news.

It doesn't bite. It's not trying to take over the world. It exists alongside this forum, with a understanding that this forum is irreplaceable, and IIRC has actually referred a number of people to this very forum as a source of advice and support. MAD exists there also.
If not complementary, it is supplementary. The content is not the platform.

People discuss melodeons there, too. And some of them - probably most of them - are here as well.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: fc diato on March 06, 2019, 05:59:06 PM
No objections here to a supplementary FB page, but...

I, for one, wish to express my gratitude to the forum moderators/guides/bosses/spirits & guides  for the decision to remain an off-FB forum.  FB might be picture-friendly, but for some reason not always exchange-friendly. I noticed this when a forum in another language migrated from Yahoo to FB. I reluctantly followed. Contributions became shorter, less generous, less helpful, and threads less substantive. In spite of all of FB's self-promotion, it seems the format is less conducive to substantive, respectful conversation than a format such as this one.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 06, 2019, 06:02:37 PM
I think Malcolm has it in a nutshell.....
Q

As I type.... I agree with diato.
I'm glad this hasn't migrated wholeheartedly to fb as it means it's far more civilised for me here.
I'm pleased the Feb page is supplementary.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Dick Rees on March 06, 2019, 06:21:28 PM


Long live the Luddites  >:E >:E >:E >:E

SJ

We modern day Druids and Neo-Luddites have long since felt a disturbance in The Force.  Arise ye Knights of the Melodeon.  "They can take our Internet but they canna take our Freedom!"
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on March 06, 2019, 06:55:19 PM
I might add, that there is a product available called Fluff Busting (FB) Purity, which removes all the adverts, and enables the removal of many features that are of no use to most people. Making FB quite usable.

SJ
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Anahata on March 06, 2019, 09:54:14 PM
I gave up in disgust with trying to join FB when I discovered I'd have to use a fictitious name because of the way they implement their "real names only" policy.
There are other, well known, good reasons to keep away from it.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: playandteach on March 06, 2019, 10:17:12 PM
I have no real profile on Facebook, and only use it for accessing groups (including a lot of work related groups, Edexcel - the exam board - have several forums to unpick their latest syllabuses) [I couldn't bring myself to write: fora and syllabi].
I turn down all friend requests, many from ex-students, and post nothing about myself. I don't check out recommended links, or check other people's likes, so I'm as on the fringe as I can be, whilst using it more than I intended.

I have lots of colleagues (who are real life friends) that I get notices about (as they are in the same groups) but I don't want to see their holiday snaps, or how wonderful their kids are. I do believe that it is partially responsible for much of the increase in dissatisfaction I see with young people, whose real lives can't compete with the air-brushed lives they look at hourly.
I do find it scary how 'insightful' it can be about people I might know, considering how little info I share.
I find it's most useful for signing in to other secure sites quickly (sign-in-with-Facebook seems to be an increasingly common option). There are several groups that I like to check out, including a North East cycle group, CDNE.
I can't imagine that melodeon.net would be anything like the same - there's a lot of trolling even in the good-natured groups.
Having said all that, I'm off to the pub, which is of course an activity fraught with its own dangers. Moderation has never been harder.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 06, 2019, 11:13:18 PM
I created the Facebook group at a time when the forum was prone to suddenly going off line for a while (this was quite a while ago when the forum was using other servers). It was there so members could check in and find out if the forum was offline or their browser/'puter was playing up. It took nearly a year to get to fifty members if I remember correctly but there things tend to grow exponentially.

I was never intended to be an alternative place for discussion, a Facefook group is in fact a hopeless place for a themed conversation beyond a quick question and answer session before it disappears under a flood of new posts. The Melnet group isn't quite at the stage yet but it's getting there. One day I may vapourise it and start again with membership only available by PM application on this forum, or perhaps I'll vapourise it and leave it to someone else to replace it - or not!
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: playandteach on March 06, 2019, 11:40:01 PM
Nice to see that put in context, which is as a solution to a problem most of us didn't know about. I don't know if any of you reading this know the Stanley Holloway 'Brown Boots'.
It's a worthy tale.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 06, 2019, 11:50:41 PM
https://www.goodfuneralguide.co.uk/2012/07/brahn-boots-stanley-holloway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE82P8RxrWA
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Broadland Boy on March 07, 2019, 12:20:34 AM
I noticed it a while back and had a scoot through, assumed it was part and parcel of Melnet (TM) (R) (C) - having seen a number of boxes advertised which did not appear to have been advertised here raised the query if it was a two level operation, which Theo has made crystal clear, I hope those selling Melodea there do the decent thing, otherwise there is already a direct impact on the funding and therefore future proofing of the TRUE Melnet platform.

Keep the flag flying Theo & Clive and FB Melnetters, if it's free, YOU are the product which makes the profits, remember Photobucket and the vanished images of many.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 07, 2019, 08:14:31 AM
Thanks Pete, we now know!
Q
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 07, 2019, 08:39:51 AM
"I created the Facebook group at a time when the forum was prone to suddenly going off line for a while"

Well, that  certainly answers my question, Pete, and thanks for it! As for use in an emergency (well, should anything melodeon related really qualify as an emergency?) it sounds like an ideal solution. My gripe with it is probably purely personal, then; and therefore not really worthy of further discussion on here.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Cooper on March 07, 2019, 10:50:58 AM
To me facebook and forums like this perform really different functions. A forum like this gives room to indepth discussions, which are good to follow by quotations. And they are for everyone to find back too. Lots of information can be found here. Facebook sucks for stuff like that. It's impossible to find anything back that was written over a week ago, and discussions lack depth and often end up in shouting.

But for interaction with the rest of the world. Like promotion for an event, for letting non-folkies listen to beautiful music etc this forum is quite useless, and facebook is pretty valuable. Way easier to let your friends and family know what you are up to, show them where they need to be etc etc. All with just one or two clicks/shares/likes.

Anyway, my take,cheers,
W
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 07, 2019, 01:19:44 PM
It all started in this thread (https://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8109.msg100768.html#msg100768). Yes, it really has been there for seven and a half years!

Edited because I can't count!
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 07, 2019, 01:55:47 PM
Blimey! Well, I think that says it all. If it's been ticking over for 8 1/2 years and no one's noticed, why all the fuss now?
There's always people who are avid facebookers whereas others can't abide facebook.
We're all different!
Q
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: ju on March 07, 2019, 02:04:19 PM
If anyone would like to print their own badge and wear it proudly , feel free 🤭😇
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: mory on March 07, 2019, 02:30:26 PM
Quote "Facebook sucks for stuff like that. It's impossible to find anything back that was written over a week ago"
Actually (and certainly not in defence of FB) before Peter posted about starting the group on FB I went through posts all the way back to 2011 and was able to see when he started it, were any posts lost? I don't know, but there was definitely a wealth of posts on there from then until the present. AtB mory
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 07, 2019, 03:07:08 PM
"why all the fuss now?"
Simply because someone has their "for sale" pictures available on the facebook page, and I cannot view them.

Mind you, although I don't like them, I hear that the facebook shoe shop empire is growing apace!

Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: mory on March 07, 2019, 03:51:26 PM
Thought about joining but I'd have to use my real name of Edward Jennings  ;D AtB mory
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on March 07, 2019, 03:54:55 PM
You could always try Eric Blair, I suppose

SJ
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 07, 2019, 04:10:31 PM
 I say chaps ;D
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Gary on March 08, 2019, 12:23:46 PM
Its ok, really ok to have choices. Fbook has some issues but not much that cannot be side stepped. Heck I get old fashioned paper mailshots and the journey to the re cycling bin is easy. As for privacy and facebook, well its not bad to know that others might know and what others know might not be about you and anyway privacy is perhaps only for a tiny few practical.
Good to have an established back up.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 08, 2019, 02:53:00 PM
Choices are fine, Gary. The more the merrier! However, when you're selling on Gumtree, you wouldn't have your pictures on eBay, would you? Especially if your target market was in a country where eBay doesn't reach.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Theo on March 08, 2019, 03:04:24 PM
It does seem that some members have difficulty with re-sizing images to fit with our maximum size of 400kb per image.  Its not only to conserve file space on our server, but its also an advantage to members viewing images where a full size image from a modern camera or phone can be very large it uses up data allowance unnecessarily, and can also take up an inconveniently large amount of screen size.

There is some advice in the FAQs in the support forum, but that takes a bit of effort to find.  A good solution would be if the forum software could automatically re-size photos.  I don't know if this is possible, but Clive might find a method.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Gena Crisman on March 08, 2019, 03:34:58 PM
(Writing this while Theo was posting so we've said the same thing)

Well, realistically the main issue with that is that if I take a single photo with my smart phone, the file is like 3.6 megabytes, which is almost 10 times larger than the individual file limit on this forum for attachments of 400kb. If I was selling an instrument, I'd want to share like 6-10 photos of the instrument.

If I want to paste those images to facebook or etc, I can just select all those raw images from my hard drive and facebook sorts out the rest. It's real easy.

Or, I can make half a dozen posts on mel net, after messing around with each photo trying to reframe it to keep only the instrment in view, scale the image down so it's a lower resolution, and then play with the jpeg quality level to try and maintain a high enough quality to convey the thing I was taking a photo of without also hiding the context of whatever the reason was I took the photo. Posting them on mel net, it's a lot more work, and people struggle to get it to work well - I've seen a lot of weird low quality photos that met the file requirements but looked like awful green messes.

The reality is, if you have image files served to people across the internet, it increases web traffic a lot - you can only see attachments when signed in to stop bots and random internet traffic from effectively increasing bandwidth costs. Forum posts pages are tiny things by comparison. Mel net's business though is not really in serving photos to people, but, it is a core element of eg ebay and facebook. They've got their ducks in a row to crush those images down as needed and serving those images to people, so, they don't notice any real problems. For example, I pulled a photo I took off that I'd posted to Facebook, and it was now less than 100k. But on inspection, it also looked like crap. But it's facebook, where a large amount of its uses are just blogging about whatever is going on in their perfect life, so, no one really cares about this detail. On ebay, they allow a much larger file size for their images, and thus resolution and quality, as they both serve fewer of them and they are intrinsic to the transaction taking place.

So, a lot of people used to just use photobucket for everything, and didn't really realise how things on the internet can be ephemeral. Businesses have to make money, and being everyone's image host isn't exactly a profitable venture as you pay for all the bandwidth and no one goes to your website any more. If they don't go to your website, you don't have anyone to advertise at anymore, so, you can see why photobucket may have run into trouble. When companies provide you a free service like this, they are often still looking to make money from your existence somehow, be it through ads, or selling information about its users to advertisers (or anyone who asks, really) - data on people and how people use websites is big business now.

Selling a melodeon is usually a pretty temporary though, and I think it would be fine to use whatever the image serving website of our generation would be to post your nice bulky images. These will usually scale your images down as well.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 08, 2019, 03:54:46 PM
"the image serving website of our generation"

Maybe that's where I'm going wrong? I'm pretty conservative in most things, like doing things myself if I possibly can, could that be a generational trait?
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Theo on March 08, 2019, 04:04:15 PM
You can easily scale down your images.  If you have a Mac then the Photos app will do it.   I'm sure Windows must have something similar.  There are websites that offer free image reduction, just search online for 'resize image' and you can find several. 

All these tools are simple to use, but some members find it too technical.  FB, Ebay and other big name websites build it in to their service, so we've tended to become a bit lazy.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on March 08, 2019, 04:11:34 PM
Right click on the photo, click Open With, select paint. among the options listed above the photo is Resize, click on that, and it will come up with a couple of boxes with the actual size of your photo shown. Above that is a couple of options, select the one that says Pixels. Highlight and delete the figure in the bottom of the two size boxes, and type in 400, click OK, and that's all. save the altered image, remember where it has gone to, and Robert is your mother's brother

Sir John
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Gena Crisman on March 08, 2019, 04:18:57 PM
"the image serving website of our generation"

Maybe that's where I'm going wrong? I'm pretty conservative in most things, like doing things myself if I possibly can, could that be a generational trait?

Well, that may be, but, I'm afraid it's a joke referring to the many image sharing websites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_image-sharing_websites#Defunct_photo-sharing_websites) that have risen and fallen over the life of the internet, as well as those that are still running but have moved from the 'everything is free forever!' to 'ok you have to pay us now...'.

I use imgur.

You can easily scale down your images.

Well, yes, you can, but even if you know what you're doing, I do find preserving the thing I had hoped to relate can be difficult, especially if you want to use all 4 attachments. I found it fairly challenging to do the images for this thread (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22920.msg274290.html#msg274290), as I felt they often had a lot of sharp lines and contrast, and the detail was all very important. I didn't want to just give a general impression of what the thing looked like, covered with jpeg artefacts when you zoomed in. If I were selling an instrument, I'd have the same concerns, I'd think. (edit, for example, this is one of the original images https://i.imgur.com/iDjfa1f.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/iDjfa1f.jpg). It would be easier if my tools for saving jpegs had a way to target file size instead of just asking me what quality I want.

However, the point that we're all agreeing on / alluding to is that, the reason someone might post all their photos on facebook is that it's just a lot easier / they know how to do it / they're used to it.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Anahata on March 08, 2019, 04:43:02 PM
Resizing images after they gave been uploaded is certainly possible. I've done it with Imagick, which is a PHP library (which means it's in the same programming language as this forum). Whether it can be integrated into the attachment posting mechanism... I wouldn't know.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: mory on March 08, 2019, 04:57:44 PM
I wonder if it's possible to down size written posts in the same way? Say from 30 lines to 3 that would save space or do people think the clarity would be lost? Just saying  ::)  :||: AtB mory
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: playandteach on March 08, 2019, 05:25:43 PM
I know this doesn't require a serious response, but many of the shorter answers are pats on the back, or quick fixes which are entirely appropriate.
Sometimes more content makes for a good read.
Unlike an unwanted photo, not here of course but on some google searches, where you can't unsee what you have seen, it is easy to gloss over text you don't want to read.
I'm all for content, but then I guess that's obvious.
My personal concern is about posting too frequently, which seems to be my habit. I have a lull when I can't get to it, then find the enjoyment in posting again, but I'm aware that it might devalue my stock.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: Gena Crisman on March 08, 2019, 05:46:35 PM
So long as we don't arrive at the point of 'Please watch my video about how to play a single C note on a Melodeon (23:43)! Don't forget to like and subscribe!', I think we'll be fine.
Title: Re: Melnet Facebook?
Post by: mory on March 08, 2019, 06:02:20 PM
Liked ;D