Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: richard.fleming on March 17, 2019, 12:10:39 PM
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At a session the other day a D/G player, basically a Morris musician, appeared to be trying to get round the difficulty of playing rapid sequences such as triplets by rapid in and out bellows movements rather than fingerwork. I say 'appeared' because I don't know whether it was thought of by the musician as good practice or as the only way they could play the tune. I tried it when I got home; the reeds 'sound' in a different way if you do that, and I'll not disguise that I don't like it. I was wondering if it is approved of in Morris or indeed English folk circles, when technique is being discussed?
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Perhaps he learned on a 1 row?
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Or, perhaps he likes playing up and down the row. For my sins, I prefer that style of playing for morris. If it didn't sound right, maybe he's not very experienced, or playing too fast.
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Or, perhaps he likes playing up and down the row. For my sins, I prefer that style of playing for morris. If it didn't sound right, maybe he's not very experienced, or playing too fast.
Wot he said ^^^^^^
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I think the best melodeon players can switch between push-pull style and cross-row style at will, depending on how they interpret the particular music being played. Neither method is superior or inferior to the other; they're just different, they complement each other and allow you to create different effects. Brian Peters is an absolute master of the two styles.
Rejoice in the fact that the melodeon is an instrument that allows you to do both. (:)
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I can't see that playing on a 1-row would make any difference. You can still do triplets and such-like on a one row using the fingers alone if you want to and - and here's the point - if you think it sounds better. I think the bellows technique means that the notes produced this way by the bellows have a different sound quality from all the other notes in the tune and that is a bit disturbing to my ear. But it is sounding as if people may actually like that technique with the bellows when playing for Morris?
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I can't see that playing on a 1-row would make any difference. Surely one can still do triplets and such-like on a one row using the fingers alone?
Begins to sound as if people may actually like that technique with the bellows when playing for Morris?
Depends on the notes in the triplet surely?
Playing for morris is not a thing, many people play in many ways for morris.
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Not a thing, but maybe a genre?
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Not a thing, but maybe a genre?
I don't think so. I play for two teams and get to see lots of teams. There is a wide variation in styles of playing, in part depending on the type of Morris (Cotswold, Border, Longsword, Molly etc). Also as most of the musicians also play in other settings they bring varied musical backgrounds with them. I am not quite clear if you mean the person was playing fast in/out on the bellows or repeating in the same direction?
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I was assuming (never make assumptions young man) that the OP is talking about up and down the row playing, rather than specifically about triplets and stating 1. my personal preference and 2. why it may not have sounded...as good as it can, based on my assumption. I may well have it wrong. ;D
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I can't see that playing on a 1-row would make any difference. You can still do triplets and such-like on a one row using the fingers alone if you want to .
Well, no, you can't if the triplets contain a note which is in the opposite bellows direction, which in the vast majority of instances is likely to be the case. On a 1-row you have no choice in regard to bellows direction, as each note is available in only one direction.
Can we clarify what you mean by "triplets"? Do you mean a group of 3 notes as part of a melody, such as half a bar of a 6/8 tune, or are you referring to a decorative "twiddle"?
Graham
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Can we clarify what you mean by "triplets"? Do you mean a group of 3 notes as part of a melody, such as half a bar of a 6/8 tune, or are you referring to a decorative "twiddle"?
Graham
I don't really make much distinction between them. In the music I play I think a lot of what you might call 'twiddles' are an integral part of the music. I don't see it as basic tunes plus twiddles, though I do agree that even with a tune where the rolls, crans, triplets and so forth are part of the melody it is possible to add some more if so inclined, if you think it tasteful to do so, which (imho) it often isn't..
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perhaps the box player was mistakenly trying to do a "bellows shake" - something that piano box players use, I'm told
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Just out of interest, Richard, what was the musical genre that the session centred on?
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Irish, so the Morris player referred to may have been playing outside their comfort zone.
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I can't see that playing on a 1-row would make any difference. You can still do triplets and such-like on a one row using the fingers alone if you want to .
Well, no, you can't if the triplets contain a note which is in the opposite bellows direction, which in the vast majority of instances is likely to be the case. On a 1-row you have no choice in regard to bellows direction, as each note is available in only one direction.
Can we clarify what you mean by "triplets"? Do you mean a group of 3 notes as part of a melody, such as half a bar of a 6/8 tune, or are you referring to a decorative "twiddle"?
One a one-row box in D a run of triplets such as
(3gag (3fgf (3efe could be played as written - which would require 9 bellows moves
or they could be (and often are) played as
(3gbg (3faf (3ege - which would require 3 bellows moves
Edited to add: on a C#/D box you could use the outer row f# to play the sequence as written with 3 bellows moves, and on a B/C, you would have to do exactly that.
On a D/G I think you could play it as written in a single pull sequence, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phrase it as you like... but if you're going to play it on the row, you do need to have good bellows technique if it's not going to sound horrid.
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Or, perhaps he likes playing up and down the row. For my sins, I prefer that style of playing for morris. If it didn't sound right, maybe he's not very experienced, or playing too fast.
Wot he said ^^^^^^
seconded!
george
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a couple or even a triplet of further thoughts! How a triplet is played depends on a number of variables including the tuning of he box, i.e. semitone or 4th apart., the number of notes in the triplet, i.e. 1 note or a combination of 2 or3. where a particular triplet occurs in a particular tune I,e, what is the availability of fingers for the job which can be governed by the notes before and after the triplet. The skill of the player eg at very fine bellows control including very rapid but even reversals and/or the strength of the fingers to rapidly eg press and release a button 3 times or similar using more than one button.
And the choice of the individual player as there are no hard and fast rules as to how triplets the playing of should be done.
george
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... How a triplet is played depends on a number of variables including the tuning of he box...the number of notes in the triplet...where a particular triplet occurs in a particular tune...the skill of the player... even reversals and/or the strength of the fingers...
And the choice of the individual player as there are no hard and fast rules as to how triplets the playing of should be done.
All of that, plus no one says you have to do it the same every time, or even every time through.
What I still don't get though, is exactly what was going on on this occasion. My feeling is that the gentleman involved may not have realised what he was letting himself in for.
Two nations divided by a common musical heritage that gets executed rather differently by each. To totally misapply a well known phrase: Vive la difference!
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What I still don't get though, is exactly what was going on on this occasion. My feeling is that the gentleman involved may not have realised what he was letting himself in for.
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By no means. It's just that with genres I know less well I'm less sure of what people are trying/failing/succeeding to achieve. I was genuinely trying to find out if a particular technique was regarded as normal for Morris or a way of getting round not being dextrous enough on the right hand. And of course there's the question of the way the reeds respond/sound when the bellows are used to create the 'ornament' rather than the fingers, and whether that is thought of favourably. So thank you all for your thoughtful and considered responses.
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'bellows' work involving rapid ins and outs where required notes are on the backside of each other requires considerable skill and dextrousness to execute with aplomb and just as much skill as using different buttons. 2 different but legitimate ways of doing it
george
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normal for Morris or a way of getting round not being dextrous enough on the right hand.
OOOH, that's fightin' talk!! >:E
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Normal for Morris?
Is that the "musical" for normal for Norfolk?
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A D/G plays differently compared with a semitone box more usually used for Irish music. Irish music played on D/G, even by those familiar with the genre and style, will usually sound different from it played on a semitone box. Also English music makes less use of ornaments, so there isn't the same attention given to them as there is by Irish players.
English music is usually played in the home keys, which allows for both up-and-down and cross-row playing. As Steve has said, most competent players will use both, but there is no assumption that cross-row is necessarily better, and up-and-down can help to give the music 'bounce', especially for morris. Choosing which to use depends as much on the effect you want to achieve as ease of playing. It may not be a question of lacking dexterity (sometimes playing across the rows is the easier option).
Someone attempting an unfamiliar genre will almost always fail to achieve the 'correct' style, particularly when they are not using the conventional instruments. The same goes for playing English music on a semitone box.
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Someone attempting an unfamiliar genre will almost always fail to achieve the 'correct' style, particularly when they are not using the conventional instruments. The same goes for playing English music on a semitone box.
An interesting reply, which I mainly agree with, though I am not at all sure that one couldn't play Morris dance music on a semitone box and sound 'right', supposing that one wanted to. The player in question played D/G not after weighing up the options but because they hadn't heard of Morris music being played on anything else. But maybe that is how tradition works -a DG is as much a part of the whole as bells and ribbons.
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I can play most of the morris tunes I used to play on D/G on my B/C boxes that have "modern Irish" basses with as good a (fairly rudimentary) left-hand accompaniment, but that's only because the tunes are all in G major. D's a bit trickier on the left hand side of a B/C if you've only got eight buttons there. You can do a lot, but not quite as much as in G.
As for the articulation of the tunes, it's possible to make a B/C sound like a D/G, but it's by no means effortless.
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I can play most of the morris tunes I used to play on D/G on my B/C boxes that have "modern Irish" basses with as good a (fairly rudimentary) left-hand accompaniment, but that's only because the tunes are all in G major.
Over half the tunes we play are in E minor
As for the articulation of the tunes, it's possible to make a B/C sound like a D/G, but it's by no means effortless.
and why would you, if you could have a D/G in the first place?
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I am not at all sure that one couldn't play Morris dance music on a semitone box and sound 'right'
It is of course possible, but as boxer has admitted it won't be effortless. Things which fall naturally on a D/G box and are an intrinsic part of the English sound will require effort and application to play on a different instrument - and vice versa. The same applies to other instruments. For example, the English concertina is in many ways more suitable for Irish music, but a style has developed using C/G anglos and EC players must therefore try to imitate that. Boehm flutes v wooden ones is a similar situation.
Anyone wanting to play morris or other English music will be advised to get a D/G because that is the instrument the style is based around. To play it on anything else will mean making compromises, and whilst you might get close it will be a challenge. Similarly, anyone wanting to play Irish will be advised to get a semitone box (although there is then a debate over which keys). If you want to play French or Cajun you really need something else again to sound right. Horses for courses.
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If I was ever asked to play for the Morris and the only box available was a B/C, I would play in the key of C or Dm.
Surely that would work?
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If I was ever asked to play for the Morris and the only box available was a B/C, I would play in the key of C or Dm.
Surely that would work?
Yes it would, and would sound better in my opinion than playing it in G.
And don't call me Shirley
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If I was ever asked to play for the Morris and the only box available was a B/C, I would play in the key of C or Dm.
Surely that would work?
Yes, playing alone. Border favours bands and these days it tends to be the bigger the better. The only Border Morris band I know of that plays in the C major/D minor is Beltane (other styles of morris are available, of course but border is what I know about).
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'morris' was being danced long before DG boxes were 'invented' so the their suitability is a relatively recent thing. Also there is no single brand of 'morris' but several with different traditions and different music . Cotswold, NOrth West, Border, Rapper etc all come under the broad umbrella of morris and each tradition has its own distinct musical requirements.
Whilst the DG melodeon is indeed and rightly popular there are a goodly number of piano boxes involved and other instruments eg concertina in verieties, whistle, flute, drum, fiddle and maybe the occasional banjo or brass band instrument all contributing to the rich tapestry of 'morris music
As to the suitability of BC boxes they are fine played mostly treble ( unless like me you have one of the rare hohner double rays with 12 stradella (same both ways) bass. And then there was the late Andy Banks from Birmingham who played a genuine Shand Morino BCC# 105 bass box to great effect for a morris side.etc etc etc!
george
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If it was me it would definitely be a way of getting round not being good enough on the right hand!
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A B/C/C# with stradella basses is another thing entirely and offers possibilities which are not available to either the D/G or B/C player.
My point is that there are good reasons why certain types of boxes are preferred for particular styles of music. Whilst that is not to say that they can only be played on those boxes, to play something different will probably lead to differences in playing style which may raise eyebrows or even provoke hostility amongst purists (if you don't believe me, look for the discussions about the suitability of the English concertina for Irish music, which arouses strong passions among ITM purists).
The other point, which is independent of the instrument, is that a musician who is not familiar with a particular style will struggle with some of the nuances, especially when they are improvising how to play them on the fly. A musician who is unused to playing Irish ornaments, who doesn't fully understand exactly how they are played, and is trying to do so on an instrument which may not be best suited to Irish music is unlikely to be able to play them in good style, no matter how competent they may be in their own genre.
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The other point, which is independent of the instrument, is that a musician who is not familiar with a particular style will struggle with some of the nuances, especially when they are improvising how to play them on the fly. A musician who is unused to playing Irish ornaments, who doesn't fully understand exactly how they are played, and is trying to do so on an instrument which may not be best suited to Irish music is unlikely to be able to play them in good style, no matter how competent they may be in their own genre.
Absolutely right. I know an Irish box-player who plays a 4th-apart box (he learned on a 1-row) and sounds spot-on when he's playing in his comfort zone; if I try to play along with him, even though I might be familiar with the tune, there is no way I can mimic what he's doing. Conversely, if I'm playing in my English-style comfort zone, he struggles just as much to stay with me. Nothing to do with technical competence, just familiarity with the nuances of the style.
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If I was ever asked to play for the Morris and the only box available was a B/C, I would play in the key of C or Dm.
Surely that would work?
... or B and C#m >:E
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on an 8 bass BC the um pa bass played throughout the proceedings is only possible in C
george
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on an 8 bass BC the um pa bass played throughout the proceedings is only possible in C
george
not on my GDR era Meteor
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on an 8 bass BC the um pa bass played throughout the proceedings is only possible in C
george
not on my GDR era Meteor
Well, as you yourself said earlier, George, the D/G box is a relatively recent addition to the Morris tradition, so generations of dancers must have managed without um-pa basses pretty successfully.
The other advantage of a semitone box, to my mind, would be that you could play some of the moodier tunes in the original keys (or at least, the keys in which they were printed in the black book). I am thinking of little gems like the Cuckoo's nest in Gm and Old Molly Oxford in C (was Sherriff's Ride in Dm?), which I learned in those lovely moody keys when I played fiddle with Towersey Morris in the 1970s (the main musician at the time was a PA player).
Should I duck now?
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The only Morris team I ever danced with danced to the pipe and tabor of Russell Wortley, so maybe that may help me to say I'm no fan of oom-pah basses anyway without getting too much opprobrium heaped upon me. We didn't need them at all. I just don't see why one should play in the 'wrong' key to make them possible.
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To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?
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To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?
You could always just not read the thread and leave us who may or may not be interested to carry on.
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I actually find this discussion interesting. It gives us (me, anyway) an insight into how others think, feel and play music of their own genres and traditions. Anything which helps friendship and consensus is good, in my opinion.
Edward - if you find the thread boring, you don't have to read it.
Edit - I see Lester has said much the same thing while I was typing my own reply.
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on an 8 bass BC the um pa bass played throughout the proceedings is only possible in C
george
...so generations of dancers must have managed without um-pa basses pretty successfully.
Just because your preferred keys are DG and their related minor modes doesn't mean you are going umpa, umpa , umpa!
Um Pa bass is an option, and there's nought wrong with it, purr say, but it's not all, or even most of what of what happens, down our way, in the darkest depths of Devon, amongst the primitive savages of the border morris fraternity.
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Thanks both, that is certainly the obvious solution to my own misgivings. (But it's not really, as I feel compelled to read everything on here, whether it's boring or beyond my experience or understanding anyway!)
Nevertheless, I fear an underlying sense of a determination to "win" this "battle of the boxes" which could well lead to an unwanted unpleasantness on an otherwise welcoming forum. But I'll bow to wiser counsel, as ever.
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The melodeon, button accordion, accordion diatonique or whatever you want to call it comes in a verieghty of tunings and is played in many different (all ''correct'') ways in many countries. For what is with a few exeptions a small compact instrument it is wonderfully versatile and very much 'each to his own' in the way it is played.
Whilst it is, particularly in DG form, highly suitable for rhythm driven morris it is , even in DG form, suitable for lots of other musical genres albeit with some ingenious 'fakiing' or ? re arranging tunes to get round its limitations, and there the fun lies.
preferences but not entrenchment?
george :||: :|glug ;)
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I started this thread out of curiosity. I hope what I've brought to it has been constructive - as someone from what is clearly a minority on this forum, I may have a different perspective. We all know that whatever tradition we play in the box has the potential to be delightful or to make a racket. I started off playing morris, I understand the attraction, I moved on to ITM because I liked it more and found it a lifetime challenge, that's all.
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The only Morris team I ever danced with danced to the pipe and tabor of Russell Wortley
You and me both! (danced to Russell's playing , anyway - it wasn't my only morris team by a long way).
so maybe that may help me to say I'm no fan of oom-pah basses
The thing with the pipe and tabor is that the tabor is an important part of the combination, which implies that it would be useful to have something going on with the melodeon basses when playing for morris, but the emphasis should be much more on rhythm than harmony.
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As far as I can remember Russell Wortley's rhythm on the tabor was fairly light and simple, and I have always assumed - perhaps wrongly - that he went back far enough to have serious roots - or connections, anyway - in the tradition. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?
As for George, his replies suggest to me a reasonable, amiable and tolerant position. Stiamh doesn't come across as entrenched either; another reasonable man I would say, judging by his posts. And now you know I was a Morris dancer once, maybe you'll give me the benefit of the doubt too?
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Richard, I'm having trouble seeing you as a Morris dancer :M :M :M ;)
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My point is that there are good reasons why certain types of boxes are preferred for particular styles of music. Whilst that is not to say that they can only be played on those boxes, to play something different will probably lead to differences in playing style which may raise eyebrows or even provoke hostility amongst purists (if you don't believe me, look for the discussions about the suitability of the English concertina for Irish music, which arouses strong passions among ITM purists).
I find that more often than not, the segmentation of instruments for specific music styles is fairly recent. Saying that is not really a criticism, it's just that we went from some kind of tinkering (it's especially true for accordions, which were really easy instruments to play, compared with violin or other reed instruments) to a relatively rigid academism in a very short period of time. All that combined and I feel that « suitability » is kind of an irrelevant criterion to put the debate on. For instance there's as much playing style difference between Dermot Byrne, Danny O Mahony or Joe Burke (yes, I know, B/C is not C#/D, etc.) as between a semitone-apart box and what you would have if you'd play ITM on a fourth-apart box. So, rather than really putting the debate on the music itself, it's rather a "discussion" that allows some people to be in the position of being the prescriptor of good taste, I think (not that I'm implying that it's what anyone here is doing, it's a general observation).
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I started this thread out of curiosity. I hope what I've brought to it has been constructive.
The discussion has been constructive, but I think it would have been more useful if we had had a clearer idea of what was actually being talked about. Richard, in the first post you mentioned triplets but as others pointed out, that could mean a variety of things. If you gave us an example of a tune and a particular passage in a tune that caused you to raise the subject, we could have had a more focused discussion of the technical issues involved and how to approach them on different systems. (I did try to home in on this aspect earlier, but nobody followed up (:) )
The thing is, when not enough precise information is provided everybody can easily be talking at cross purposes - the story of the four blind men and the leg of the elephant comes to mind... :|glug
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So, rather than really putting the debate on the music itself, it's rather a "discussion" that allows some people to be in the position of being the prescriptor of good taste, I think (not that I'm implying that it's what anyone here is doing, it's a general observation).
If you are a musician you have to deal in what you at least think is 'good taste' unless you are going to slavishly follow a traditional style. The quote above uses the word 'prescriptor' in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable, because it implies telling others what is in good taste; but we as musicians must surely always be dealing in what we think is good taste, unless it's more a question of being able to play the bloody tune at all, as it often is with ITM, and we must sometimes discuss this with each other, surely?
As for Joe Burke et al there's a whole minefield of discussion there about politics and class and nationalism in the discussion of which style to play. Just the words 'I play C#/D' places you in a particular place in that debate.
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Indeed, the concept of beauty is at the core of any artistic activity, I do not question this. I fear I was not sufficiently clear: I think that focusing the debate on which system you use is irrelevant in this respect. It's more often than not a means to divert the question of music and debate technicalities that, in the end, do not really matter (IMO).
I used the word 'prescriptor' purposely to describe what you say, because I think that in the melodeon world we're way too focused on the systems we use, on rearguard concerns about whether or not 3-rows are diatonic instruments, and so forth. The experience I have in such debates is that such arguments on accordion system very rarely serves the purpose of discussion the beauty in art. Add to that identity concerns (which often permeates traditional music), and I'm not at all sure the conditions of debate are very clear.
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I can only play 4th apart boxes, and my skill level is nowhere as good as a typical Irish session player.
I do try though and a little serious effort is starting pay.
Triplets still make me stumble though and I can't work out why.
In "boys of bluehill" I manage reasonably well but in the change to triplets in a couple of bars on the second b I always lose the rythmn. Only those triplets, none of the others.
I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
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As a mostly on the row player some places it feels better and sounds better IMO to do a ornament with the bellows.
Eg. The Sailors bonnet reel the A part it might be noted A2 FA but played
ABA FA I think this is how a fiddle player does it ? Well I seen it noted this way and I find this easier.
I believe most would do AdA FA for that part on the push and some other combination could be done.
You can’t really do this ABA on the push or pull on a semitone so it is good to know how to use the bellows.
But if you have a DG you could do it on the push, I suppose.
Just tossing an example in to this conversation, I hope its not distracting.
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I can only play 4th apart boxes, and my skill level is nowhere as good as a typical Irish session player.
I do try though and a little serious effort is starting pay.
Triplets still make me stumble though and I can't work out why.
In "boys of bluehill" I manage reasonably well but in the change to triplets in a couple of bars on the second b I always lose the rythmn. Only those triplets, none of the others.
I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
Are you doing ( BCd) ? Again for me quick change easy here your addding a button but basically climbing the scale. Practice the part starting on the A might help, it comes quickly thereafter.
Extended part of the run up to my ear.
I find it hard to fit all these notes in when the rhythm is not quite Irish hornpipe that is in my head.
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Yes.
It's easy in a run, but those three in that tune just get me.
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I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
Dave Mallinson has written many tutor books for D/G melodeon (but many of you know that...) and he's more than happy leading ITM sessions... :|glug
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I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
Dave Mallinson has written many tutor books for D/G melodeon (but many of you know that...) and he's more than happy leading ITM sessions... :|glug
Listen to Johnny Connolly on YouTube on the 1-row melodeon. If you can do that on a 1-row I guess you can do even more with a DG which some people play as if it is 2 1-rows in the same box anyway.
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I'm quite aware of my inadequacies.
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Dave Mallinson has written many tutor books for D/G melodeon (but many of you know that...) and he's more than happy leading ITM sessions... :|glug
Too right. I remember trying to keep up in one of his sessions at Fylde Festival a few years back - I retired to the bar........ :|glug
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Right, I seem to have got the better side of those pesky triplets now, and looking at a copy of the dots I see I should have been doing them in the A music too. So much for learning by ear!
Now I have the same problem in the Marquis of Lorne, and this seems much harder to get over.