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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Peadar on March 25, 2019, 02:07:56 PM

Title: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 25, 2019, 02:07:56 PM
As a style of playing what exactly does "Press and Draw" mean?

Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 25, 2019, 02:26:13 PM
It's a term used by B/C players, or rather a term used since the B/C style became popular in Irish music, to refer to anyone playing a box with a D row.  ;)
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: george garside on March 25, 2019, 02:47:17 PM
is that with reference to playing '' on the (D) row''  rather than playing D using both rows as on a BC box ??

george
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 25, 2019, 03:32:17 PM
As a style of playing what exactly does "Press and Draw" mean?

Regardless of which key your box is tune in, it means playing as if in one-row style, i.e. no cross-rowing. If your box has more than one row, then just play a tune using a single row. if you have a one-row box, then you will be playing in P&D style anyway because there's no other way of doing it! 
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 25, 2019, 05:43:23 PM
Thanks to all, that makes it clear....I came across the term in a quotation of Jackie Daly  describing John J. Kimmel's style of playing. But also explaining that he (Jackie Daly) himself played that way.
(Maire Ni Chaoimh, PhD thesis, 2010)

https://ulir.ul.ie/bitstream/handle/10344/1616/2010_Ni%20Chaoimh.pdf?sequence=6

1905 recording of John J Kimmel playing Schottiche medley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkZ-9A1rRQs

And a remastering (?) of an early Peter Wyper recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh8iqDCg4DM

Which also goes at a brisk pace.

Peadar
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: rees on March 25, 2019, 06:40:05 PM
Press and Draw also applies to 2 row boxes i.e. Jackie Daly plays C#/D.
So, as Stiamh says, anything with a D row but you would normally grab a C natural for G tunes and  G# for A tunes plus any other mad notes you wish.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 25, 2019, 07:24:17 PM
So you get the idea Peadar. Really though it's a term that only makes sense in terms of the contrast between the older style of playing and B/C, and mainly I would say older style of two-row playing, as Rees mentions, because there's no need to say anything about a one-row! 

B/C is sometimes referred to being played "on the draw" because - in the key of D at least - you have a run of 5 notes that can all be played on the pull. So B/C players congratulated themselves on having transcended the limitations, on having got beyond press-and-draw. The assumption seems to be one of pity for the poor old-style players who have to do all that tiresome bellows heaving, LOL. 

But the concept doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. As soon as you get into other keys B/C becomes almost as much a press and draw machine as a C#/D (G major is very much a "press" key on B/C and more of a "draw" key on C#/D), and whatever lovely fluency you have in Am on a B/C, well it's right there for you in Bm on C#/D.

Also, so-called press-and-draw players don't stick to pressing and drawing (e.g. Jackie Daly and Tony MacMahon often play B/C style) and B/C players don't stick to playing on the draw (Joe Burke and others like to play certain D tunes in C), and younger players like Dermot Byrne and Sharon Shannon can't really be put into either category. So the term is of pretty limited usefulness IMO!  :|glug
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 25, 2019, 09:41:08 PM
I am starting to get the impression that D was the preferred melodeon key in Ireland in the days of the 1 row.

I was taken with David Hanrahan's description (intro to "The Box") of the one row melodeon as having a unique rythm. One aspect of this seems to be that since the same volume of air has to go in and out of the box, you tend to play draw notes more loudly in a passage with mainly press notes and vica versa.

I do wonder whether the very fast pace at which Kimmel and Wyper played in their earliest recordings was more to do with getting enough volume out of the melodeon to activate the purely mechanical recording needle than optimisation of the speed of the music for dancing. The power output of the bellows is quite literally = (P x S x A) / t , where P= gauge pressure of air in bellows, S = Travel distance of stroke, A = cross sectional area of the bellows and t= time of individual stroke.The faster the bellows move the higher the gauge pressure .

Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 25, 2019, 10:27:44 PM
I see why you asked the question Peadar. The string "press and draw" occurs 43 times in Máire Ní Chaoimh's thesis! Also, once you get past the first few occurrences, which specifically concern the "melodeon" (one-row), practically all the references are to players of two-row systems, which bears out my original reference to any box with a D row (which should perhaps be "any box with a row used as a D row", to allow for D/C#, D/D# and C/C# systems).
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 25, 2019, 10:37:54 PM
I am going to take a guess that 42 of those references are after page 200, since that's roughly where I have got to so far!
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: rees on March 25, 2019, 11:52:32 PM
I am starting to get the impression that D was the preferred melodeon key in Ireland in the days of the 1 row.

And still is, very much so!
See modern melodeon players, Emma Corbett, Bobby Gardiner, Johnny Connolly, Brendan Begley, etc.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: richard.fleming on March 26, 2019, 08:34:38 AM
I think much of the stuff about how much you use the bellows when playing 'press and draw' is of limited relevance. Especially if you are playing in the full range of keys available and used in ITM. For a long time Joe Burke's style of playing  - brilliant in it's way, you have to say at this point  - dominated Irish box playing. Press and draw is, in my view, about leaving behind that very smooth and highly ornamented style for a way of playing that is seen as a return to an older and perhaps more authentic style of playing, when your ornaments occur in particular places to give a snap and a lift to the tunes and are not, as with Joe Burke, pretty well wall-to-wall. You can't really do the Joe Burke thing on a C#/D, but it is more about people who wanted to leave the Joe Burke style behind signalling this by their move to the C#/D, which move also gives a clue to the historic players who inspired them. There was a time when most young players sounded like Joe Burke and played his tunes, and it was high time that went, I think it was very samey, a bit mechanical and ultimately boring.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Squeaky Pete on March 26, 2019, 09:05:35 AM
I've found a few Joe Burke videos on YouTube and I can hear the intricacies in his playing. I can't really see what he's doing though.
Can you explain how this relates to press and draw, and what box he plays. Has he always played like this or is this a fiollow on from one row playing?
I ask as someone who had an interest in ITM when I was young, but has been with players in the English tradition for 40 or more years.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 26, 2019, 10:17:42 AM
I've found a few Joe Burke videos on YouTube and I can hear the intricacies in his playing. I can't really see what he's doing though.
Can you explain how this relates to press and draw, and what box he plays. Has he always played like this or is this a fiollow on from one row playing?
I ask as someone who had an interest in ITM when I was young, but has been with players in the English tradition for 40 or more years.

Could write you an essay about this but the information is all out there.


I recommend you download and read Máire Ní Chaoimh's PhD thesis (https://ulir.ul.ie/bitstream/handle/10344/1616/2010_Ni%20Chaoimh.pdf?sequence=6), which Peadar linked to above.

If that's too much study to take on, Steve Chambers' potted history of Irish box playing is also very informative: https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/2347-irish-button-boxes/

If that is too much, here's my potted history: George Jones invented the C/C#, Peter Wyper invented inside-out playing of the C/C# and then the B/C, Peter Wyper begat Paddy O'Brien and Paddy O'Brien begat Joe Burke. (:)
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 26, 2019, 11:29:05 AM
ITM?
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Graham Spencer on March 26, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
ITM?

Irish Traditional Music (I guess!)
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 26, 2019, 09:16:15 PM
What I am trying to play is "Ceol Gaidhealach" ....which describes accurately old highland music, in which words- in Gaelic- invariably are part of the original composition.
It has sometimes been claimed that the linguistic aspect of this music had no merit - and there was a fashion from the late 18th to the early 20th century for dumping the words when traditional tunes were taken down by collectors and more often than not set in fiddle keys. This practice seems to have been common in both Scotland and Ireland. (I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music)

Accenting of the first syllable of words is a feature of Scottish Gaelic speech but accenting of second syllable of words is a feature of Irish Gaelic speech. If you  play ceol Gaidhealach on a one row (with minimal air button) the rise and fall of volume potentially provides accenting of the musical phrases which may run across, counter and/or syncopate with the words.

In a port-a-beul the words carry the tune, in a song (oran) the melody (fonn) carries the words. Port-a-beul (Tune from mouth) is in essence sung music for dancing.

I am looking forward to finding how this works out - from the perspective of a middle aged mediocre Gaelic speaking singer/country/ceilidh dancer trying to establish a small repertoire of accordion songs/tunes. I have already learned that if I want to learn a tune on the bocsa-ciuil I first have to learn to sing at least the chorus and one verse.

Oh Yes! The instrument I will be using is a 1 row in G. It seemed the most suitable because it reflects the keys in which many puirt have been set.

Tha mi, mar a thuirt am fear eile, "A' sireadh Spórs".

Peadar
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: gettabettabox on March 26, 2019, 11:27:18 PM
A “bothy box.”
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: richard.fleming on March 27, 2019, 07:03:24 AM
What I am trying to play is "Ceol Gaidhealach" ...
Peadar

Do you have any references to this music that I (we) could look up?
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 27, 2019, 10:29:05 AM
Quote
Do you have any references to this music that I (we) could look up?

Not quite sure what you mean but if you want to get a taste of Ceol Gaidhealach you could do worse than listen to any programme from "Mire ri Mor", BBC Radio nan Gaidheal, 10.00-12.00  Monday-Friday. Specifically listening out for the unaccompanied solo voice pieces.

The definitive collection of Puirt-a-beul is Keith Norman MacDonald's which was published in the 1901 and reprinted in 1931. He also gives the puirt in tonic solfa notation.

There are literally hundreds of booklets of Gaelic songs, prescribed for various Mod competitions over many years- these usually include at least some puirt a beul.

I would also recommend Allan MacDonald "Dastirum" ISBN 978-0-9546729-1-1

Both KN MacDonald and Alan MacDonald a hundred years apart  are well known for their view that puirt-a-beul is generally sung too fast. In highland (and Scottish country- which derives it's footwork from Highland steps) dancing there is a lot of leg movement and this limits the speed at which dances can be enjoyed. The tongue can generally move faster than the leg!
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Chris Rayner on March 27, 2019, 01:02:47 PM
The tongue can generally move faster than the leg!

Oh splendid.  I shall steal this for future use.  Not sure how, but it has strong appeal.🙂
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Peadar on March 27, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
Quote
A “bothy box.”

That's a good analogy apart from bothy music being on the Doric (English) speaking side of the pale.

Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 28, 2019, 03:36:30 AM
As a style of playing what exactly does "Press and Draw" mean?
It's a term used by B/C players, or rather a term used since the B/C style became popular in Irish music, to refer to anyone playing a box with a D row.  ;)
There were plenty of P&D players playing B/C boxes as well!
In fact that would have contributed to a general view that P&D is inferior as a technique to B/C proper.
In a session situation, a box player playing along the C row would have made life unpleasant for fiddle and flute
players.
Nowadays, as C#/D boxes are more readily available, it is not a problem.
But still, in certain quarters P&D is regarded as being a poor relation to full-blown B/C style.
Some will argue that it is fit only for those who can't hack B/C, or are lazy, or lack talent or ambition.
There are even those who will never take P&D seriously, even though there are some excellent P&D players
around.

Regardless of which key your box is tune in, it means playing as if in one-row style, i.e. no cross-rowing. If your box has more than one row, then just play a tune using a single row. if you have a one-row box, then you will be playing in P&D style anyway because there's no other way of doing it!
That doesn't really fit with the Irish method of P&D. Making use of the second row to facilitate ornamentation,
playing in different keys, smooth playing, etc., is integral to the system.
A one row box in Ireland is a melodeon. You wouldn't refer to a melodeon player as a P&D player.

....I came across the term in a quotation of Jackie Daly  describing John J. Kimmel's style of playing.
I hesitate to disagree with the great Jackie Daly, but I would not regard John J. Kimmel as a P&D player.
He was a (brilliant) melodeon player as far as I am concerned.

.... So the term is of pretty limited usefulness IMO!  :|glug
I don't mean to take this one sentence out of context (I wouldn't disagree with your analysis), but I believe the
term is still very relevant today, even though we have moved on a long way from the days of auld fellas playing
along the C row on a B/C box.
A P&D player can be a very different animal to a B/C player. Their respective repertoires will usually be very different (once you make your way beyond the session standards).
You can tell a lot about the person on the basis of which system they play.

...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...
Chreid Séamus Ennis nach feidir ceol gaelach na h-Eireann a chasadh í gceart gan tuiscint a bheith agat ar an teanga ghaeilge.
Tá dlúthcheangal idir na foinn mhála agus na h-amhráin ar an sean-nós go h-áthrithe a deir sé.

 
 
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 28, 2019, 05:14:59 AM
... You can't really do the Joe Burke thing on a C#/D...

True Richard. Very true. If you are trying to play your C#/D in the same keys as Joe plays on his B/C that is.
But it's a very different story if you play B/C fingering on your C#/D, as the brilliant and very underrated
box player Larry Egan demonstrates here on an old C#/D Paolo. Enjoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjIIhjWica4).
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: smiley on March 28, 2019, 06:55:09 AM

You can tell a lot about the person on the basis of which system they play.


"Every cripple has his own way of walking"  - Brendan Behan
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: richard.fleming on March 28, 2019, 07:32:50 AM
...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...
Chreid Séamus Ennis nach feidir ceol gaelach na h-Eireann a chasadh í gceart gan tuiscint a bheith agat ar an teanga ghaeilge.
Tá dlúthcheangal idir na foinn mhála agus na h-amhráin ar an sean-nós go h-áthrithe a deir sé.
For the benefit of Sassenachs etc 'Seamus Ennis believed that you can't play Irish music properly if you don't understand the Irish language, and he also says there's a close connection between slow airs and traditional songs sung in Irish.' (Correct me Pearse if I've missed some nuances). I've no problem with the second part, and I can see the attraction of the first part. You could argue that you can't be properly Irish if you don't understand the language. But I think a lot of musicians would dispute that view.
As for the Larry Egan clip, can anyone tell me what key that is? I can play it easily enough on a C#/D and it's a long time since I played B/C. It doesn't feel particularly like 'B/C fingering' to me, just C#/D in a key I can't name.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: rees on March 28, 2019, 08:22:20 AM
...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...

As for the Larry Egan clip, can anyone tell me what key that is? I can play it easily enough on a C#/D and it's a long time since I played B/C. It doesn't feel particularly like 'B/C fingering' to me, just C#/D in a key I can't name.

I think it's G sharp, so it would be played in A position but on the outside row.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: richard.fleming on March 28, 2019, 08:31:14 AM
It's on the D row on my box, Rees,  with just one F# from the outside row, whatever that makes it
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 28, 2019, 10:54:11 AM
The tune is normally played in G. Play it B/C style on a C#/D and it comes out in A.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Barlow on March 28, 2019, 02:39:01 PM
(Maire Ni Chaoimh, PhD thesis, 2010)

https://ulir.ul.ie/bitstream/handle/10344/1616/2010_Ni%20Chaoimh.pdf?sequence=6

A bit off-topic:
That's a hefty document and there is within some lovely information and references. I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this? (I couldn't find any in the text)
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Stiamh on March 28, 2019, 06:04:01 PM
I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this?

I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak - he invariably says "B'n'C" (but never "C-sharp'n'D"). And since Máire spent quite a bit of time with Jackie in the 1990s at least, she may well have got the expression from him.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: tirpous on March 28, 2019, 07:50:36 PM
Quote
I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak

So it is used on a Daly basis ...  8)
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Barlow on March 29, 2019, 01:30:51 AM
I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this?

I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak - he invariably says "B'n'C" (but never "C-sharp'n'D"). And since Máire spent quite a bit of time with Jackie in the 1990s at least, she may well have got the expression from him.

Apologies for drifting into etymology, and perhaps my OCD:
Maybe it is a three syllable thing. I have never consciously heard the instrument called 'B and C'. Always just B/C. It's just that the phrase is so prominent in the writing it is as if it is intentional to make a point, particularly when it is so often in the same sentence as 'C#/D' .

(Anyway...I shall now go and concentrate on actually playing some music, rather than be distracted by such matters)

Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Theo on March 29, 2019, 08:02:22 AM
I’ve often heard “B and C” when players speak about their box,  but only from Irish people or players in the Irish tradition.  I’ve also heard “C and D” in talking about C#D, though that is not common.
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 29, 2019, 10:36:41 AM
It's a function of the Irish language. It doesn't make sense to say B/C in Irish. Properly it's B agus C.
As a consequence, upon translation it becomes B and C (https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/134936/files/65193696/pj-hernon-learn-to-play-the-b-and-c-button-accordi.jpg).

Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 29, 2019, 01:26:59 PM
Seamus Ennis believed that you can't play Irish music properly if you don't understand the Irish language, and he also says there's a close connection between slow airs and traditional songs sung in Irish.' (Correct me Pearse if I've missed some nuances). I've no problem with the second part, and I can see the attraction of the first part.

Séamus Ennis believed it was imperative that one should have an understanding of the Irish language in order to do the playing of slow airs proper justice. He particularly referenced the playing of Conamara sean-nós songs.
Tony MacMahon, who was tutored by Ennis, would hold the same belief.
Evidently, Joe Burke also gives credence to this viewpoint.
The following is an excerpt from his website biography;
'Joe traces the sources and melodic forms of Irish Music back to the rhythms and cadences of Irish speech and language, and feels that they have an intimate relationship with each other'.
All of these musicians were/are eminent persons of authority in the Irish tradition.
I happen to agree with them.

Quote
You could argue that you can't be properly Irish if you don't understand the language. But I think a lot of musicians would dispute that view.
I'm sure they would.


 
Title: Re: Press and Draw
Post by: george garside on March 30, 2019, 05:05:06 PM
Whatever! but speaking as one who 'faces both ways' it is good to have some 'semitone' discussion on the forum!

george  ;D :||: :|||:
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