Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Pat McInnis on March 27, 2019, 04:20:58 PM
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Technically I'm not learning alone since I have this great community on my side (I hope). I've weighed the options for getting some proper lessons for learning the "right way" but it just isn't in the cards for me. At some point I am hoping that it will work out but for now I'm just going to have to get comfortable with my machines and maybe learn the odd tune. My plan thus far was to take on C#D system since I mostly like ITM but since I'm only really playing along the rows right now, I'm not sure that it really matters until I start playing across the rows or with other people. Please correct me if I'm wrong. My functional old Hohner collection currently consists of C#D, GC and CF. The GC is probably in the best tune, so it seems to get the most play time.
Long winded? yes, yes I am.
As far as learning tools go I was checking out Bernard Loffet's page that has clear, printable songs and tunes that have push/pull direction and and notes but it may still be beyond me. Are there any other good online tutorials that you good people would suggest?
I do play every day like a good obsessed player but playing scales is a tad boring and I only know two tunes that I just keep trying in different keys. Any suggestions for direction would be appreciated.
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I don't know too much about ITM, but I think you should learn more tunes rather than just scales. Listen obsessively to the players you like best and pick something that sounds on the simpler side and try to learn it. Do you have any Irish sessions nearby that you could attend? Find out what some of the standards are at your local session and work on it so you can eventually play with others. But I think listening as much as possible is important because it will develop your instinctual feel for the rhythms and ornamentation of the music you want to play.
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We are so lucky to live in the time of YouTube. There are some great tutorials - some free, others not. Some maybe even wise to stay clear of. I had a fantastic experience with Paul Young http://www.paulyoungfolk.co.uk/ when after commenting on a few of his performance videos and relating that I was still learning he invited me to check out his page. He offers lessons via skype (which would be difficult for me) but also offers tutorials by song title. I purchased a few and have been practicing - and of course have the videos to review any time I want. I'm definitely going back for more. I don't think there are many resources of that caliber in the midwest USA, so this is perfect for me. And of course you can't beat the "song of the month" thread...
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In short - most Itm is in D, some is in G. Your c#/d box is perfect. Don't learn scales, learn tunes. Learn 3 or 4 or 5 together, and you will enjoy the learning. Easy ones first, my easier ones are:
The Rolling Wave
The Kerfunken Jig
Humours of Glendart
Saddle the Pony
The Session website is all about Itm and will give you lots of ideas. You will easily find lists of common session tunes.
Just my opinion. Best of luck
Tiposx
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Great advice so far. As far as playing scales goes, I'm mostly doing them to work on my finger dexterity and tune me ear to the keys more than anything. I play tin whistle, so the tunes I've learned so far have been mostly adapted from the ones that I already know on the whistle. I'm not sure if this is a good habit or not. I've read a lot here about people warning against getting stuck in a rut of only playing down the rows and not across. Others suggest playing a single row then adapting to cross row playing. Lots of opinion on the subject it seems. I'm not even considering basses. Hah
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Stiamh Ionas is a regular contributor here and knows his way around the C#/D system.
Follow his excellent tutorials here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c)
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Stiamh Ionas is a regular contributor here and knows his way around the C#/D system.
Follow his excellent tutorials here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c)
I have definitely followed his tutorials. Many of them are slightly too advanced for me but I'm getting there. The idea of just watching finger movements to learn is very foreign to me but it sounds like that's the norm.
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Good advice! From Rees.
ITM includes, on ( up and down )the row too! And many have adapted to a two row system from a one row.
Add some stuff to your practicing scales ( watch videos above) and listen as Jesse suggested.
Add more tunes you know from the whistle if possible.
Stiamh Ionas is a regular contributor here and knows his way around the C#/D system.
Follow his excellent tutorials here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c)
I have definitely followed his tutorials. Many of them are slightly too advanced for me but I'm getting there. The idea of just watching finger movements to learn is very foreign to me but it sounds like that's the norm.
I wouldn’t say watching videos for finger movement is the norm , it might help ( usually you can’t see the part you want or whatever)but knowing the tune and which button to push for the sound you want is key.
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I wouldn’t say watching videos for finger movement is the norm , it might help ( usually you can’t see the part you want or whatever)but knowing the tune and which button to push for the sound you want is key.
I see what you did there. haha. Simple, easy instruction so that I can get to work is all I ask. I know how to play a bunch of Irish tunes and songs on the whistle so I'll probably just go that route I guess.
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Pat,
Like you I am "going it alone" - got my first melodeon oin January.
I am building up my melodeon repertoire by transferring tunes from the fiddle....this isn't going to get me anywhere fast because my total repertoire of memorised melodies is about 10. Tops.
Playing across the rows doesn't concern me because I am playing 1 row instruments
So far I have more or less got
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.
Siuthad a'Bhirlinn/Speed Bonny Boat
Thoir mo shoraidh dhan Taobh Tuath
Johnny Todd (Token English folk song- and the only one that I have managed to get the left hand to join in on)
Birlinn Ghoraidh Crobhain
Gleannan ri Taobh Loch Liobhainn
It takes me a good six weeks to learn a melody of eight bars so I am not by any stretch of the imagination a quick learner....and then there's the deep end.
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I see what you did there. haha. Simple, easy instruction so that I can get to work is all I ask. I know how to play a bunch of Irish tunes and songs on the whistle so I'll probably just go that route I guess.
Within my own limitations that approach works for me- I am mostly transferring Gaelic tunes I previously learnt on the fiddle...but also rather oddly finding one or two tunes (c/o Primary School and the awe inspiring i.e. utterly terrifying, Miss Harnwell. ) in my head which I have now succeeded in getting onto the melodeon.
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Pat,
Like you I am "going it alone" - got my first melodeon oin January.
I am building up my melodeon repertoire by transferring tunes from the fiddle....this isn't going to get me anywhere fast because my total repertoire of memorised melodies is about 10. Tops.
Playing across the rows doesn't concern me because I am playing 1 row instruments
So far I have more or less got
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.
Siuthad a'Bhirlinn/Speed Bonny Boat
Johnny Todd
Birlinn Ghoraidh Crobhain
For me it's all about putting in the work. I've been focusing on building and tuning old boxes to try and understand them better. Now it's time to buckle down!!
Gleann Taobh Loch Liobhan
(Response needs tidying up when i am not falling asleep in the chair.).
Dude, we should start a band. Haha
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For the technical side, how to approach the instrument (use of basses, fingering etc) there is nothing for the C#D box except Stiamh's videos. Even if they are a bit to advanced Steve talks a lot about different approaches to developing your own fingering solutions.
There are no books for the C#D system (that I know of). IMHO the best tutor book for the B/C is Damien Connolly's (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Accordion-Tutor-Vol-Intermediate/dp/1720599580) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Accordion-Tutor-Vol-Intermediate/dp/1720599580)). Indirectly (obviously the fingering patterns are different) I have learned a lot from this. The videos are very clear, there a lots of tips in the booklet etc.
There is however Gilles Poutoux's book (in French, but a translation in English is available) on playing Irish music on the melodeon. It's more opinionated or philosophical, but he has some great things to say about playing.
For the learning ITM side of things, here are some sources I use for learning tunes by ear are:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jJahEPFofYItznRtMNCaQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jJahEPFofYItznRtMNCaQ) Fluteplayer Shannon Heaton's channel. She also has a lot of general tips about playing Irish music and learning. With some tunes she plays them phrase by phrase.
https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Fiddle-Book-Traditional-Fiddle-Playing/dp/1900428679 (https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Fiddle-Book-Traditional-Fiddle-Playing/dp/1900428679) Fiddleplayer Matt Cranitch's Fiddle book. Comes with a cd.
The Mad for Trad series are also good, especially Cathal Hayden's one for fiddle. He plays the tunes slowly, but not dull in any way.
And there is the Online Academy of Irish Music! So there is an abudancy of excellent material, but not that much on the technical issues of the C#D box.
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As a flute player I would also recommend Shannon Heaton's channel for learning tunes. OAIM is a useful with some free basic starter lessons available for various instruments - https://www.oaim.ie/
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For the technical side, how to approach the instrument (use of basses, fingering etc) there is nothing for the C#D box except Stiamh's videos. Even if they are a bit to advanced Steve talks a lot about different approaches to developing your own fingering solutions.
There are no books for the C#D system (that I know of). IMHO the best tutor book for the B/C is Damien Connolly's (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Accordion-Tutor-Vol-Intermediate/dp/1720599580) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Accordion-Tutor-Vol-Intermediate/dp/1720599580)). Indirectly (obviously the fingering patterns are different) I have learned a lot from this. The videos are very clear, there a lots of tips in the booklet etc.
There is however Gilles Poutoux's book (in French, but a translation in English is available) on playing Irish music on the melodeon. It's more opinionated or philosophical, but he has some great things to say about playing.
For the learning ITM side of things, here are some sources I use for learning tunes by ear are:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jJahEPFofYItznRtMNCaQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jJahEPFofYItznRtMNCaQ) Fluteplayer Shannon Heaton's channel. She also has a lot of general tips about playing Irish music and learning. With some tunes she plays them phrase by phrase.
https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Fiddle-Book-Traditional-Fiddle-Playing/dp/1900428679 (https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Fiddle-Book-Traditional-Fiddle-Playing/dp/1900428679) Fiddleplayer Matt Cranitch's Fiddle book. Comes with a cd.
The Mad for Trad series are also good, especially Cathal Hayden's one for fiddle. He plays the tunes slowly, but not dull in any way.
And there is the Online Academy of Irish Music! So there is an abudancy of excellent material, but not that much on the technical issues of the C#D box.
Some great resources. Thanks so much. My friend has Damien's book and lent it to me for a while. Really well done. It's a shame that there isn't anything in print for C#D. I guess it just isn't that popular and well...it's not BC. ::)
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Pat, try to enter your answers below the quote brackets. That'll make it easier for us all to follow your thoughts.
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Pat, try to enter your answers below the quote brackets. That'll make it easier for us all to follow your thoughts.
Apologies and I appreciate you pointing this out. Technology hates me.
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Going it alone.
Decisions:
1. Are you going to use the little finger?....Common sense says surely it means easier/better playing with four fingers. Why would you 'handicap' yourself by doing away with one?
2. Will you use a different finger for each and every note (even if the next note is on the same button and/or is the same note)?...Common sense says surely it means better/easier playing using the same finger if it is there on the button already.
(..I'll just try and press the lid down on those particular cans of worms)
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Going it alone.
Decisions:
1. Are you going to use the little finger?....Common sense says surely it means easier/better playing with four fingers. Why would you 'handicap' yourself by doing away with one?
2. Will you use a different finger for each and every note (even if the next note is on the same button and/or is the same note)?...Common sense says surely it means better/easier playing using the same finger if it is there on the button already.
(..I'll just try and press the lid down on those particular cans of worms)
Two good questions that I have seen come up in different debates on this site. Since I'm a bit limited by the lack of C#D instructors; I have been following several of Stiahm's videos. I know that the playing fundamentals are probably the same between all systems but he is currently my best influence. That being said, I've been practicing pinky-less. Things may change as I develop my own style but for now that's where I'm at. I'm also trying to finger switch (there's probably a correct term) as much as I can mostly because it makes sense to my brain to do so. Maybe it's because I've never played piano? Who can say at this early stage.
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It's difficult to know what direction when you are doing your own thing and as I far as I can tell there is no defined right/best way.
But from your above post I would suggest that you are on a good road.
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I'm also trying to finger switch (there's probably a correct term) as much as I can mostly because it makes sense to my brain to do so
I tried finger switching, sliding, cross fingering and eventually came up with what works for me ie. a bit of everything which allows me to have my fingers in the right position for the next notes.
A few years ago I read (on his site) that Damien Connolly was planning on producing a C#D version of his book but I've no idea what's happened to it, might be worth contacting him.
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A few years ago I read (on his site) that Damien Connolly was planning on producing a C#D version of his book but I've no idea what's happened to it, might be worth contacting him.
He told me a while back he'd given up the idea of doing a C#/D book - I think he was quailing before the prospect of having to do the same amount of work as the B&C one had involved. He was then thinking of doing video-only C#/D tutorials but that project must be on the back burner, because this was several years ago.
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I've read a lot here about people warning against getting stuck in a rut of only playing down the rows and not across. Others suggest playing a single row then adapting to cross row playing. Lots of opinion on the subject it seems. I'm not even considering basses. Hah
Ignore the stuff about whether to play up and down the rows or to do 'cross-rowing'. That is pretty much an English DG notion; you don't actually have any choice. An Irish tune even if nominally in D is quite likely to have a note or two that you can only find on the C# row, and the sooner you get used to that the better. (The College Groves, for example, which has a C natural that you can only get on the C# row). And the keys of G, or A, of course, will always have some notes you won't find on the D row row. And there are many tunes in other keys. To talk about 'up and down the row' is like saying you'll only play the white notes on the piano. I'd start by playing tunes in D and G and A, and get used to using both rows. It may help to think of it like a piano but with the black notes on the outside, Also play around on the keyboard to find where a note on one row is duplicated on the other. Look at the keyboard layout charts on this forum, but also get physically used to knowing where they are, because they may give you an easier option in a tricky passage. And my advice would be not to overthink about which fingers to use; do what comes naturally; other people's advice is based on their fingers and nervous system, not yours. The sooner you can play while thinking about the tune and not about where you fingers are the better.
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Ignore the stuff about whether to play up and down the rows or to do 'cross-rowing'. That is pretty much an English DG notion; you don't actually have any choice. An Irish tune even if nominally in D is quite likely to have a note or two that you can only find on the C# row, and the sooner you get used to that the better. (The College Groves, for example, which has a C natural that you can only get on the C# row). And the keys of G, or A, of course, will always have some notes you won't find on the D row row. And there are many tunes in other keys. To talk about 'up and down the row' is like saying you'll only play the white notes on the piano. I'd start by playing tunes in D and G and A, and get used to using both rows. It may help to think of it like a piano but with the black notes on the outside, Also play around on the keyboard to find where a note on one row is duplicated on the other. Look at the keyboard layout charts on this forum, but also get physically used to knowing where they are, because they may give you an easier option in a tricky passage. And my advice would be not to overthink about which fingers to use; do what comes naturally; other people's advice is based on their fingers and nervous system, not yours. The sooner you can play while thinking about the tune and not about where you fingers are the better.
Overthink? Me? It's like you've known me my whole life. Some great advice here. I really am at the "baby steps" phase of the journey but tips like this will hopefully stay with me to help burn the good habits into my head. One of the big things i've been working on is not looking down when I play. Not only does it look silly and hurt my neck but it also helps me to feel where the notes are instead of looking for them. Also, learning tunes that I already know on the whistle will probably help as well. I need to resist the urge to get ahead of myself. It's like driving with your brakes on.
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before learning 'tunes' in DG & A I would suggest those 3 scales are learned and practised so the fingers know the 'route' without the need for conscious thought ( more or less!). i.e. learn scale of G and then have a go at G tunes, then same for D then A rather than learning the 3 scales before having a go at tunes.
Then have a go at simple tunes played very slowly so you have time to sort out the fingereing that best suits the chosen tune(s) bearing in mind that a different tune (in the same key) may work better with different fingering and also that different parts of a tune may best suite the use of 2, 3 or 4 fingers and that there are no hard and fast rules to adhere to other than making absolutely sure you ALWAYS have a spare finger available for the next note , be it higher, lower or at t'other end of the keyboardor on t'other row
george
george
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The sooner you can play while thinking about the tune and not about where you fingers are the better.
My experience is that I can only start thinking about the tune *after* I have found a workable solution for the fingering...
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But how do you find a workable solution to the fingering without thinking about the tune??
george
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IMO the tune (whatever instrument you best remember it being played on) should be firmly embedded in your brain before you even pick the box up.
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The sooner you can play while thinking about the tune and not about where you fingers are the better.
My experience is that I can only start thinking about the tune *after* I have found a workable solution for the fingering...
I guess I mean the feeling that the tune goes straight from your thoughts and back in through your ears without your being conscious of your fingers at all. Probably the zen of box playing!
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IMO the tune (whatever instrument you best remember it being played on) should be firmly embedded in your brain before you even pick the box up.
indeed - it should be humable or whistleable
george
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My experience is that I can only start thinking about the tune *after* I have found a workable solution for the fingering...
I guess I mean the feeling that the tune goes straight from your thoughts and back in through your ears without your being conscious of your fingers at all. Probably the zen of box playing!
I think I use a combination of approaches definitely including the zen one you allude to Richard. But in between bouts of zen sartori or whatever it is, I think paying attention to fingering is extremely worthwhile. What you learn in doing so goes to feed the zen current, certainly.
George said something on here, probably at least a decade ago, that I found very useful, too, as another approach - something like "develop the brain-button connection rather than the finger-button connection" - which I took to mean that if you knew which note or button you wanted to play, the brain would make automatic choices for you which spared you the agony of thinking about fingering while you are engaged in playing (as opposed to practising) a tune. Bit of a lightbulb moment for me, thank you George :|glug which I threw into the mix along with fingering analysis and playing by zen/sink or swim. Whatever helps, whatever gets you closer to your goal...
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before learning 'tunes' in DG & A I would suggest those 3 scales are learned and practised so the fingers know the 'route' without the need for conscious thought ( more or less!). i.e. learn scale of G and then have a go at G tunes, then same for D then A rather than learning the 3 scales before having a go at tunes.
george
George, I know that typed comments can often seem to have a hint of criticism, so please understand that I am asking this in genuine bafflement of how to practise scales, because I'd like to but can't see my way through this issue:
There is a vast amount of options for fingering even a single octave scale, all of which depend on chord choice. Unless I'm mistaken, there is only one note that I don't have a choice about in any one scale: in G major on a DG box (I know you know this already) I can't play the C on the outside row. Everything else is flexible, so what do I practise? Once we get onto different keys, the issue gets broadened, because I only have one G chord choice, but 2 D chord options.
GAB over a G chord is a different fingering to GAB over an E minor chord. (Again I know you already know this).
Has anyone got these scale patterns? I tried writing some but gave up at the huge choice of options.
So how do you practise (which means a repetitive action) something that keeps changing?
If anyone could come up with a set of precise exercises which embed the scale knowledge I'd willingly practise them.
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...There is a vast amount of options for fingering even a single octave scale, all of which depend on chord choice. Unless I'm mistaken, there is only one note that I don't have a choice about in any one scale: in G major on a DG box (I know you know this already) I can't play the C on the outside row. Everything else is flexible, so what do I practise? Once we get onto different keys, the issue gets broadened, because I only have one G chord choice, but 2 D chord options.
GAB over a G chord is a different fingering to GAB over an E minor chord. (Again I know you already know this).
Has anyone got these scale patterns? I tried writing some but gave up at the huge choice of options.
So how do you practise (which means a repetitive action) something that keeps changing?
A couple things occur to me reading this:
Yes - it's useful to practice scales to develop fluency of fingerings, and you know your way around the box well enough now to be able to identify those places where options are several and those places where options are limited, e.g. as you have mentioned, the C natural is only available on the G-row pull. Another obvious one is that C# is only avalable on the D-row pull.
For complete scales, try to become fluent using both cross-row patterns and also just push-and-pull, up-and-down the rows. Also, especially when doing the latter, practise using the full range of the keyboard - we all know how the fingering patterns change from the lower to the upper octave.
However, possibly more directly useful than complete scales is to practise fragments of scales, because these will crop up over and over again in different tunes with different rhythmic and harmonic setings. The GAB scale fragment against G major and E minor chords which you mentioned is a good example:
With a G major chord you can (i) play GAB smoothly on the cross row push or (ii) by bellows waggling entirely on the G-row. For (ii) you can't have the G-major chord sounding on the middle note pull A. So you have to break the rhythm of the LH bass/chord. This immediately gives a different rhythmic feel, and lends itself for example to a 6/8 rum-ty tum-ty bass-gap-chord bass-gap-chord rhythm of a jig.
Similarly with the E minor chord. Smooth cross-row of the GAB on the pull allows you to have the chord and/or bass going continuously like a drone, or by waggling up-and-down on the D-row allows you to play the rhythmic jig rhythm as above.
Practising the same GAB fragments in the higher octaves too gives you additional versatility.
You can apply the same reasoning to other scale fragments. Another commonly encountered example would be ABC against an Am7 chord or a D chord. Other useful fragments might be up-down GAG, or down-up GF#G, again possible by both cross-row or waggling, but which give different rhythmic effects and chordal possibilities. Experiment, say in the key of G major, finding all sorts of three- or four-note fragments and working out which bellows/fingering styles give you which effects.
So - to summarise, because there are so many possibilitles of complete scale fingerings and row choices, it's perhaps more useful to become fluent with scale fragments so you can begin to mix and match them at will, giving you different rhythmic and chordal options and styles.
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Did you decide to go DG or semitone, Pat? I can't see a post where you said what you'd decided to do, though I may have missed it. It's probably worth committing yourself to one system for now, because the approach is different for each and so are the details of the skills involved.
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or as the extremely talented tony hall put it . Keep a note going with one finger and then try pressing other buttons until it makes a sound you like - then practice and remember that combination of notes - or words to that effect
george
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Did you decide to go DG or semitone, Pat? I can't see a post where you said what you'd decided to do, though I may have missed it. It's probably worth committing yourself to one system for now, because the approach is different for each and so are the details of the skills involved.
I did not switch to DG. I stepped away for a day or two and the thread went a little sideways. In a good way mind you. I'm trying my best to follow what the heavy hitters on the forum are talking about but it's a little advanced for me. As long as people are learning from the info provided then it seems like a good thread.
I'm committed to playing C#D but have been messing about with my GC box since it's in nicer tune than my C#D and I'm just playing on single rows at this point.
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I'm committed to playing C#D but have been messing about with my GC box since it's in nicer tune than my C#D and I'm just playing on single rows at this point.
I suspected so. You can always be like George and play both systems, but I am convinced the way forward is to commit yourself at this stage in your playing. Stiamh seems to have been giving you giving the best advice.
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I suspected so. You can always be like George and play both systems, but I am convinced the way forward is to commit yourself at this stage in your playing. Stiamh seems to have been giving you giving the best advice.
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Yes, he is the Yoda to my Skywalker thus far. ::)
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I suspected so. You can always be like George and play both systems, but I am convinced the way forward is to commit yourself at this stage in your playing. Stiamh seems to have been giving you giving the best advice.
Yes, he is the Yoda to my Skywalker thus far. ::)
Re-reading your original post, I am impressed by your Early Onset MAD, by the way. One thing I would suggest is that you get your C#/D box fettled so that your instrument can become a friend you can you can work with, rather than fight. It will make a big difference to your enjoyment level and will speed up your learning.
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I'm committed to playing C#D but have been messing about with my GC box since it's in nicer tune than my C#D and I'm just playing on single rows at this point.
If playing on single rows the treble end works just the same on both semitone and 4th aprt boxes eg C#D, DG etc as eg a D row is a D row etc etc. The difference is that the semitone box is in theory able to play all 12 keys but that would require great skill - but several keys other than the on the row keys are fairly easy to play.
The 4th aprt boxes tend to be played mostly in the home (on the row) keys with some people playing mostly 'on the row' and others 'row crossing to achieve better bass harmony. Whether or not to 'row cross' is a choice that depends largely on the type of music being played.
The differences between the two systems is not that great as both need mastery of the common 2 notes per button which is shared by all so called 'diatonic' boxes. However as others have said it makes sense to fully get the hang of one or t'other first rather than trying to learn both at the same time. In a sense playing on the row on a semitone box is not utilising its capabilities but is obviously ok if ,eg you want to just play in C# or D or B & C or whatever.
george
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Re-reading your original post, I am impressed by your Early Onset MAD, by the way. One thing I would suggest is that you get your C#/D box fettled so that your instrument can become a friend you can you can work with, rather than fight. It will make a big difference to your enjoyment level and will speed up your learning.
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My fettling journey is what started it all and I'm really enjoying the tuning process but I have a lot to learn as well on that front. I have this stupid notion that I have to tune this instrument to a playable standard before I start my playing process. It's really close for my liking. I'm pretty sure that once I really start playing that I'll start tuning all over again.