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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Dick Rees on April 30, 2019, 01:11:02 AM

Title: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on April 30, 2019, 01:11:02 AM
Other than volume/dynamics, how does air pressure figure into your playing?  Does a box have a "sweet spot" for how hard you skweez to make it sing?  What factors in playing are affected even in part by bellows pressure?

Thanks for your thoughts
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Jesse Smith on April 30, 2019, 02:48:02 AM
Well, this is just such an enormous topic. I think the bellows are what makes a squeezebox different from just about any other instrument, because on what other instrument can you play a sustained chord and swell it up in volume? Brass and woodwinds can do individual notes but you need multiple players to do it with a chord. Strings are sort of the same way, but I don't consider the crescendo on a stringed instrument to sound the same as on a wind instrument. Maybe an electric organ or guitar with a volume pedal is the closest thing!

One thing I've recently been trying to explore is articulating the oom-pah with the bellows more than with the buttons. This can be very subtle. We hear it a lot with waltz time where the beat is transmitted through a pulsing of the bellows, but I also really like the sound of it in, for example, a jig, where the up beat surges or swells into the down beat with just the use of the bellows. So you get a rrrrrr-rup rrrrrr-rup effect (where the "up" is the down beat). I learned this from listening to John Kirkpatrick (though I'm sure others have done it as well). In his tutor video he says it sounds as though you're playing backwards, and it really does have that sort of backwards guitar sound. But it took me a long time to figure out exactly how this sound is made, and how it relies on sort of crossing the bar line with the note and swelling up with the bellows.

There's so much more one could say about bellows use but that's what jumps to my mind at the moment.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Jesse Smith on April 30, 2019, 02:51:31 AM
Oh, and with regards to a "sweet spot" for bellows pressure, I think it exists to an extent although it is different for each box. My 4 stop plays louder with less pressure since there are twice the number of reeds playing. But I think it is less to do with absolute pressure and more with the attack on the notes. There's a certain quality of sound especially with right hand chords that comes with just the right sharpness of attack with the bellows. It reminds me of what tin whistle players call "chiff". A certain percussiveness of the reed sound. Hard to describe really but I hope people know what I mean.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on April 30, 2019, 03:13:16 AM
Oh, and with regards to a "sweet spot" for bellows pressure, I think it exists to an extent although it is different for each box. My 4 stop plays louder with less pressure since there are twice the number of reeds playing. But I think it is less to do with absolute pressure and more with the attack on the notes. There's a certain quality of sound especially with right hand chords that comes with just the right sharpness of attack with the bellows. It reminds me of what tin whistle players call "chiff". A certain percuasiveness of the reed sound. Hard to describe really but I hope people know what I mean.

I know what you mean.  The transient response of the reeds is definitely pressure dependent as well as varying subtly between attack from pressing a button compared to attack by bellows direction change.

I think the basic thing behind my question deals with the necessity of maintaining pressure sufficient for the bellows to pick up and amplify the rhythmic pulse of the tune.  This might be perhaps one of the major differences coming with experience, but is it ever directly addressed in workshops?  I've learned on my own and have not attended any classes or even sessions of box players.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 09:51:04 AM
to me the bellowsare the very heart of the box and in some ways can be likened to what the bow is to the fiddler.  Fine control of the bellows takes time to aquire   is more important than just thinking in terms of 'pressure'.  When teaching I spend a lot of time  helping students to develop fine bellows control and the benefits that go with it  and getting away from the notion that the bellwos  are 'a bloody great air pump'.  A learning technique I particularly advocate is playing slow aires hauntingly and with great feeling using treble only  to emphasise the  wonderful dynamic scope of the box

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Alan Pittwood on April 30, 2019, 10:35:10 AM
to me the bellows are the very heart of the box and in some ways can be likened to what the bow is to the fiddler. 

For students, it is important to emphasise that they hold the treble side completely still and that all the movement of the bellows should be controlled by the left hand.   Bellows and air button control are vital techniques in the early development stage.

And that there should be no weight taken on the right hand that is then free to move quickly and accurately over the keyboard.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 12:54:01 PM
to me the bellows are the very heart of the box and in some ways can be likened to what the bow is to the fiddler. 

For students, it is important to emphasise that they hold the treble side completely still and that all the movement of the bellows should be controlled by the left hand.   Bellows and air button control are vital techniques in the early development stage.

And that there should be no weight taken on the right hand that is then free to move quickly and accurately over the keyboard.

I agree and it is for that reason that I prefer and indeed advocate the use of two carefully adjusted shoulder straps

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Helena Handcart on April 30, 2019, 01:09:57 PM

I agree and it is for that reason that I prefer and indeed advocate the use of two carefully adjusted shoulder straps



Oh no... not the old 'one or two straps' debate. Quick everybody run.... ;D >:E
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 01:24:06 PM
indeed

G ::) >:E
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on April 30, 2019, 04:00:52 PM
The problem with two straps is that your wings are clipped.  If you're standing and moving around...maybe, but having your arms all tucked in stifles things IMO.

Referring to the "bellows as bow" analogy, as both a box and fiddle player, with neither do I want my arm position limited by a centered and fixed instrument position.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 05:22:57 PM
at risk of incurring Helena's wrath  exactly the opposite occurs because the box, being firmly attached to ones body leaves both arms totally free to forever wave is that is what is desired. Me I prefer to play with bellows as tight as possible  and to traverse the keyboard with finger and hand movement  rather than arm movement.

BUt as has been said before there are no rules and aeach to his/her own.

george -ducking for cover!
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Julian S on April 30, 2019, 05:34:27 PM
There are of course more than a few rather good players who seem to manage quite well with one strap...

J
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 06:49:53 PM
indeed!
g
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Helena Handcart on April 30, 2019, 06:50:52 PM
The problem with two straps is that your wings are clipped. 

I find the opposite. With two straps I'm free to move about as much as I like whether standing or sitting - those who have seen me playing for morris will probably know that I move about a lot when playing for dance.

Oh well YMMV and all that.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2019, 06:54:26 PM
 ;D
g
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Alan Pittwood on April 30, 2019, 07:02:10 PM
There are of course more than a few rather good players who seem to manage quite well with one strap...

And that, for beginners, is important, across the whole range of traditional music.   In some cases we are able to see a musician changing over the course of a musical life as new instruments are adopted.

For some, their choice of instrument - size and weight -  and the occasions in which they play will largely determine whether they will stand or sit and use one or two straps.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Theo on April 30, 2019, 07:11:37 PM
[[ADMIN]]

Off topic post removed.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Stiamh on April 30, 2019, 07:14:35 PM
I'd just point out that top one-row players - in my neck of the woods at least - certainly use the right hand actively in conjunction with the left to control the bellows, modulate the attack, etc. Those who use no straps and balance the box on their knee, anyway. Bit like playing the fiddle with two bows, really...  ;)
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: mselic on April 30, 2019, 07:54:17 PM
I'd just point out that top one-row players - in my neck of the woods at least - certainly use the right hand actively in conjunction with the left to control the bellows, modulate the attack, etc. Those who use no straps and balance the box on their knee, anyway. Bit like playing the fiddle with two bows, really...  ;)

This is how I play.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Peadar on April 30, 2019, 10:26:48 PM
You can't actively move the melody end without a thumb strap.

Sweet spot....definitely there with the old three stop and it's steel bronze (brass?) reeds.

Did try putting it across my knee and working both ends. At that point the screw holding the thumb strap pulled out....
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Jesse Smith on April 30, 2019, 11:03:12 PM
I think the basic thing behind my question deals with the necessity of maintaining pressure sufficient for the bellows to pick up and amplify the rhythmic pulse of the tune.  This might be perhaps one of the major differences coming with experience, but is it ever directly addressed in workshops?  I've learned on my own and have not attended any classes or even sessions of box players.

I would assume many workshops cover bellows dynamics (I've not attended any either) but I haven't found much coverage of it in the beginner tutor books I've seen. In fact, when I first started playing last year, I very briefly had the idea that it was ideal to maintain constant pressure on the bellows and just use the buttons to start and stop the notes. That didn't last long as I quickly realized the great scope for shaping each note using the bellows, but it was something I largely had to learn on my own.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on April 30, 2019, 11:21:33 PM
I think the basic thing behind my question deals with the necessity of maintaining pressure sufficient for the bellows to pick up and amplify the rhythmic pulse of the tune.  This might be perhaps one of the major differences coming with experience, but is it ever directly addressed in workshops?  I've learned on my own and have not attended any classes or even sessions of box players.

I would assume many workshops cover bellows dynamics (I've not attended any either) but I haven't found much coverage of it in the beginner tutor books I've seen. In fact, when I first started playing last year, I very briefly had the idea that it was ideal to maintain constant pressure on the bellows and just use the buttons to start and stop the notes. That didn't last long as I quickly realized the great scope for shaping each note using the bellows, but it was something I largely had to learn on my own.

My focus in posting is more towards reed response, tone production and "live air" than just dynamics.
For me, there's a point where the bellows "push back" and both expression and control are at maximum efficiency.  I suspect that subtle and/or subconscious venting with the air button plays into this as does RH touch:  valve opening speed and degree of open-ness.  I favor an "unlimited" keyboard for this reason.

But that's just me and my hazy subjective attempt to describe the point at which I feel the box come alive.  It's not an issue of mere volume.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: playandteach on May 01, 2019, 08:53:01 PM
One thing I have seen (perhaps with less experienced players) is only applying bellows pressure for the moment of the button press, which I find less enchanting. As an ex wind player, I think the air stream needs to be primed to a greater or lesser extent.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Squeaky Pete on May 01, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
I've been thinking about what I actually do when I'm playing, rather than just get on with it, and I realise that I often play a note before the beat and give a little tweak to the bellows as I hit the bass.
I think I usually do an intro like this too. Even a swell chord and in can have a rhythm to the chord with enough unstated timing to get everyone to come in together and at the right tempo.
It's quite novel too after learning NSP where constant bag pressure is paramount.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on May 01, 2019, 11:06:45 PM
I th

I would assume many workshops cover bellows dynamics (I've not attended any either) but I haven't found much coverage of it in the beginner tutor books I've seen. In fact, w .

My beginners tutor book  '' DG Melodeon a crash course for beginners'' has 2 pages covering   use of bellows to provide dynamics.  see below!

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on May 02, 2019, 12:02:18 AM
I th

I would assume many workshops cover bellows dynamics (I've not attended any either) but I haven't found much coverage of it in the beginner tutor books I've seen. In fact, w .

My beginners tutor book  '' DG Melodeon a crash course for beginners'' has 2 pages covering   use of bellows to provide dynamics.  see below!

george

Once again, my intent was to examine air pressure in the bellows beyond simple dynamics.  For instance, the relationship between pressure and RH touch on the buttons. 

I liked the mention of wind instrument air stream and NSP bag pressure.  Perhaps my question lies somewhere between...
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on May 04, 2019, 09:46:01 AM
developing the relationship between bellows pressure and button touch is something that is ( or should be) developed by experimentation and listening as it is part of the 'feel' of a box  and will differ to a greater or lesser degree according to the way  the reeds are set up, the quality of reeds, the quality  and smoothness or otherwise of the mechanism, the quality of the pallets etc etc together with the players finger dexterity  and ability to 'play' the bellows rather than just pumping them.

for example it should be possible to highlight an individual note in a fast tune  by a subtle increase in bellows pressure  or to gradually icrease or decrease the volume of notes in eg a slow air.  Also to pulse a very gentle background layer of rhythm  using carefully controlled minute changes in bellows pressure.

The buttons simply lift the pallets of holes to allow air to go to or come from the reeds.  varying the amount a button is pressed makes little difference as they are more like on off switches so eg releasing /lifting finger off button gently will make little or no difference to the sound  that being done by sometimes minute varyations in bellows pressure.

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Dick Rees on May 04, 2019, 01:29:58 PM
developing the relationship between bellows pressure and button touch is something that is ( or should be) developed by experimentation and listening as it is part of the 'feel' of a box  and will differ to a greater or lesser degree according to the way  the reeds are set up, the quality of reeds, the quality  and smoothness or otherwise of the mechanism, the quality of the pallets etc etc together with the players finger dexterity  and ability to 'play' the bellows rather than just pumping them.

That's a good way to put it and gets to the gist of what I was feeling.


Quote
The buttons simply lift the pallets of holes to allow air to go to or come from the reeds.  varying the amount a button is pressed makes little difference as they are more like on off switches so eg releasing /lifting finger off button gently will make little or no difference to the sound  that being done by sometimes minute varyations in bellows pressure.

george

While valve control may make "little" difference, it does make some and in the full context of playing can make a qualitative difference as opposed to a quantitative one...so it seems to me.  And it would also seem to be dependent to a greater or lesser degree on the style of the music, for instance:
fingering attack for a polka or reel would seem to differ from that of a slow air or waltz melody.  Then there's the issue of the amount of percussive "clack" from the keyboard mechanism as well as any "clap" from the pallet closing.

As to the speed of attack/release I DO think that is absolutely involved in emphasis.  The "snap" you get from articulating the note when you are on the same button but changing bellows direction to get the next note is markedly different from playing across the rows while playing the bellows in the same direction.  But it is the release, the speed and timing of the closing of the pallet which can really make a note stand out.  Note duration is intimately linked to phrasing and the stopping of the note can sometimes make it stand out like a sore thumb with no change in bellows pressure.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on May 04, 2019, 10:40:29 PM
 eg the difference between playing a piano and playing a box is that on a piano its how you press the keys that's important anad on a box its how you let go  of buttons or keys that  important

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: Mark Leue on May 04, 2019, 11:38:29 PM
I've spent a few days borrowing a friend's anglo concertina (R. Morse)  an d it's interesting how different the bellows response is from my 1930's Hohner pokerwork.  I don't know how much is the bellows size and condition, or the tightness of the pallets, and how much the reeds, but with the concertina I can imitate fairly closely the sound of George Harrison's backwards recorded guitar solo on "I'm only sleeping" buy starting the note softly, making a quick swell with the bellows and snapping the pallet shut, it sounds backwards!
I can get a little of that effect on the melodeon, but it's not pronounced at all.
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on May 05, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
it may be down simply to the fact that smaller bellows  contain less air  which is therefore easier to  compress suddenly .  Also that concertinas are single reed  so the swiftly compressed ( or decompressed) air has only one hole to get out of so to speak.  This also applies to some degree to  small single voice melodeons eg castagnari lilly

george
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: RF Music on May 29, 2019, 10:29:46 AM
I think bellows use is so much more than just how hard or softly you push / pull. I try use the bellows in a sort-of pulsing way to give my playing a more rhythmic feel. I don't really like vamping basses (I don't mind it when anyone else does it, it just sounds really silly to me why I try to do it!). If you're not vamping you can use bass pulsing to emphasise the rhythm in a tune...
Title: Re: Bellows pressure
Post by: george garside on May 29, 2019, 11:42:16 AM
I think' of the bellows being to the box player what the bow is to the fiddler  in that they are the source of a great deal of 'expression'.  and  as well as controlling the dynamics  the 'pulsing' ( not shaking) of the bellows provides a very useful extra layer of rhythm to many tunes or parts of tunes.  The pulsing can be particularly useful to add background rhythm to haunting slow aires  if they are being played either without bass or using the bass as a 'drone'


george
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