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Discussions => Tunes => ABC => Topic started by: ChrisP on May 21, 2019, 12:35:14 PM

Title: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 21, 2019, 12:35:14 PM
Who's up for volunteering to do some ABC transcriptions?
Through the generosity of a friend, Peter Law, who recently managed to obtain this large manuscript, the Village Music Project has been given copies of it, along with permission to ABC it.
From what I know of it so far it seems to date from after the middle of the 19thC. Unlike some of Buttrey it is very neatly and clearly laid out, and legible.
It has been batched up as PDFs to about 35 tunes per batch. I could snip smaller lumps off if you don't want to start with that many.
Let me know either by PM or email please, as I may not read this thread often.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 21, 2019, 12:38:26 PM
PM sent, I'm in!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Mike Hirst on May 21, 2019, 03:24:47 PM
I'd be happy to do a batch or two.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 21, 2019, 03:28:30 PM
I'm happy to do a batch.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 22, 2019, 08:30:20 AM
Yep, me too!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 22, 2019, 06:36:19 PM
When you get your batches, check through first for out-of-focus pages that you can't deal with, and I'll ask for clearer pics.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 22, 2019, 11:44:14 PM
One question. What is the VMP identifier for the ms? Sorry if this is obvious when you look in the right place, but I haven't found it.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 23, 2019, 02:25:26 PM
Quick question which may have been answered on early strands
Sym.
So.
Written under the stave.  Am I right in thinking that normally Sym. = together (or chorus). and So. = solo
For context I think I have an ornamented song tune but cannot track it down, "Every Inch a Sailor"
A nearby tune is clearly based on a 1730 Henry Fielding ballad "Roast Beef of Old England" So this may have a similar source.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 23, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that Steve gave a definitive answer to this in discussions wrt the Buttrey ms. I believe it is short for "symphony" and, in earlier times meant played together, or in harmony. This meaning seems to have persisted, to an extent, after it was adopted as a noun to describe a particular musical  structure: The symphony.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 23, 2019, 03:07:35 PM
Quick question which may have been answered on early strands
Sym.
So.
Written under the stave.  Am I right in thinking that normally Sym. = together (or chorus). and So. = solo
For context I think I have an ornamented song tune but cannot track it down, "Every Inch a Sailor"
A nearby tune is clearly based on a 1730 Henry Fielding ballad "Roast Beef of Old England" So this may have a similar source.

I'm pretty sure that Steve gave a definitive answer to this in discussions wrt the Buttrey ms. I believe it is short for "symphony" and, in earlier times meant played together, or in harmony. This meaning seems to have persisted, to an extent, after it was adopted as a noun to describe a particular musical  structure: The symphony.

Yes indeed. It's here (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,23888.msg284499.html#msg284499).
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 23, 2019, 05:31:11 PM
One question. What is the VMP identifier for the ms? Sorry if this is obvious when you look in the right place, but I haven't found it.

Er.. Hadn't thought about it yet, but Roose is short and to the point. Could always change it later by find&replace, but the the most we would save would be three characters.
Incidentally, remember there are 1120 tunes, so #1 needs to be Roose.0001 and so on.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 23, 2019, 05:34:02 PM
Thanks Steve, I thought you had but couldn't locate it.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 23, 2019, 07:57:08 PM
There are some tunes in my batch which I cannot find anywhere on t'internet, which is pretty
cool. My absolute favourite so far is this one - it just made me (:) big-time:

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Fresh Fish on Friday. Roose.0192
B:Roose MS, poss. Manchester, mid-late 19th century.
Z:Village Music Project 2019 Roger Hare
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/4=120
%R:Hornpipe ?
K:A
%What a crackin' little tune!!
%That triplet in bar 4 might sound 'better' as 'f/g/a'?
|: Aaag feac | Aaac BBdB | Aaag feac | (3fga ec B2 A2 :|
|: ceAe ceAe | dfce BcdB | ceAe ceAe | dfec B2 A2 :|

Do we know anything more about the Roose family? I'll be in the Music Library in Manchester tomorrow,
and am feeling inclined to have a good go at their catalogue to see if I can come up with anything...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 23, 2019, 09:28:17 PM
MS John Roose,
4 Welcombe Street, Hulme, Manchester

Approximately 1120 tunes, very neat, quadrilles, minuets, polkas, hornpipes etc.

I can find no positive records on Ancestry of the family before the 1871 census.
There are several John Roose's in Derbyshire, beware of false trails.
The following census records were found by working backwards from the address in Hulme given in the manuscript, and birthplaces.
Codnor Park, next to Riddings village, is 2 miles east of Ripley, Derbs, 10 miles NNE of Derby
1871 Census 10 Arnside Village, Westmorland
Lodgers:-
John Roose[1], widower   39yrs   Rly. Labr. (Railway Labourer)   b. Ashover,Derbs
John[2]     u/m.      22yrs   Rly. Labr.   b. Codnor Park, Derbs.   
Thomas u/m      20yrs   Rly. Labr.   b. Winchester
This seems to be a widowed father John[1], born in Ashover Derbyshire about 1832, and his two grown-up two sons. The eldest, John[2] was born about 1849 not too far away in Codnor Park, which was at the time a very industrial area close to collieries, ironworks, brickworks and recently constructed railways. The second was born in far away Winchester around 1851, which was also the scene of ongoing major railway construction. By 1871 they were lodging in Westmorland as railway labourers, possibly in the construction of the Hincaster Branch of the Furness Railway, though the dates of its construction are a little vague and contradictory. The busiest days of railway civil engineering were past, but soon the Midland Railway would commence work on the nearby Settle- Carlisle line.
Nevertheless John[2] (junior) fancied a change of lifestyle from railway labouring, and by 1881 we find him as a Police Constable in Hulme, less than a mile to the south of Manchester city centre, where he had been since at least the time of the birth of his daughter Florence 13 Jan 1877. By this time he had parted from his father and brother and married, in 1874 in Manchester, Elizabeth Jane Walker (1843-1914) from Macclesfield. There he remained in the police force for at least the next 30 years. His son John[3] was listed as a musician in 1901 and in 1911.
1881 Census 4 Welcomb St. Hulme
John Roose[2]      30yrs   Police Cons.   b.Codnor Park, Derbs.
Elizabeth A?      36yrs         b. Macclesfield, Cheshire
Florence      3yrs         b. Hulme
John[3]      2yrs         b. Hulme
Charles         2months      b.Hulme

1891 Census 4 Welcomb St. Hulme
John Roose[2]      42yrs   Police Cons.(table)   b. Ridd Ings, Derbs.
Elizabeth J      38yrs         b. Macclesfield, Cheshire
Louisa         14yrs         b. Hulme
Florence      13yrs         b. Hulme
John[3]      12yrs         b.Hulme

1901 Census 4 Welcomb St. Hulme
John Roose[2]      52yrs   Police?      b. Codnor Park, Derbs.
Elizabeth J      55yrs
Florence      23yrs   Machinist
John[3]      22yrs   Musician   b.  Manchester

1911 Census 4 Welcomb St. Hulme Manchester
John Roose[2] head    62 yrs married 36 years 5 children born, 3 still living, 2 died Police pensioner, Riddings, Derbyshire
Elizabeth Jane Roose    68 yrs Macclesfield Cheshire
John Roose[3] son    32 yrs, single, musician (worker) Manchester
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 23, 2019, 09:55:21 PM
There are some tunes in my batch which I cannot find anywhere on t'internet, which is pretty
cool. My absolute favourite so far is this one - it just made me (:) big-time:

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Fresh Fish on Friday. Roose.0192
B:Roose MS, poss. Manchester, mid-late 19th century.
Z:Village Music Project 2019 Roger Hare
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/4=120
%R:Hornpipe ?
K:A
%What a crackin' little tune!!
%That triplet in bar 4 might sound 'better' as 'f/g/a'?
|: Aaag feac | Aaac BBdB | Aaag feac | (3fga ec B2 A2 :|
|: ceAe ceAe | dfce BcdB | ceAe ceAe | dfec B2 A2 :|

Do we know anything more about the Roose family? I'll be in the Music Library in Manchester tomorrow,
and am feeling inclined to have a good go at their catalogue to see if I can come up with anything...
Hmm. This illustrates why I stopped speculating on what an R: field should say. The title does not suggest it's a hornpipe, and it looks like a 16 bar reel to me. Best say nowt and let the reader use it as they see fit.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 24, 2019, 06:00:47 AM
MS John Roose,
4 Welcombe Street, Hulme, Manchester
etc...
Wow! Job done, thank you very much! I will use those last two census entries to see if there's anything
in the local history archive which is in the same building.

Hmm. This illustrates why I stopped speculating on what an R: field should say. The title does not suggest it's a hornpipe,
and it looks like a 16 bar reel to me. Best say nowt and let the reader use it as they see fit.
Aye, that's why I put the R:field in as a comment. My trouble is that I don't know my hornpipe  from my
elbow reel... Sounds OK given the hornpipe treatment though - the 'folk-music mangle' in operation...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 10:16:50 AM
Hive mind, what is the third word in this tune title, I'm hopeless with things like this!

Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 24, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
Looks like "Cow" to me....
I've made a page for the MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Roose/RooseInfo.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Roose/RooseInfo.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 11:13:58 AM
I wondered about Cow but the capitalisation bothers me, the writing of the titles is otherwise very neat, precise and correct so why the capital? Here's a slightly better image.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: smiley on May 24, 2019, 01:04:16 PM
Can't help with your 'Cow' problem, although given its context in the tune's title I think it might be a place name.

I'd just like to mention that I've found a couple of tunes in my batch are exact matches with tunes from Samuel, Ann & Peter Thompson – Complete Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances, vol. 5 (London, 1788). Every detail is identical, which leads me to think the writer of the Roose MS copied out some tunes from this publication. I found the matches by searching titles in http://abcnotation.com/search (http://abcnotation.com/search) and could then use the abc notation already created by other kind souls.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 24, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
Can't help with your 'Cow' problem, although given its context in the tune's title I think it might be a place name.

You beat me to it - just!  A mis-spelt place-name I wondered? There is a place in Carmarthenshire called Cieo/Caeo...

Re John Roose[2].  He was a member of Manchester's finest. I couldn't find out any more at the Local History
Archive in Manchester Central Library, but they told me about the Police Museum, so next week I'll toddle along
there and see if they can come up with anything. There is a John Roose listed as a professional musician and living
in Wales in the pre-WWII ''Register' (which apparently replaced the census in the days before WWII). I wonder if
that's 'our' John Roose [3]? He would be in his late-fifties/early-sixties by then.

Hulme has been knocked down and re-built twice (3 times if you include Hitler), so there's no trace of Welcomb Street...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 01:49:55 PM
I now find that there is a hamlet called Cow Ark near Clitheroe, Lancashire, not so very far from Manchester where the manuscript originated so it may be a local tune.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 24, 2019, 02:03:06 PM
Hasn't VMP already transcribed Thompson's? I'm sure I saw you credited, Pete.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 02:11:13 PM
I didn't do Vol. 5, an American chap transcribed it and published a book called Thompson Revisited. The VMP don't transcribe manuscripts that are published even though the source material is public domain.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 24, 2019, 04:19:16 PM
Can't help with your 'Cow' problem, although given its context in the tune's title I think it might be a place name.

I'd just like to mention that I've found a couple of tunes in my batch are exact matches with tunes from Samuel, Ann & Peter Thompson – Complete Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances, vol. 5 (London, 1788). Every detail is identical, which leads me to think the writer of the Roose MS copied out some tunes from this publication. I found the matches by searching titles in http://abcnotation.com/search (http://abcnotation.com/search) and could then use the abc notation already created by other kind souls.
Good find. Others take note.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 05:33:54 PM
Here's a link to the printed copy of Thompson 5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thompson-Revisited-Boyd-Rothenberger/dp/1419663011/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Thompson+Revisited&qid=1558715249&s=gateway&sr=8-1) transcribed and publish bt Boyd Rothenberger in 2007.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 24, 2019, 07:40:02 PM
Here's a link to the printed copy of Thompson 5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thompson-Revisited-Boyd-Rothenberger/dp/1419663011/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Thompson+Revisited&qid=1558715249&s=gateway&sr=8-1) transcribed and publish bt Boyd Rothenberger in 2007.

Is a facsimile of the original available anywhere in the public domain?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 24, 2019, 08:19:23 PM
Not that I can find but ChrisP is the one to ask. There's a copy in the Bodleian Library Oxford.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 24, 2019, 10:15:27 PM
Here's a link to the printed copy of Thompson 5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thompson-Revisited-Boyd-Rothenberger/dp/1419663011/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Thompson+Revisited&qid=1558715249&s=gateway&sr=8-1) transcribed and publish bt Boyd Rothenberger in 2007.

Is a facsimile of the original available anywhere in the public domain?

Not according to my records.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 24, 2019, 10:31:28 PM
However, Andrew Kuntz has transcribed at least some of them  here https://tunearch.org/wiki/Harlequin_Gardener (https://tunearch.org/wiki/Harlequin_Gardener)
and there is a list of the contents here https://www.cdss.org/elibrary/DFIE/Biblio/B000573.htm (https://www.cdss.org/elibrary/DFIE/Biblio/B000573.htm)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 25, 2019, 02:01:00 PM
This is the first tune I've come across with something a bit different about it. The change of mode for the B music is so pronounced I thought it worth annotating it even if there is no practical difference to the notation. I like quirky stuff like this and would tend to repeat the B if simply playing it as a tune

X:0343
T:Frolic. Roose 0343, The
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=110
K:A
e2e e2d|cdB A2E|FGA Bcd|c3B3|
e2e e2d|cdB A2f|edc BAG|A3A3:|
K:E mixolydian % 3 sharps
e^de B2d|c2e B2e|cde fga|g3f3|
bag fed|edc BAG|ABc BGE|F3E3!D.C.!|]
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 25, 2019, 02:18:33 PM
Just checking with ChrisP.

I have a tune in Bb with an accidental F#. Do I; a) ignore the (thoretical) error and transcribe it as written; b) change it to Gb with an NB above the note and an N: field in the header; c) change it to Gb and say nowt?

Edited to remove a second, redundant question. I should have re-read the transcriber notes!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 25, 2019, 05:09:22 PM
This is the first tune I've come across with something a bit different about it. The change of mode for the B music is so pronounced I thought it worth annotating it even if there is no practical difference to the notation. I like quirky stuff like this and would tend to repeat the B if simply playing it as a tune

X:0343
T:Frolic. Roose 0343, The
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=110
K:A
e2e e2d|cdB A2E|FGA Bcd|c3B3|
e2e e2d|cdB A2f|edc BAG|A3A3:|
K:E mixolydian % 3 sharps
e^de B2d|c2e B2e|cde fga|g3f3|
bag fed|edc BAG|ABc BGE|F3E3!D.C.!|]

I think that it's A maj all the way, the E at the end is only passing through, and it wants to settle back to the A. It would also benefit from the d in 13 being sharpened like bar 9.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 25, 2019, 05:25:33 PM
Just checking with ChrisP.

I have a tune in Bb with an accidental F#. Do I; a) ignore the (thoretical) error and transcribe it as written; b) change it to Gb with an NB above the note and an N: field in the header; c) change it to Gb and say nowt?

Edited to remove a second, redundant question. I should have re-read the transcriber notes!

Butchers of Bristol! At last we meet! John Offord keeps mentioning this but I never could find it!
Anyway, key is Gm. It's what is called "Modal Hornpipe" in Ann Gilchrist's transcription of the William Irwin MS, and John calls it Barbara Allen (why?) in the John of the Green, the Cheshire Way book.
Anyway, it all works fine exactly as it is, F# .
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 25, 2019, 05:47:56 PM
Peter, I see you have a tune called "Crabby Frolics" in your batch! From Cromer perhaps :D
We should have a competition for finding the best title.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 25, 2019, 06:45:08 PM
X:0337
T:Crabby Frolics. Roose. 0337
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=110
K:G
dBG ecA|fdB g2f|fed cBA|BAG FED|
dBG ecA|fdB fga|fed Ad^c|d3d3:|
|:dBG ecA|fdB g2f|fed cBA|BAG FED|
dBG ecA|fdB g3|fga fed|Ad^c d3:|
|:B2B BGB|c2c c2d|fed cBA|BAG FED|
B2B BGB|c2c c2d|dcB AGF|G3G3:|

I realised when actually transcribing it that Butches of Bristol was Gm not Bb and ended up leaving the F# as is.

I'm surprised The Frolic is all Amaj, the B really sounds very modal to me but I'll edit it accordingly. Do you want the d in 13 to be NB'd as better sharpened?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: smiley on May 26, 2019, 09:27:50 AM
We should have a competition for finding the best title.

Roose no.172: "Bonny Lad With His Trousers On"

While I'm here, I was wondering if I should include an F:  tag to list the URL for the duplicate tune from tunearch.org  for example

T:Oaks Assembly. Roose.0171, The
N: identical to No.119, p.60 in Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances vol.5 (London, 1788)
F:https://tunearch.org/wiki/Oaks_Assembly_(The)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 26, 2019, 09:43:48 AM
While I'm here, I was wondering if I should include an F:  tag to list the URL for the duplicate tune from tunearch.org  for example
I've been using comments (%) for all stuff like that - this is probably ducking the issue a little, but it's
my normal practice for my own scripts, so I just stuck with it, leaving it to wiser heads than mine to
make the final decision...

I have a Roose tune called 'Quoz', which I thought was a little bizarre...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 26, 2019, 03:24:48 PM
Any ideas on what this is? At first I thought it might (just) be 'So.', but (a) it don't look
like other 'So's in my batch and (b) it's above the music rather than below. It looks
like a 'ho' with a bit of a twiddle at the start of the 'h', but I'm not sure...

I did try sharpening it up with GIMP, but no dice...

Ta.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 26, 2019, 04:09:16 PM
We should have a competition for finding the best title.

Roose no.172: "Bonny Lad With His Trousers On"

While I'm here, I was wondering if I should include an F:  tag to list the URL for the duplicate tune from tunearch.org  for example

T:Oaks Assembly. Roose.0171, The
N: identical to No.119, p.60 in Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances vol.5 (London, 1788)
F:https://tunearch.org/wiki/Oaks_Assembly_(The)
Not necessary.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 26, 2019, 11:57:10 PM
Any ideas on what this is? At first I thought it might (just) be 'So.', but (a) it don't look
like other 'So's in my batch and (b) it's above the music rather than below. It looks
like a 'ho' with a bit of a twiddle at the start of the 'h', but I'm not sure...

I did try sharpening it up with GIMP, but no dice...

Ta.

Comparing the script with other script in the ms, the first thing that looks like a bit like an "a" is almost certainly an embellishment, making the text (possibly) ho. Could this be an abreviation of "hold", as in fermata?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 27, 2019, 06:43:56 AM
...the first thing that looks like a bit like an "a" is almost certainly an embellishment, making the text (possibly) ho...
I think you're right (looking at it again, having slept on it). 'ho.' it is. Thanks.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 27, 2019, 10:38:09 AM
Having relished the clarity of my pdf, I now realise that there is a mark above a note I don't recognise ( Roose 218, bars2 & 6: ) :
It's a straight line down, a sort of exclamation mark ( ! ) without the dot at the bottom.
It's above the end note in (e/f/g)e  sequence, i.e. above the final e.
Any ideas?
Q
getting going.....
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 27, 2019, 11:01:06 AM
Here's another one, the opening bar of 220:
I'm used to -say- G>B to give emphasis on the first note of the two.
How would I reverse it to give emphasis on the second note?
Never seen that before, but very clear, then reverting in the next bar to the normal x>y!
Confused of Devon  ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 27, 2019, 11:33:10 AM
Having relished the clarity of my pdf, I now realise that there is a mark above a note I don't recognise ( Roose 218, bars2 & 6: ) :
It's a straight line down, a sort of exclamation mark ( ! ) without the dot at the bottom.
It's above the end note in (e/f/g)e  sequence, i.e. above the final e.
Any ideas?
Q
getting going.....

It's a 'wedge', a fiddler's accent mark. !wedge! will reproduce it. If there are lots of them in a piece add this to the header
U:w=!wedge!
This a user defined field to give you a shortcut of w to add the character.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 27, 2019, 11:55:39 AM
Here's another one, the opening bar of 220:
I'm used to -say- G>B to give emphasis on the first note of the two.
How would I reverse it to give emphasis on the second note?
Never seen that before, but very clear, then reverting in the next bar to the normal x>y!
Confused of Devon  ;)

just reverse the symbol: G<B. Sounds like a Scottish snap.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 27, 2019, 11:57:13 AM
Is the complete manuscript viewable anywhere on line?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 27, 2019, 12:31:47 PM
A far as I'm aware this is a privately owned manuscript and the owner has given permission for the VMP to transcribe it. The only person to have access to the whole thing is ChrisP.

( Roose 218, bars2 & 6: )

Incidently, there is no point quoting a tune number from the manuscript as you (with the exception of ChrisP) are the only one with access to your batch! Try posting an image if you need clarification, fortunately your description in this instance was very clear.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 27, 2019, 12:52:50 PM
Thanks Greg and Pete, will annotate the respective tunes.
( Duh.... Greg, never thought of reversing it, that was an option I hadn't tried!)

Yes, I should have posted a picture, apologies for my laziness, but it is a Bank Holiday  (:)
thanks all
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 27, 2019, 01:07:56 PM
Just a quick comment to everyone about asking for explanations of unusual signs, markings, symbols, etc.
If you post a photo or scan of the music, please could you include more, if not all, of the tune in question. It helps if the symbol can be seen in the context of the whole tune, not just a small fragment. You might need to add a second scan of the zoomed-in bit though.

Thanks!


Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 27, 2019, 07:11:13 PM
...It's a straight line down, a sort of exclamation mark ( ! ) without the dot at the bottom.
It's above the end note in (e/f/g)e  sequence, i.e. above the final e...
It's a 'wedge', a fiddler's accent mark. !wedge! will reproduce it. If there are lots of them in a piece add this to the header
Oh, dear! I've been assuming that was 18th-century-speak for a 'dot' as in  '(e/f/g).e' - is that wrong then?

Sorry Chris!!! Only two instances of this I think, both in #0195, both below the note.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 27, 2019, 07:47:55 PM
That's exactly what I had except it was above a d in the stave.
They be wedges!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 27, 2019, 08:55:05 PM
Talking about sharpened notes.  I am finding versions of tunes that seem to be copied from tune books and perhaps copied incorrectly.  For example
Tullochorum Highland Fling (the name took some decyphering)  This is written in one sharp with flattened F's notes except for two that do not carry the sign.  If it did flatten those two F's it would be a very good match for 'Tulluchgorum' aka 'The Celebrated Highland Fling' WES.101.Westrop’s 120 Country Dances, 1860’s.  I have been wondering if it was simply copied out incorrectly especially the final repeat mark is missing, the start repeat is present. My file currently has the two F sharps in it but it does sound wrong to the ear.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 27, 2019, 10:16:21 PM
Sorry Chris!!! Only two instances of this I think, both in #0195, both below the note.

I've seen a lot of wedge marks over the years, but never below the note so that's a first.

!_wedge! doesn't work, and to be honest I think it's simply wrong, I would replace it with the symbol above and put it down to writers error.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 27, 2019, 10:46:31 PM
Sorry Chris!!! Only two instances of this I think, both in #0195, both below the note.

I've seen a lot of wedge marks over the years, but never below the note so that's a first.

!_wedge! doesn't work, and to be honest I think it's simply wrong, I would replace it with the symbol above and put it down to writers error.

Is it worth an NB?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 27, 2019, 11:21:14 PM
Sorry Chris!!! Only two instances of this I think, both in #0195, both below the note.

I've seen a lot of wedge marks over the years, but never below the note so that's a first.

!_wedge! doesn't work, and to be honest I think it's simply wrong, I would replace it with the symbol above and put it down to writers error.

Is it worth an NB?
No, I don't think so. Just use the !wedge! code and leave it at that. It's not even 'writer's error', just the idiosyncracy of the music handwriting of the time, in the same way as downward stems of notes are often placed to the right of the note head.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 28, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Talking about sharpened notes.  I am finding versions of tunes that seem to be copied from tune books and perhaps copied incorrectly.  For example
Tullochorum Highland Fling (the name took some decyphering)  This is written in one sharp with flattened F's notes except for two that do not carry the sign.  If it did flatten those two F's it would be a very good match for 'Tulluchgorum' aka 'The Celebrated Highland Fling' WES.101.Westrop’s 120 Country Dances, 1860’s.  I have been wondering if it was simply copied out incorrectly especially the final repeat mark is missing, the start repeat is present. My file currently has the two F sharps in it but it does sound wrong to the ear.
Really it's in the key of what we would nowadays call the modal key of G Mixolydian, which has the same notes as Cmaj but is "centred" on G. So it could be notated simply as no sharps with a NB to that effect, and in fact that's what I would do in this case, for databaseing. The concept of modes other than major and minor was strange territory in those days however, and the theory (or theories) took (are taking) a while to develop. The original copyist here realised it centred on G, so key sig Gmaj with accidentals was appropriate, and had the advantage of warning the cello not to play in C.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 28, 2019, 09:37:31 AM
I add that I mean call it K:Gmix
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 28, 2019, 10:32:58 AM
Thanks Chris
I have changed it to Gmix and it looks and sounds much better. I'll make the relevant notes.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 28, 2019, 01:04:39 PM
On the subect of keys, what key would you use for this? I have put it in Dmix, but I'm open to correction.
Also, Is it a good idea to mark the end point of the Da Capo with a fine or a fermata?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 28, 2019, 03:42:23 PM
Dmix would be one sharp, the Cs aren't accidental naturals so the tune has 2 sharps. Better just to use K:D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 28, 2019, 06:13:30 PM
aaargh. When I looked at it I didn't spot the second sharp. Say no more.
What about the Da Capo?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 28, 2019, 06:26:18 PM
It is what it is, go back to the beginning, I don't know what you mean by the end point, no mention of al fine. Play ad infinitum and finish at the end of the B, at least that's the way I understand it, I could well be wrong of course, no doubt Chris will advise if he spots this. Right, I'm off to do the last three tunes of my batch.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 28, 2019, 06:57:43 PM
On the subect of keys, what key would you use for this? I have put it in Dmix, but I'm open to correction.
Also, Is it a good idea to mark the end point of the Da Capo with a fine or a fermata?
The key is Dmaj. Mark it with !fine!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 28, 2019, 06:58:45 PM
It is what it is, go back to the beginning, I don't know what you mean by the end point, no mention of al fine. Play ad infinitum and finish at the end of the B, at least that's the way I understand it, I could well be wrong of course, no doubt Chris will advise if he spots this. Right, I'm off to do the last three tunes of my batch.
I would interpret that as
Play A (4 bars)
Repeat A (4 bars)
Play B (4 bars)
Go back to the beginning (capo) and play A (4 bars)
Total 16 bars.
They don't often mark !fine! but when they do they use the symbol that we now use for fermata. To avoid confusion we use the modern !fine!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 28, 2019, 07:37:52 PM
My turn to miss something. I saw the opening repeat of the B but didn't register the lack of a closing repeat mark, sorry Greg!

I must watch out for that one.  ::)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 28, 2019, 08:11:48 PM
It is what it is, go back to the beginning, I don't know what you mean by the end point, no mention of al fine. Play ad infinitum and finish at the end of the B, at least that's the way I understand it, I could well be wrong of course, no doubt Chris will advise if he spots this. Right, I'm off to do the last three tunes of my batch.
I would interpret that as
Play A (4 bars)
Repeat A (4 bars)
Play B (4 bars)
Go back to the beginning (capo) and play A (4 bars)
Total 16 bars.
They don't often mark !fine! but when they do they use the symbol that we now use for fermata. To avoid confusion we use the modern !fine!

Cheers Chris. That's how I read it.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 29, 2019, 06:02:56 AM
Not directly relevant, but in a context where a 19th-century MS is being transcribed, some folks
might find the following of general interest:

Dellow, R. E., Who were the folk?, Folk Music Journal, Vol. 11, No. 4, pp6-31, 2019.

The paper is about the actual people (as opposed to the music) who were behind 3 (or is it 4?)
19th-century MSS.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: smiley on May 30, 2019, 11:33:05 AM
Any suggestions for the attached tune title? Boynun's Delight is my best guess.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 30, 2019, 12:02:17 PM
Any suggestions for the attached tune title? Boynun's Delight is my best guess.

Jan (my wife, and a language expert) agrees with 'Boynun's Delight'. She also suggests it is possibly a phonetic rendition of the Irish pronunciation of the name 'Beynon'.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 30, 2019, 12:17:15 PM
Nope. And we're told that handwriting standards are slipping.
I think it's Boynun, and what therefore you have to put, though you may wish to comment on its illegibilty.
I would agree that it may have been Beynon ( a Welsh name) , but since there is no reference online that I can find to a "Beynon's Delight", then it's not relevant.
Boynun - a Turkish name, and Turkey was often in the news, but improbable
or could it be a character from Gulliver's Travels? - a long shot.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 30, 2019, 03:16:04 PM
I am finding a lot of 18 century ballads/broadsides in my selection and searching for the names is taking me to productions at Drury Lane and old song books. Crossing through the leading actors and actresses of the early mid C18 and plenty of military and naval bravado. Perhaps my favourite title is "Let Us All Be Unhappy Together" I believe this is Charles Dibdin. Another good one "Tho' late I was plump" which is another song from a play based on a Irish slip jig Moll Roe.  Lots of phonetic spelling as well - Balina Mona = Ballinamona = Ballimona another Irish tune. I am also noting that adding in one or two additional minor words is directing me to tunes when searching for similar ones. But I haven't found them all.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 31, 2019, 12:57:25 PM
K:Bb
M:6/8
L:1/8
B/c/|dBG FED | Cccc2B/c/ | dBG FDF | (G/A/B)BB2:|

I know the tune from somthing I have probably sung but cannot put my finger on what.  It is in Roose under 'Since Love is the Plan' (C18 song) I keep finding myself wanting to sing something like "stories/glories of old" at the end of the extract.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on May 31, 2019, 02:35:32 PM
I have solved my puzzle - Its a hymn - "When a knight won his spurs in the stories of old" to the tune "Stowey" "an old english melody"
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 02, 2019, 03:02:29 PM
I have very clearly written 'Pia' underneath the first bar of the C music of my tune.
Trying to google it but throws up all sorts of odd answers, pia mater = 'tender' being the most likely.
Do I write 'pia' under the stave, 'NB' it??
Thoughts please!
Q
on the 5th tune named 'something' Races.
Was he a keen follower I wonder?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 02, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
I have a spreadsheet listing tunes from various printed sources with over 8600 entries listed. I can find the following tunes for 'Races'

Blaydon
Hexham
Camptown
Kilkenny
Mullingar
Newmarket
Blanchland
Thropton
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 02, 2019, 06:11:49 PM
You're missing Bedford Races (in John Clare MS)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 02, 2019, 07:59:16 PM
Yes, all this racing info is good, but what about my 'Pia'?
Currently notated as "Pia" above the offending bar!
Q
currently just notated 7 races!!!!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 02, 2019, 08:17:45 PM
Yes, all this racing info is good, but what about my 'Pia'?
Currently notated as "Pia" above the offending bar!
Q
currently just notated 7 races!!!!

How about a picture?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 02, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
Yep ok.
Will get onto it drekly!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 02, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
try this..... not used to attaching stuff so hope it's ok...…..
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 02, 2019, 09:20:56 PM
I have a spreadsheet listing tunes from various printed sources with over 8600 entries listed.
I can find the following tunes for 'Races'

Blaydon, Hexham, Camptown, Kilkenny, Mullingar, Newmarket, Blanchland, Thropton

To which you can add:

Nottingham, Doncaster, Galway, Litchfield, Sidmouth, York, Brighton, Knutsford, Chester,
Buxton, Manchester, Carlisle, Odiham, Burford, Borne

Sorry - I know it's OT, but it's been a long 'music' day, I need a little light relief  ::) ...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 02, 2019, 11:04:37 PM
try this..... not used to attaching stuff so hope it's ok...…..

Worked fine. Best guess is piano (=shh!)

Have you worked out the title yet?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 03, 2019, 09:29:31 AM
Greg: Yes, it's the third (C) part of a tune entitled 'Nottingham Races.
The tune's in a run of Races (!) just before Chelmsford Races, and just after Burford Races.
Why all the fascination with races?
Confused of Devon.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 03, 2019, 02:58:23 PM
Greg: Yes, it's the third (C) part of a tune entitled 'Nottingham Races.
The tune's in a run of Races (!) just before Chelmsford Races, and just after Burford Races.
Why all the fascination with races?
Confused of Devon.

erm, a day a the races is a traditional entertainment for both gentry and the hoi poloi and a jolly good day out?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 03, 2019, 03:09:47 PM
well yes, though the ms author seems to have written a lot in one go!
I do remember the famous Newcastle fiddler and hornpipe master James Hill naming hornpipes after favoured horses of the day so I suspect you're right!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 08, 2019, 10:46:39 AM
Having the feeling that I was a Racing Correspondent, I've now become a 19C version of Trip Advisor  ;D
Tunes being Trip to this and Trip to that.....
All good fun!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 08, 2019, 01:43:17 PM
When looking at the ABC file of the tunes transcribed so far on ChrisP's webpage I was surprised to find that I'm the only transcriber so far to match the X: field number to the manuscript tune number thus:

X:0613
T:Untitled. Roose. 0613
M:2/4
L:1/8
U:w=!wedge!
Q:1/4=80
K:A
|:A2 c/B/A/G/|A2 c/B/A/G/|Af ed|cB/c/ AE|\
A2 c/B/A/G/|Af ed|cBAG|{G}A2A2:|
|:E2 FG &A,4|A3E &A,4|FEFG|A3E|\
FEFG|Afed|cBAG|{G}A2A2:|
|:c//d//e3/ c//d//e3/|dbb2|B//c//d3/ B//c//d3/|caa2|\
A//B//c3/ A//B//c3/|Afed|cBAG|{G}A2A2:|
K:Am
|:e2d/c/B/A/|f2e/d/c/B/|b2^g^f/g/|aecA|\
we(cBA)|wf(dcB)|cBA^G|{G}A2A2:|

All of the others, as far as I can see, have sent files in that start at X:1. Surely this will make sorting the tunes in the finished abc file into the correct order a greater task than it ought to be? As I'm the odd one out perhaps it's my logic that's flawed! The tune above is good fun btw, give it a listen.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 08, 2019, 03:52:52 PM
I match the x number with the Roose number too....
I'm about 3/4  through my first batch, been a bit busy at home so feel like I'm being a bit slow....
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 08, 2019, 04:26:19 PM
It's not a race Q. Chill!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: playandteach on June 08, 2019, 04:26:34 PM
I have very clearly written 'Pia' underneath the first bar of the C music of my tune.
Trying to google it but throws up all sorts of odd answers, pia mater = 'tender' being the most likely.
Do I write 'pia' under the stave, 'NB' it??
Can't see it on your image - too small for my eyes, but the most likely word is piu, which just means 'more' of something, piu mosso is faster. So if you've got an earlier comment, such as a tempo mark or a dynamic, then it could be a stronger version of that.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 08, 2019, 05:04:53 PM
'pia' my first thought - piano as in p
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 08, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
When looking at the ABC file of the tunes transcribed so far on ChrisP's webpage I was surprised to find that I'm the only transcriber so far to match the X: field number to the manuscript tune number thus:

X:0613
T:Untitled. Roose. 0613
M:2/4
L:1/8
U:w=!wedge!
Q:1/4=80
K:A
...All of the others, as far as I can see, have sent files in that start at X:1. Surely this will make sorting the tunes in the finished abc file into the correct order a greater task than it ought to be? As I'm the odd one out perhaps it's my logic that's flawed!...

You're right Pete. I think Chris posted something including that information. It's how I've done it. I've also got B and Z fields based on an example that I thought was from Chris. Maybe not. Not too late to correct them if I do have it wrong. I'm just trying to proof read them.

B:Roose MS, poss. Manchester, mid-late 19th century.
Z:vmp.2019.Greg Bradfield-Smith.


Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 08, 2019, 05:10:37 PM
'pia' my first thought - piano as in p

and mine, definitely looks like Pia
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 08, 2019, 05:14:29 PM
Pete : Yes I know and I really enjoy the journey so don't race through my quota.
I just don't want to hold up the overall process that's all.

P&T: thanks, will check back and see if I've missed any other comment, but don't think I have.
I've left it as a comment above the bar as it is written, and double check it's spelling whilst I'm there!
Cheers
Q

Ah as I post...... Greg has a Pia too!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 09, 2019, 09:53:51 AM
Looking through my set.  I have a batch of 'minstrel' songs with titles reflecting that content.  Tracking the titles; I hope my search history isn't reviewed; I find many references to the 'Ethiopian Seranaders'. They have a batch of songs in the Library of Congress and else where where tunes are reasonable matches (they tend to be piano scores).  The singers names suggest they blacked up as do some press reports.  They toured England for two years ~1845 and did play in Manchester.  I certainly have a very close match of titles so am wondering if they are a source.  And also whether Roose was in a concert band.  There many references to So(lo), Sym(phony), Chorus. In many cases I have found verse, chorus and musical flourish, a lot of flourish.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 09, 2019, 11:50:49 AM
(1) ...'Ethiopian Seranaders'...They toured England for two years ~1845 and did play in
Manchester....am wondering if they are a source.  (2) And also whether Roose was in a
concert band...
(1) That's a nice idea! Do those dates help decide which of the three John Rooses was
the one who wrote out the MS?

(2) Do we actually know which John Roose was responsible for the MS? I don't think
we do, but the date of those tours may help?

John Roose(2) was a constable in Manchester's finest. I wonder if 'twas him, and he was
in the Police Band? There was a Police Band - I was told this while playing at a Morris
dance-out t'other night. When I have a minute (Tuesday, I hope), I shall toddle along
to the Police Museum in Manchester and see if they have any information...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 09, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
I don't think i wrote down the website with the tour information.  If wanted let me know and I'll see if I can find it in my history.  I also had a lot of 'English' tunes from C18 - published songs, in an earlier part 0500, the minstrel tunes are at least 50 years later.  If I needed an estimate I'd say everything I have is pre 1850 and a lot pre 1800.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 10, 2019, 10:03:06 AM
https://minstrels.library.utoronto.ca/content/ethiopian-serenaders-1846-48 (https://minstrels.library.utoronto.ca/content/ethiopian-serenaders-1846-48)
The first English Tour 1846 -48
The came back later with William Henry Lane 'Master Juba' thus the project name I think.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 13, 2019, 12:27:48 PM
Are these squiggles below the stave trills?
The first one I read as a '3' for a triplet, but then changed my mind after encountering the second.
I presume a trill?
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on June 13, 2019, 12:52:48 PM
Are these squiggles below the stave trills?
The first one I read as a '3' for a triplet, but then changed my mind after encountering the second.
I presume a trill?
Q
I think they are 'prall' trill* symbols. Basically the same as a mordent (a single shake to the note above and then back to the main note) but the downward squiggle at the end is probably indicating that it is an inverted mordent, so a single shake to the note below and then back to the main note.
In ABC the coding is !lowermordent!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordent)

*Pralltriller - German for 'bounce trill'
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 13, 2019, 12:55:24 PM
Thanks Steve, I will notate as you suggest.
Many thanks
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 16, 2019, 10:37:45 PM
I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, it always does for me. I've been skipping along transcribing crystal clear 16 and 24 bar tunes and my worst problem has been working out a few titles written in the spidery script reserved for doctors writing presciptions. Then, out of the blue, musical hell breaks loose. I go from three or four tunes per page to a single piece that fills two pages. After the first few bars it resorts to 16 semiquavers to the bar, after another 20 bars of that it switches to flute music  based around e' on the third leger line above the staff, ad infintum.

Bah! Poo! Humbug! and lots of similar noises, I'm not a fan of these marathon transcriptions of stuff nobody is ever going to play! I had one a while back that even ChrisP baulked at checking and just decided to accept the transciption as it was about four times longer than the piece I'm moaning about here.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 16, 2019, 11:06:56 PM
I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, it always does for me. I've been skipping along transcribing crystal clear 16 and 24 bar tunes and my worst problem has been working out a few titles written in the spidery script reserved for doctors writing presciptions. Then, out of the blue, musical hell breaks loose. I go from three or four tunes per page to a single piece that fills two pages. After the first few bars it resorts to 16 semiquavers to the bar, after another 20 bars of that it switches to flute music  based around e' on the third leger line above the staff, ad infintum.

Bah! Poo! Humbug! and lots of similar noises, I'm not a fan of these marathon transcriptions of stuff nobody is ever going to play! I had one a while back that even ChrisP baulked at checking and just decided to accept the transciption as it was about four times longer than the piece I'm moaning about here.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

You want to swop it for a bunch of quadrilles?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: playandteach on June 16, 2019, 11:10:59 PM
I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, it always does for me. I've been skipping along transcribing crystal clear 16 and 24 bar tunes and my worst problem has been working out a few titles written in the spidery script reserved for doctors writing presciptions. Then, out of the blue, musical hell breaks loose. I go from three or four tunes per page to a single piece that fills two pages. After the first few bars it resorts to 16 semiquavers to the bar, after another 20 bars of that it switches to flute music  based around e' on the third leger line above the staff, ad infintum.

Can you export abc from Sibelius files? I am happy to type this long one up into Sibelius. Just let me know.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 16, 2019, 11:20:30 PM
I don't have Sibelius and I am limited to abc only. This isn't usually a problem, to be honest it's not a problem now, just a PITA.

My wife has/uses Sibelius constantly. Our bickering on the subject is a cause of constant amusement.  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 16, 2019, 11:23:19 PM
You want to swop it for a bunch of quadrilles?

Erm no ta, B*gger off!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 16, 2019, 11:31:23 PM
I am finding this manuscript easier to work on (apart from many of the titles) than Buttrey, though less challenging seems to mean less interesting. However, it would still be nice to view it in its entirety at some point. Is this on the agenda?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 16, 2019, 11:52:56 PM
I've no idea Greg. We are at the mercy of the new owner of the manuscript who seems to be massively ammenable to making the whole thing public and is content to simply own the original. I can't fault that!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: smiley on June 17, 2019, 05:40:52 AM
I go from three or four tunes per page to a single piece that fills two pages. After the first few bars it resorts to 16 semiquavers to the bar, after another 20 bars of that it switches to flute music  based around e' on the third leger line above the staff, ad infintum.

I've found similar examples of virtuoso passages written in a couple of MSS by early C19th rural fiddlers in Ireland and was astonished by their apparent technical expertise when playing in higher positions and the fiendishly quick runs of notes in some parts.  Spoils the stereotype of the "hack village fiddler" I've read about in writings by some contemporary observers from those times.

Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 17, 2019, 10:39:04 AM
Sibelius - ABC.  I've not manged to find a way to transfer properly. Saving a midi file brings it over but not cleanly for a simply line tune. I haven't tried multiple voices.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 17, 2019, 10:39:24 AM
I am finding this manuscript easier to work on (apart from many of the titles) than Buttrey, though less challenging seems to mean less interesting. However, it would still be nice to view it in its entirety at some point. Is this on the agenda?
Do you mean as images of the original? What the owner does with the images is up to him, and I'll have a chat when we're done, but for my part I should point out that these compressed b/w PDFs altogether come to 240Mb, compared with the total capacity of my website, which hosts ALL the other VMP stuff, of 250Mb.
PDFs of the transcriptions, and of the total progress so far, are on my website.
The transcribing is proceeding apace, with fewer than 200 tunes still to allocate. I have a backlog of checking to do....
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 17, 2019, 10:50:45 AM
I am finding this manuscript easier to work on (apart from many of the titles) than Buttrey, though less challenging seems to mean less interesting. However, it would still be nice to view it in its entirety at some point. Is this on the agenda?
Do you mean as images of the original? What the owner does with the images is up to him, and I'll have a chat when we're done, but for my part I should point out that these compressed b/w PDFs altogether come to 240Mb, compared with the total capacity of my website, which hosts ALL the other VMP stuff, of 250Mb.
PDFs of the transcriptions, and of the total progress so far, are on my website.
The transcribing is proceeding apace, with fewer than 200 tunes still to allocate. I have a backlog of checking to do....

I meant ABC/PDF transcriptions, this time, thanks, Chris.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 17, 2019, 10:59:35 AM
Please see the attached image of Roose 559.

Are the twiddles above and below the triplets in bars 4 & 12 the prall trills referred to a few posts back?
I can't quite decide...

Ta.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 17, 2019, 11:29:01 AM
Please see the attached image of Roose 559.

Are the twiddles above and below the triplets in bars 4 & 12 the prall trills referred to a few posts back?
I can't quite decide...

Ta.

Roger

The notation below bar 4 looks like "Pia" which I believe is Piano (quiet) There looks to be a For (Forte, loud) a few bars later. The mark under bar 12 looks like a triplet. [unless you mean the 3's]
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 17, 2019, 11:33:30 AM
The notation below bar 4 looks like "Pia" which I believe is Piano (quiet) There looks to be a For (Forte, loud) a few bars later. The mark under bar 12 looks like a triplet.
Yup. I was OK with the Pia and For, but I did wonderalso  about those twiddles being to
denote a triplet, though neither of them look (much) like a 3. I will proceed on that basis.

Ta.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 17, 2019, 12:14:50 PM
if they are not triplets you have too many beats in the bar.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 17, 2019, 05:18:28 PM
...neither of them look (much) like a 3. I will proceed on that basis.

Ta.

I saw very similar marks in the Buttery MS (when he bothered to put any in). I think that was just the way they liked to figure them, then.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 17, 2019, 06:04:37 PM
if they are not triplets you have too many beats in the bar.
Absolutely! First, I tried assuming they were not triplets, and making the preceding crotchet
into a quaver just to see (hear) what happened. I wasn't impressed - at least not favourably...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Anahata on June 17, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
Do you mean as images of the original? What the owner does with the images is up to him, and I'll have a chat when we're done, but for my part I should point out that these compressed b/w PDFs altogether come to 240Mb, compared with the total capacity of my website, which hosts ALL the other VMP stuff, of 250Mb.


I am actually hosting the "official" VMP site at https://www.village-music-project.org.uk.
It's taking up about 750MB now. If It goes over 1GB, it will cost John Adams another £10 year.
I can arrange for large-volume data to be on cheaper storage though, with slightly slower access. I haven't worked out a customer price for it yet, because nobody's used it yet...

For now I'd be quite happy to host scans of the originals on that basis pro bono, if there's a demand for it. There's about 65GB of free space on that volume, not being used at the moment.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 18, 2019, 09:37:52 AM
Hi Gang,
I'm off on a set of hornpipes currently.
I have this 'm-like' notation as in image below.
Any ideas as to what it is and how to notate?
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 18, 2019, 09:42:48 AM
Hi Gang,
I'm off on a set of hornpipes currently.
I have this 'm-like' notation as in image below.
Any ideas as to what it is and how to notate?
cheers
Q

The ones above the stave are "Tr", i.e., trills.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 18, 2019, 10:14:25 AM
I thought it could be a trill, in fact looking again it looks like 'tr' not 'm'
OK, will annotate as trill.
thanks
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 18, 2019, 10:42:07 AM
I've got something I'm not sure about.   I have transcribed a bunch of Quadrilles. They are titled "Quadrilles No 1", "Quadrilles No 2" etc.  Each Quadrille is divided into parts, with a distinctive repeat structure. Each part is allocated it's own tune number so, for instance, Quadrilles No 1 is made up of Tune 835: Pantalon, 836:L'Ete, 837:La Poule, 838:Pastourelle, 839:Finale. These part names are of the dance movement and are, with variations, common to these Quadrilles, so Quadrilles No. 1 has a first movement called Pantalon, so does Quadrilles No 3.

Because the movements are all part of the same piece I think they should be kept together. My worry is that, if they are made seperate abc files they are likely to not all be included in a search.

What is the best way to organise them?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 18, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
As I had no real idea what a quadrille was I looked it up. Wikepedia gives useful information.  If you haven't looked it might help.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 18, 2019, 12:18:22 PM
As I had no real idea what a quadrille was I looked it up. Wikepedia gives useful information.  If you haven't looked it might help.

I understand Quadrilles and their structure, thanks. It's how to organise the ABC files so that the 5 (or 6) different movements of the complete dance sequence respect the author's tune numbering but remain a unit so that a tune search pulls up the whole thing in a way that makes it clear they are one dance.

I wondered about

X:0355
T:Quadrilles No 1. Roose 0355
T:Pantalon. Roose 0355
etc.

Then
X:0356
T:Quadrilles No 1. Roose 0356
T:L'Ete. Roose 0356
etc.

And I wondered about

X:0355
T:Quadrilles No. 1. Roose 0355
rest of header then
P:1 Pantalon. Roose 0355
abc script
P:2 L'Ete. Roose 0356
abc script 
etc.

[Edit:Mind you, I can think of at least three more ways of doing it which make as much, or as little sense]
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 18, 2019, 10:04:34 PM
Or
T:Quadrilles No.1(#1) Pantalon. Roose.0855

T:Quadrilles No.1(#2) L'été. Roose.0856

T:Quadrilles No.1(#3) La Poule. Roose.0856


etc
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 18, 2019, 11:40:32 PM
Or
T:Quadrilles No.1(#1) Pantalon. Roose.0855

T:Quadrilles No.1(#2) L'été. Roose.0856

T:Quadrilles No.1(#3) La Poule. Roose.0856


etc

Thanks Chris

How do I get accents into an abc file? Whenever I try, they don't work.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 19, 2019, 09:10:00 AM
Or
T:Quadrilles No.1(#1) Pantalon. Roose.0855

T:Quadrilles No.1(#2) L'été. Roose.0856

T:Quadrilles No.1(#3) La Poule. Roose.0856


etc

Thanks Chris

How do I get accents into an abc file? Whenever I try, they don't work.

These usually work (remember to have NumLock ON) https://www.alt-codes.net/ (https://www.alt-codes.net/)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 19, 2019, 09:48:42 AM
How do I get accents into an abc file? Whenever I try, they don't work.

These usually work (remember to have NumLock ON) https://www.alt-codes.net/ (https://www.alt-codes.net/)

Thanks Chris. I think I just learned something really useful that I should have known, but didn't
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 19, 2019, 09:49:54 AM
How do I get accents into an abc file? Whenever I try, they don't work.
These usually work (remember to have NumLock ON) https://www.alt-codes.net/ (https://www.alt-codes.net/)

The alternative is to use '\' sequences. For example \e' gives é (e-acute), \e` gives è (e-grave).
I think these are bullet-proof. There is a table of these sequences on page 33 of Guido Gonzato's
ABC manual: http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abcplus_en.html (http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abcplus_en.html).

You can also use octal codes (page 35) to get the same characters, plus many more. For example
\201 gives ♯, \202 gives ♭, \203 gives ♮.

Finally, there's a utility called BabelMap which allows you to insert any character under the sun,
using raw characters, NCR(hex), NCR(dec), HTML or UCN codes, eg: ⛄ ⛅ ⛴ ⛱ ☕ ☘ ☎, etc.
If you have a song in Cherokee or Mongolian (for instance), you can insert the words into your
ABC file... BabelMap is available from http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html (http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html)
and also https://portableapps.com/ (https://portableapps.com/), and probably elsewhere too...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 19, 2019, 09:56:39 AM
How do I get accents into an abc file? Whenever I try, they don't work.
These usually work (remember to have NumLock ON) https://www.alt-codes.net/ (https://www.alt-codes.net/)

The alternative is to use '\' sequences. For example \e' gives é (e-acute), \e` gives è (e-grave).
I think these are bullet-proof. There is a table of these sequences on page 33 of Guido Gonzato's
ABC manual: http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abcplus_en.html (http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/abcplus_en.html).

Aah! Thanks. Looked at Guido's Guide but missed that.
Who thought I'd still be learning stuff at my age? Never bothered much at school.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 19, 2019, 11:19:10 AM
Who thought I'd still be learning stuff at my age?

I like to think that I learn something new every day of my life. I didn't know about the octal codes and although I'd heard of (and possibly used) Babelfish as a translator, BabelMap is also new to me and will be investigated in the near future. Excercising the little grey cells is every bit as important as keeping the creeky joints moving!

Accents and other characters can also be generated by holding down the 'alt' key and typing the code in with a leading zero, then let go of the alt key and the character appears (use the numeric keypad as the numbers across the top of the keyboard won't work). Using alt+0169 gets you a © symbol, alt+0198 = Æ and so on. There, you've gone and learned something else now, I hope it doesn't make you giddy!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 19, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
Here's an odd start bar line to a tune ( attached )
Any thoughts, or should I just put the normal |:  ?
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 19, 2019, 02:40:33 PM
ah.... the end of the tune the bar end is the same with 'DC' above it.
How to notate?
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 19, 2019, 02:58:38 PM
Who thought I'd still be learning stuff at my age?

Accents and other characters can also be generated by holding down the 'alt' key and typing the code in with a leading zero, then let go of the alt key and the character appears (use the numeric keypad as the numbers across the top of the keyboard won't work). Using alt+0169 gets you a © symbol, alt+0198 = Æ and so on. There, you've gone and learned something else now, I hope it doesn't make you giddy!

My brain is starting to make creaking noises now. Spoiled for choice  :D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 19, 2019, 06:02:40 PM
...I didn't know about the octal codes...BabelMap is also new to me and will be investigated in the near future.
I think the main point about the octal (and hex, dec, html, ucn) codes is that they are typed in as
pure ASCII strings, and should therefore work on any terminal/keyboard - there's no tiresome
specifying of character sets, etc. It's not let me down so far...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 19, 2019, 08:43:37 PM
ah.... the end of the tune the bar end is the same with 'DC' above it.
How to notate?
Q

Just use the usual |: and :| As for the D.C. at the end, is there a fermata over a barline anywhere in the tune? If so that will be the end of the Fine measure.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 19, 2019, 08:49:07 PM
OK will notate as normal.
Yes, fermata over end of A music.
Thanks Pete...
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 19, 2019, 11:51:48 PM
So the four dots on the repeat marks plus a DC and Fine probably means play AABB AABB A.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 20, 2019, 12:30:16 AM
So the four dots on the repeat marks plus a DC and Fine probably means play AABB AABB A.

Or, could it mean AABBA AABBA?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 20, 2019, 12:40:19 AM
I don't follow your thinking Greg, Fine means 'Finish Here', you can't do that twice.  ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 20, 2019, 01:00:57 AM
I was wondering if the instruction meant play each cycle through the playing sequence, with the DC instruction actioned after each repeat. so the sequence goes AA BB  DC to A fine first cycle AA BB DC to A fine second cycle. As a logical expression,I suppose it would depend where, with regard to the nesting, the DC instruction was.  Having thought it through, enough to try and explain it, I haven't convinced myself, though,
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 20, 2019, 09:47:00 AM
OK. I have notated as '|: and :|' in the abc with an 'NB' to bring it to the attention of our Much Respected Learned Sage to let him decide.
Thanks both.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Anahata on June 20, 2019, 10:21:34 AM
I seem to remember that the topic of repeat bars with 4 dots came up before, and the consensus was that two dots and four dots mean exactly the same thing.
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeat_sign) is consistent with this, and at the end of that article the Unicode symbols for repeat signs show only the two-dot variety - the Unicode consortium are such completists that if any consulted expert thought that the four dots variety meant something different I'm sure they would have included them with a separate code.
The four-dot repeat tends to appear in older manuscripts; you never see it in modern printed music.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 20, 2019, 03:28:57 PM
Oh thanks, I'd missed it before.
Yes have annotated it with two dots and an nb note.
Thanks.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 22, 2019, 01:58:33 PM
Any ideas? Kenmure's ?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: playandteach on June 22, 2019, 03:05:59 PM
Is it Kenmuire's Awa?
There is a tune called Kenmuire's On and Awa.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on June 22, 2019, 06:29:03 PM
Or alternatively Kenmures
https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/?search_term=on+and+awa&subject=&place=&project=&people=&format=&event= (https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/?search_term=on+and+awa&subject=&place=&project=&people=&format=&event=)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 22, 2019, 11:02:34 PM
Is it Kenmuire's Awa?
There is a tune called Kenmuire's On and Awa.

I'll settle for that.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 25, 2019, 12:51:38 PM
Here's a puzzle. "Grace notes" noted after, and in unison with, pizzicato notes, for violin. What do they mean and how should they be notated? Simply putting d{d} doesn't attach it to the first d, but the following A instead. (http://) BTW, I can't seem to upload the pic. I've opened 'Attachments and other options', browsed and located the pic on my computer, the name appears next to browse, but there is no way to select it like I would expect?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 25, 2019, 12:54:12 PM
Oh, there it is after all!
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on June 25, 2019, 01:11:52 PM
(1) Here's a puzzle. "Grace notes" noted after, and in unison with, pizzicato notes, for violin. What do they mean and how
should they be notated? Simply putting d{d} doesn't attach it to the first d, but the following A instead.
(2) BTW, I can't seem to upload the pic. I've opened 'Attachments and other options', browsed and located the pic on my
computer, the name appears next to browse, but there is no way to select it like I would expect?
(1) Rats! I was going to ask the same question about 'postfix' grace notes in some of my Roose
toons, and sorta assumed you would know... :D
(2) I had the same problem a few days ago. It seemed to clear itself up after a couple of hours.
Network problems? Software rot?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Dick Rees on June 25, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Here's a puzzle. "Grace notes" noted after, and in unison with, pizzicato notes, for violin. What do they mean and how should they be notated? Simply putting d{d} doesn't attach it to the first d, but the following A instead. (http://) BTW, I can't seem to upload the pic. I've opened 'Attachments and other options', browsed and located the pic on my computer, the name appears next to browse, but there is no way to select it like I would expect?

Chris...

I suspect this would indicate a bowed note played after a plucked note.  This is common in Scandinavian fiddle tunes when two consecutive bars have a repeating pattern, the first bar quarter note pizz, the second bar eighth notes pizz/arc, pizz/arc.  The notation seems a logical shorthand to include both arco and pizz in the same bar when the entire bar is marked pizz.  Timing would be eighth notes.  I would think if a grace note was intended that the standard diagonal slash theough the stem would still be employed.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on July 21, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
Sort of gave up on trying to notate that one exactly as written, since we'll likely never need it again anyway.

Separate subject === dating evidence. The MS contains material from most periods prior to about 1850. However, I would like to date it a bit closer, as some of the hornpipes seem to be "modern" in mid-Victorian terms. Jenny Lind is the latest firm date, though somebody (I can't remember who atm) suggested that one of the tunes first appeared c1860. Can anyone else come up with a firmly dated tune?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on July 21, 2019, 04:08:21 PM
...Can anyone else come up with a firmly dated tune?
It's a different thread of (potential) 'evidence', but:

Do we know which of the three John Roose's was 'responsible' for the MS? Maybe it was passed
from one to t'other? I ask because we know JR(2) was in the Manchester Police force. There was
a Police Band, and I have been to the Police Museum (as I promised on June 9) and have asked if
they have any evidence of Constable Roose having been a member of the band. They have given
me his service dates (1873-1908), but they  don't have any explicit evidence that he was a band
member.

However: they are currently  scanning their photographs of the band, some of which have the
band members identified, so perhaps other evidence may allow a speculative dating of the MS
based on evidence other than straight dating of the tunes? Don't hold your breath - I think this
scanning process is going to take months rather than weeks, as it's a small museum(*) run by
volunteers, with only one professional curator (as far as I can see).

(*) It's also an absolutely crackin' museum - well worth a visit - check the website for opening, but basically,
it's Tuesdays & Bank holidays. https://www.gmpmuseum.co.uk/ (https://www.gmpmuseum.co.uk/)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on July 21, 2019, 06:48:34 PM
The minstrel stuff - I found a lot that seemed to come directly from the Ethiopian Serenaders who were touring in 1845 for a couple of years.  So you would likely place those to 1845 plus several years.  A lot of the earlier stuff I did had a late C18 look.  And then the hornpipes you seemed to recognise as James Hill and a bit later than 1850.  If they were all mixed up you might suggest a cummulative approach.  But it looks as if he got a source and copied without too much selection.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on July 22, 2019, 09:22:36 AM
...Can anyone else come up with a firmly dated tune?
It's a different thread of (potential) 'evidence', but:

Do we know which of the three John Roose's was 'responsible' for the MS?

The problem, as I've alluded to on the webpage http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Roose/RooseInfo.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Roose/RooseInfo.html), is that the only primary evidence we have is the printed address label. We may estimate the age of the label by the printing method (20th C?), but it says nothing about the age of the contents. The label is professionally printed, so it is very likely that when the label was stuck in the book there was a big stack of sheet music needing labels too, and which would be much more contemporary with the label. Roose[3] was a professional musician, and we can be fairly sure that whether he played in theatres, dance halls, occasionally orchestras or police bands, and whatever instrument he played, he would not have had much opportunity to play Georgian dance tunes. It may be something donated by an acquaintance and subsequently disregarded, or it may have been an antiquarian interest of Roose[3], who liked going to Manchester Central Library and digging through the music there. Or his father, Roose[2], or his grandfather Roose[1]. Or almost anybody really.
We just don't know the author, or the reason for its compilation, but we may at least establish the dates of the tunes and thus the likely date of its making.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on July 24, 2019, 04:43:58 PM
Help please with the title of No. 568.

It looks like "The <something> <something> a Cobler's Wife", but I can't make it out!
Thanks in advance...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on July 24, 2019, 04:55:31 PM
The first word looks more like, Tho'. The supposed lower case "e" doesn't correspond with the others in the title, and the apostrophe is quite plain. This might give a better clue as to what the other two words might be.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on July 24, 2019, 05:02:16 PM
The first word looks more like, Tho'...
On mature reflection (as they say), I think you're right. Still can't make it out tho' (:)...:(
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on July 24, 2019, 05:39:49 PM
Not that I'm intentionally trying to put more cats amongst your pigeons, but............

The third last letter looks the same as the third letter, even along with the apostrophe! I'm not convinced on that whole word being "Wife", anyway. Is that really a capital W, it doesn't seem to be connected in the middle? And which letter does that feint flourish above the apostrophe belong to?

But the second word seems to be "Late", IMHO.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Stiamh on July 24, 2019, 08:19:45 PM
I second Late and the third word seems to end in -ived. Lived? Except the "L" doesn't have quite the same flourishes as the L in Late.

BTW Tho' might just be That.

Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Sebastian on July 24, 2019, 10:11:03 PM
«Tho’ Late I was a Cobler’s Wife.»

It’s from the ‹opera› The Devil to Pay or The Wives Metamorphos’d [here (https://books.google.de/books?id=56myiha4X_EC&lpg=PA19&ots=oT7AaKu32H&dq=tho'%20late%20i%20was%20a%20cobler's%20wife&hl=de&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false)] & [here (https://books.google.de/books?id=NBNhAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA19&ots=ZzJsmv1KCU&dq=tho'%20late%20i%20was%20a%20cobler's%20wife&hl=de&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false)] on Google Books. The musical notation you will find [here (https://books.google.de/books?id=kJ2Dbb8m0KUC&lpg=PP1&ots=uLI41K_JaT&dq=tho'%20late%20i%20was%20a%20cobler's%20wife&hl=de&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false)] on Google Books, too.

[Edit: typo]
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Stiamh on July 24, 2019, 11:07:10 PM
Well done, Sebastian.

(I tried Googling various combinations of the keywords and got nowhere.)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Sebastian on July 25, 2019, 01:05:04 AM
I tried Googling various combinations of the keywords and got nowhere.
Sometimes I think back to the time before Google (or even Altavista). I would have never been able to solve this riddle. On the other hand, in that time I would have never come across it in the first place. :o
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on July 25, 2019, 06:26:06 AM
«Tho’ Late I was a Cobler’s Wife.»

It’s from the ‹opera› The Devil to Pay or The Wives Metamorphos’d'...
Oooh! Thank you! I was coming around to "Tho’ L<xxx> <xxxx> a Cobler’s Wife.", but
the "I" and "was" are so close together that I assumed it was one word. Thanks again!

There appears to be a high-resolution copy of the libretto/script here: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/4464049.pdf (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/4464049.pdf)
There's a nice clear score here: https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/105711347 (https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/105711347)

There's a shift to cut-time in the MS which isn't shown in the score referenced above..

It's very educational is all this, innit? I knew about The Beggar's Opera and a few more of
these English ballad operas but had never heard of Charles Coffey before, and as a spin-off, I
found a fascinating paper about broadside ballads (and music) in colonial North America... (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on July 30, 2019, 07:28:13 PM
I've almost run out of tunes to check, if anybody is close to finishing before I go off to Sidmouth?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on July 30, 2019, 10:08:20 PM
I'm close Chris but a few days away, when is Sidmouth?
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 30, 2019, 10:12:54 PM
I'm close Chris but a few days away, when is Sidmouth?
Friday 2nd - Friday 9th August.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on July 30, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
I'll be there this Sunday to Friday, then back home.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on August 06, 2019, 12:24:16 PM
No. 570 this time. See attached screenshot.

The title looks like  "The Grand S<xxx> <xxx>'s a bumper of Wine", but I can't make it out.
I'm not sure about the word below the opening bar either - "Pomposo", maybe?

Any ideas?

Thank you, in anticipation.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Sebastian on August 06, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
The Grand S<xxx> <xxx>'s a bumper of Wine
The Grand Summum bonum’s a bumper of Wine.

I’m not an expert on modern insular handwriting, but there may be an hyphen between Summum and bonum.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on August 06, 2019, 01:27:25 PM
I'm not sure about the word below the opening bar either - "Pomposo", maybe?
Very probably Pomposo. (https://musicterms.artopium.com/p/Pomposo.htm)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on August 06, 2019, 02:08:30 PM
The Grand Summum bonum’s a bumper of Wine.
Thank you, sir!

Do I detect a whiff of sulphur here? Summum bonum medicinae sanitas:
[Christopher Marlowe, The Tragical History of Dr. Faustus, Act 1, Scene 1. I have my copy
of the play in front of me right now...]
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on August 06, 2019, 02:26:14 PM
Yay! I've just completed my final Roose transcription.  :D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 06, 2019, 05:49:46 PM
The Grand Summum bonum’s a bumper of Wine.
Thank you, sir!

Do I detect a whiff of sulphur here? Summum bonum medicinae sanitas:
[Christopher Marlowe, The Tragical History of Dr. Faustus, Act 1, Scene 1. I have my copy
of the play in front of me right now...]


I think you may have nailed this one.  Summen Bonum's A Bumper of Wine= The  Supreme Good Is A Big Glass Of Wine. Does it for me.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Sebastian on August 06, 2019, 08:40:40 PM
Do I detect a whiff of sulphur here? Summum bonum medicinae sanitas:
»The highest good in the art of healing is health« doesn’t sound very sulphuric to me. Summum bonum is a common philosophic expression. (If you want to castigate yourself, you could read Cicero’s De finibus bonorum & malorum.)

Oh, wow! Now it’s on the internet! When I was a pupil, I had to buy it as a real book. Now you can let the computer search the text: »voluptatem cum summum bonum diceret [sc. Epicurus], primum in eo ipso parum vidit, deinde hoc quoque alienum;« – Well, there is definitely a whiff of sulphur.  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on August 07, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
...If you want to castigate yourself, you could read Cicero’s De finibus bonorum & malorum.)...
Don't do Roman philosophers (like Pete & Dud, I ain't got the Latin); English dramatists, that's me  :D .
Of course, Marlowe was a far better writer than that Shakespeare feller (ducks, hurriedly)...  :D
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 07, 2019, 09:14:43 AM
...If you want to castigate yourself, you could read Cicero’s De finibus bonorum & malorum.)...
Don't do Roman philosophers (like Pete & Dud, I ain't got the Latin); English dramatists, that's me  :D .
Of course, Marlowe was a far better writer than that Shakespeare feller (ducks, hurriedly)...  :D

Of course, there are those who believe that Marlowe was Shakespeare. Takes all sorts.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on September 04, 2019, 12:04:31 AM
Just tidying up my last set of abc's

anyone care to say how this is spelled?

Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Anahata on September 04, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
I've seen the tune elsewhere as Tom Tolly's Hornpipe.
(The first 5 notes don't look right - usually a third lower!)
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on September 04, 2019, 08:34:03 AM
I've seen the tune elsewhere as Tom Tolly's Hornpipe.
(The first 5 notes don't look right - usually a third lower!)

Yes, I have seen it under three groups of names, Tom Tolley's  (Joshua Jackson), Tom Fowler's (Winder's) and General Wayne's March (someone on the session) and various permutations of these. O'Niell's calls it Tom Tully.

I have never seen it spelled as Tulliss or Tullifs, though. I can't remember seeing the F for s thing elsewhere in Roose so I have it as Tollifs, but I'm not sure.

I guess it will get another note acknowledging my ignorance.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on September 04, 2019, 08:45:48 AM
Something very obvious in Buttrey was then we were still in randomly spelt names, using variations on phonetic spellings.
Though a much later manuscript, presumably we were still in a period of phonetic spelling?

Or.... then as now, you learn a tune and name from someone and perhaps they haven't got it quite right, either the dots or name?
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on September 04, 2019, 09:54:11 AM
Yes, Tom Tolley's spelt phonetically, which is evidence for oral transmission.
I would put that as
T:Tom Tolliss Hornpipe (it has been pointed out elsewhere that long s should be just be s and not f, unless we're trying to be amusing)
then again spelt as per normal
T:Tom Tolley's Hornpipe
I don't think it needs ",aka" as its not an alternative title, only an alternative spelling for the index.
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on September 04, 2019, 10:50:38 AM
I've seen the tune elsewhere as Tom Tolly's Hornpipe.
(The first 5 notes don't look right - usually a third lower!)

It's also in Aird's Airs as 'Tom Tullus's Hornpipe', and it's in 2/4. The firſt bar-and-a-bit
are different too.

5 minutes later: Yeah, thought so, we play it in the Beech Band Seſsion, coupled with
the Glouceſter Hornpipe - different again...
Title: Re: The VMP Roose MS Project
Post by: ChrisP on September 18, 2019, 07:47:40 PM
The John Roose manuscript has now been completed and the results can be found here:-
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html)
A huge thank you to all the transcribers.
Please have a look and report any howlers.
Now I'm going to lie down for a bit.
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