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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: David Summers on June 26, 2019, 10:31:04 PM

Title: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on June 26, 2019, 10:31:04 PM
Hi All,

Just bought myself an accordion, just for the fun of it. Found a good Hohner Pokerwork on ebay, thats had the major bits replaced, and in BC (which I wanted, as hopefully I'll be able to play in any key with work - yes against english tradition - but like the idea of semitones apart).

Anyway usual question here, can it age be identified? I haven't yet received it so just have the ebay pictures, and looks like quite an old model. So any ideas before I get it?

Regards,

David.
(http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/s-l1600.jpg) (http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/s-l1601.jpg)

Its going to be fun learning the device ;)
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: playandteach on June 27, 2019, 12:23:44 AM
This is the model I first started on.  I particularly liked the very long bellows and the honking bass. Although mine was BbEb (t'wasn't mine at all of course)
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: Peadar on June 27, 2019, 07:47:00 AM
First off - it is not a Pokerwork.   Pokerwork is a style of embossd decoration, applied in Gold on a black ground to thousands (mllions???) of  post war Hohner melodeons of various model numbers with stradella cornered case work,  These included the single row spoonbase HA112/113/114 models and the Stradella  bassed (bass buttons set into the casework)  single row 1040. These are all catalogue model numbers. However the definitive "Pokerwork" is the two row.....and I have no idea what "number" was allocated to to those.

The "Laurel Wreath" decoration on yours is I believe pre-war, possibly early 1930's. Many of the Hohner model numbers differ from others only in their detailing. The wooden keyboard with a steel cover plate is I think also a 1920's/30's feature. That particular decoration yours has was also produced in White (Gold decals on white painted box). I think you wiillalso  find that it is a slightly different size to the pokerwork models. A 45 degree stagger between the two rows of bass buttons is also I beileve an indicator of earlier manufacture (not clear from the photos.)

But you are dead right- melodeons are a fun instrument. And yours predates the development of the modern English D/G tuning. It looks a grand yoke altogether.

Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: Theo on June 27, 2019, 08:24:18 AM
Quite correct it’s not a Pokerwork,  but to be strictly accurate Hohner never used the “Pokerwork” as a model name.

Yours is a different model but is the same size and shape as the modern “Pokerwork” and most parts are interchangeable.  Yours is a better quality version and if it still has the original reeds they are likely to be very good quality, responsive and with a lovely warm tone that is unique.  By the sound of it the original reeds have been replaced,  I hope that the replacements are equally good.

I agree that it’s most likely 1930s,  possibly 40s.

What are the major bits that have been replaced?
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 27, 2019, 09:01:39 AM
Is this a relative, or something different?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hohner-Button-Accordion/264372792364?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on June 27, 2019, 09:58:11 AM
Same beastie but in white, as Theo said they were mostly in either black or white, with the gold spray. I have one sitting in a shelf near to hand, which is in B/E

SJ
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: David Summers on June 27, 2019, 10:01:45 AM
Theo and Peader, thanks for the excellent feedback. Yes although sold as a Pokerwork, I'm not surprised that its not - as much as anything very different grill structure.

Ebay posting said new leather bits, new bellows gasket, and new dural reeds. I'm interested as well to see how well it has been done.

Browsing way back through this forum, someone posted a similar picture with model number 3515 - don't know if that makes sense.

Anyway just a quick glance and could see it was an old model; but surprised it looks like a 1930/40 model. Guess this means that it may well have an odd bass system?

Should hopefully get it this weekend, then I'll learn more :)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on June 27, 2019, 11:39:31 PM
One of the things I love about Melnet are the copious opportunities it gives me to put my foot in my mouth...

Sitting in the workshop a "Back burner" project for the winter is this white AD. Externally has seen a lot more (ab) use than David's, and it is in white,   but otherwise I think it is the same model.. and as I have just discovered takes a Pokerwork sized grille (270 x 115 mm).  It looks to be the same model as Greg has spotted.
If all the reeds have been  replaced at once  then likely to have a normal (present day) chord arrangement.







Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 01, 2019, 08:17:27 PM
well its arrived. And yes it does look like 90 years old, but in very good condition. The metal work has huge marking on it ...

All leatherwork  is very new, like looks like it hasn't been used since mounted. The bass seems to be modern set up, anyway the 2 D's are the same, and going up through the notes just about fits in. Hadn't realised that the chords are up on octave! Bottom of the right has side says "GC" I think, but looks like it is BC as described (well the B and E that are on both the B and C key seem the same.

One of the base buttons is new, so thats been replaced, rest clearly some some age in them.

Sound, well as its my first accordion can't say if they are truly excellent - but they are certainly good. some notes are a bit slow to start (e.g. the bass in places). I don't plan to open this up and look, until I get used to the device.

Its clear I need some practice to change notes, so is it going up and down the octaves on the C line, then on the B line. Then slowly changing keys as I get used to it. Or should I do tunes "165454216 16544345 165454216 12543234 14254333323456 142543333234"?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: tirpous on July 02, 2019, 04:24:42 AM
Quote
Browsing way back through this forum, someone posted a similar picture with model number 3515 - don't know if that makes sense.

Yes, that's a 3515 you have.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: george garside on July 02, 2019, 11:32:34 AM
, so is it going up and down the octaves on the C line, then on the B line. Then slowly changing keys as I get used to it. Or should I do tunes "165454216 16544345 165454216 12543234 14254333323456 142543333234"?

to me the easiest way to get the basic hang of playing a BC box is to learn anad practice scales ( as do players of many other instruments)  Start with om the row scales i.e in B & C starting on the 3rd button push .( same fingering on each row. then try simple a tune or two.

next have a go at the scale of G obviously starting on G on the C row (keyboard chart is on this forum)  then repeat as above

next the D scale 

then the A scale

there are 2 notes available on both push and pull  i.e. B and E   go back to the tunes you have already played and experiment using the alternative B & E which are useful both to control the bellows opening and also to ease some trickyh fingering.

that should keep you going for some time!

george ;)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 02, 2019, 08:01:08 PM
Thanks George,

So do scales in 2 octaves where possible (e.g. C and B); where only one octave possible (e.g. F) just do one, or start from the second? I guess just do major keys first, as minor is just a case of starting a minor third down.

Slowly move round the keys in the circle of fifths, so adding one sharp or one flat at a time.

With cross fingering, do that in scales as well? Eg in G for the sequence DEF#G do both Pull-Push-Push-Push and Pull-Pull-Push-Push, where the second is better in scales, but in music may be better doing the Push E, so learn both?
Title: Re: Hohner Pokerwork identification
Post by: David Summers on July 02, 2019, 08:06:31 PM
This is the model I first started on.  I particularly liked the very long bellows and the honking bass. Although mine was BbEb (t'wasn't mine at all of course)
See what you mean about the bass. Reading up on it, the pokerwork and I presume this 3515 have the base made up of a very low octave, and a mid octave? I'm going to have to open the box at some stage just to see the reeds installed ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 02, 2019, 08:09:00 PM
And whilst posting - any suggestions for a case to get for this beast, its lasted 90 years so far, and would be good to see it go another 90 ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: george garside on July 02, 2019, 08:12:45 PM
I find the major keys  easier on a Bc  and the minor keys easier on a CC#.  that is because  you simply use the  same fingering so eg  the key of G on a BC is the same fingering as Ab  a CC# box. same goes for keys of D & Eb etc etc.  ( on a BCC# box you get 12 keys for 5 scales plus lots of alternative direction notes to help control bellows direction- the smallest BCC# box is the hohner trichord  wihich is the same size as a corona)

As tto the choice of pull or push for B & E   learn the scales first using one of these and once you have got that right try using the opposite direction B & E  with the objective of being able to use whichever provides the easiest fingering for a particular part of a particular tune or to stop the bellows going ever outwards!

george
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on July 02, 2019, 08:12:55 PM
GC on the side of the fingerboard is almost certainly telling you that the box was manufactured s a GC and then converted to BC by changing th reeds. (I get the impression that there is an English cottage industry based on converting 2 row melodeons of all known tunings to DG....there's probably also an Irish diaspora cottge industry converting boxes to BC)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Stiamh on July 02, 2019, 08:42:06 PM
Thanks George,

So do scales in 2 octaves where possible (e.g. C and B); where only one octave possible (e.g. F) just do one, or start from the second? I guess just do major keys first, as minor is just a case of starting a minor third down.

Slowly move round the keys in the circle of fifths, so adding one sharp or one flat at a time.

With cross fingering, do that in scales as well? Eg in G for the sequence DEF#G do both Pull-Push-Push-Push and Pull-Pull-Push-Push, where the second is better in scales, but in music may be better doing the Push E, so learn both?

If I were you I would stop after exploring the D and G scales and learn some tunes. Moving "round the keys in the circle of fifths" is a noble endeavour but assuming you want to use the instrument to play a particular kind of music, I don't think you should delay starting to play tunes.

Mind you, I know a man, a former member of this forum, who spent many hours practising scales on his 3-row ADG, learning all the different ways of playing them smoothly across the rows. He got very good at it. Much better at it than actually playing tunes on the instrument, at which he was decidely less impressive. He seemed quite happy to carry on that way. Maybe you would be?  8)

Assuming you wouldn't, turn to tunes. If you decide to learn a new tune in a key you haven't tackled before, that would be a good point at which to learn the scale concerned. Equally important would be to practise arpeggios in each key as well as the scale (going up and going down).

Mastering all the scales and playing in remote keys can come later.

Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: george garside on July 02, 2019, 08:49:54 PM
Thanks George,

So do scales in 2 octaves where possible (e.g. C and B); where only one octave possible (e.g. F) just do one, or start from the second? I guess just do major keys first, as minor is just a case of starting a minor third down.

Slowly move round the keys in the circle of fifths, so adding one sharp or one flat at a time.

With cross fingering, do that in scales as well? Eg in G for the sequence DEF#G do both Pull-Push-Push-Push and Pull-Pull-Push-Push, where the second is better in scales, but in music may be better doing the Push E, so learn both?

If I were you I would stop after exploring the D and G scales and learn some tunes. Moving "round the keys in the circle of fifths" is a noble endeavour but assuming you want to use the instrument to play a particular kind of music, I don't think you should delay starting to play tunes.

Mind you, I know a man, a former member of this forum, who spent many hours practising scales on his 3-row ADG, learning all the different ways of playing them smoothly across the rows. He got very good at it. Much better at it than actually playing tunes on the instrument, at which he was decidely less impressive. He seemed quite happy to carry on that way. Maybe you would be?  8)

Assuming you wouldn't, turn to tunes. If you decide to learn a new tune in a key you haven't tackled before, that would be a good point at which to learn the scale concerned. Equally important would be to practise arpeggios in each key as well as the scale (going up and going down).

Mastering all the scales and playing in remote keys can come later.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 02, 2019, 08:59:00 PM
If I were you I would stop after exploring the D and G scales and learn some tunes. Moving "round the keys in the circle of fifths" is a noble endeavour but assuming you want to use the instrument to play a particular kind of music, I don't think you should delay starting to play tunes.

Mind you, I know a man, a former member of this forum, who spent many hours practising scales on his 3-row ADG, learning all the different ways of playing them smoothly across the rows. He got very good at it. Much better at it than actually playing tunes on the instrument, at which he was decidely less impressive. He seemed quite happy to carry on that way. Maybe you would be?  8)

Assuming you wouldn't, turn to tunes. If you decide to learn a new tune in a key you haven't tackled before, that would be a good point at which to learn the scale concerned. Equally important would be to practise arpeggios in each key as well as the scale (going up and going down).

Mastering all the scales and playing in remote keys can come later.
Struth no! I'm already counting as I do the scales, so I can try and ram in my brain which are tones and which semitones. Then can move onto thirds and forths, and fifths. And at that stage there is a hope to pay tunes by ear ....
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on July 02, 2019, 10:26:07 PM
I know you want to play English Music but I would recomend David Hanrattan's "The Box" as a good get-you-going book for an adult learner. It walks you through a first few tunes - OK they are Irish but learning any tunes - or even just sight reading them helps you find your way round the keyboard....covering the ground that the first few pages of all the DG melodeon tutorial books do (but for the BC) you can then use any of the tutorial books for English melodeon as a tune resource.

Iam using the books the other way round- i.e. with 1 rows and an AD 2 row "The Box" is a graded tune resource for learning tunes, but told me nothing about how to find keys on the board.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: george garside on July 02, 2019, 11:04:04 PM


 

Mastering all the scales and playing in remote keys can come later.
  ..
[/quote

I agree with this and was only suggesting a pecking order for EVENTUALY learning more scales.  i.e. learn G scale than some tunes in G before adding D scale and some tunes in D  etc etc.   Also by learning tunes I am talking about learning to play them with some degree of musicality rather than just the right notes in the right order.  As to tunes start with very simple ones  that are already in your head. eg saints go marching in,  Better to play very simple tunes well than complicated ones tunelessly!

george
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: george garside on July 02, 2019, 11:08:18 PM
I too recommend Hanrahans BC book as a useful point of reference even if you don't use many of his tune choices

george
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Stiamh on July 03, 2019, 12:05:27 AM
The Hanrahan book may be useful if you start from a position of utter cluelessness, but I reckon that for anyone who is comfortable thinking in terms of the circle of fifths it will be of limited use, if not a waste of money.

David I think you'll get a lot more out of reading this discussion (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=10813.0) than perusing The Box. Just my opinion. I bought it when I was starting out and found it exceedingly disappointing. Although he does say somewhere something along the lines of "you should try to play the D scale using no more than three fingers", sort of a throwaway remark, but actually the most valuable piece of information in the whole book.  8)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Henry Piper on July 03, 2019, 11:12:03 AM
If the instrument concerned was originally in G/C and later converted to B/C could the apparent discrepancy in the Octaves of the bass be accounted for by assuming that the "convertor",  changed only the "G" reed blocks to "B" blocks without altering the other set thus causing the mismatch ??
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 03, 2019, 10:10:43 PM
The Hanrahan book may be useful if you start from a position of utter cluelessness, but I reckon that for anyone who is comfortable thinking in terms of the circle of fifths it will be of limited use, if not a waste of money.

David I think you'll get a lot more out of reading this discussion (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=10813.0) than perusing The Box. Just my opinion. I bought it when I was starting out and found it exceedingly disappointing. Although he does say somewhere something along the lines of "you should try to play the D scale using no more than three fingers", sort of a throwaway remark, but actually the most valuable piece of information in the whole book.  8)
Thanks Stiamh, that thread was very useful. Actually I've only been using 3 fingers so far, because on all melodeons, on the push the tonic, third and fifth keep repeating, but on the low octave the pull is one note higher; whilst on the second octave the pull is one note lower. So for me keeping 3 fingers on the tonic third and fifth reminds me that when I move I need remember that the push is changing. Now I recon I'll need to abandon this method, when I get used to the layout - but at the moment am just trying to cram the layout into my head. The zero and third octave are a mare right now, why in an upward scale you go 9pull 10pull 9 push to get ABC is just doing my brain in ....

Circle of fifths is one thing I got from choral singing, it makes understanding keys tractable. And for a semitone melodeon tells one how to play in different keys. So for a key of G play on the C diatonic, but take F# from the B line rather than the F. Similarly a key of F, do the C diatonic, but take Bb from the B line (where its called A#). Similarly key of E play on the B diatonic with one note from the C diatonic.

One just has to hope you never get called on to play in Ab or Eb as those keys are almost 50/50 split between the B and C diatonic.

Think I need a few more days (which means maybe 1 hour playing) of getting scales right, as at the moment am not getting the bellows and keys  moving consistently, so I can keep even timing. This I'll need before I can do any rhythm.

Then I'll move onto tunes, and I'm actually not that worry about key - working from sheet music, once I've worked out the key - I'll just transpose into B or C as seems fit, e.g. just play tonic, second, third, etc.

Really just need practice now, and shed loads of it ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
If the instrument concerned was originally in G/C and later converted to B/C could the apparent discrepancy in the Octaves of the bass be accounted for by assuming that the "convertor",  changed only the "G" reed blocks to "B" blocks without altering the other set thus causing the mismatch ??
Though I had convinced myself that the bass notes at least have been changed. fourth apart always have one key (bottom right) that plays same note on push and pull. On a BC device that plays DF; and I think on my device the note changes, so bass must be a changed to a semitone melodeon.

The octave (give or take) on the bass between chords and bass, I think I put down to Hohner thing. On the Voices and Tunings – A Beginner’s Guide they explain that bass notes is two  voices and two notes an octave apart, one very low, and one mid. On my model 3515 I assume the same has been done, and the low octave is some stonking great powerful beast. Think this is what playandteach was referring to.

Now the chords, must be 3 voice, they are major chords. So suspect then have just take 135 from the mid octave.

Now I can eventually check all this, just checking by ear, and reproducing chords on the right hand side (e.g. Cmajor can be played simultaneously on the right and left hand). At some stage I'll open the box and look at the reads.

Oh yes, right hand is somewhere between wet and very moist, like some notes the beats is up at 4Hz, and all are over 1Hz. It almost gives a reason to hold notes ....  (:)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 04, 2019, 12:37:39 AM
And whilst posting - any suggestions for a case to get for this beast, its lasted 90 years so far, and would be good to see it go another 90 ...

Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 04, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?
Thanks Greg.

Rees web site: http://www.melodeons.com/ doesn't mention any cases.

CGM Music and Acorn have then, but painful price, so I'll need to suck air for a bit.

Yes almost certain it would fit a pokerwork case, I need to measure it - but its set up in a very similar way, surprising small - will have to look inside at some time, it must have 112 or so reeds inside - and that must be quite tight packing!
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 04, 2019, 06:45:00 PM
Circle of fifths is one thing I got from choral singing, it makes understanding keys tractable.
And on the way cycling into work thought about this a bit more.

On the Circle of fifths, if you move left and not right (so add flats) the first flats that you add are Bb and Eb; so going left and you quickly loose the two notes that are on B and C diatonic. So in F major, and D minor you loose B, and by Bb Major and G minor lost E as well. This means most of the keys with flat in there is only *one* way to play every note, so there will no way to change if you Push or Pull, so will easy to get to the end of the bellows. Guess all you can do then, is skip a note and use the air button to get back to the middle of the bellows.

Hmm wonder how it will work. Take C minor:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb that becomes Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Pull - so actually isn't too bad.

Anyway need to get back to C major, to at least play it smoothly ....

And more thoughts, the keys with flats, when you know which notes have flats, are easy from the C diatonic, just move down to B and left - with same pull and push, and that will work for all keys. Which makes all the flat keys fairly easy to learn (:)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: davidd on July 04, 2019, 07:06:09 PM
I came at the accordion from a decidedly non musical background and found Hanrahans book to be a nice source of tunes to listen to and the music is helpful but it doesn't seem to offer much in the way of instruction.  I found P. J. Hernons DVD to be much better way to learn a handful of tunes and showing how to get around the keyboard.  Being able to see his fingers on the buttons was very helpful to me as I am a very much a visual learner.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Stiamh on July 04, 2019, 07:26:28 PM
Hmm wonder how it will work. Take C minor:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb that becomes Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Pull - so actually isn't too bad.

Anyway need to get back to C major, to at least play it smoothly ....

Not too bad? Actually I think you'll find Cm a bit of a dog, at least for fast tunes, at least in the early stages of your playing career. The main reason being that whereas in C major you can use the outer row E to take three notes in one gulp, smoothing things out nicely, the Eb won't let you do that. (And of course in several of the main keys used in trad music, on B/C you can take gulps of more than three notes, or at least consecutive gulps of two or three.)

So in Cm you will face a lot of constant in-and-outing, in linear passages at least, the kind that beginning B/C players don't take kindly to. ;) (I don't go running after dance tunes to play in Dm on my C#/D.)

Time to get off the bike and start learning a few real-world tunes?  (:)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 04, 2019, 07:39:02 PM
Not too bad? Actually I think you'll find Cm a bit of a dog, at least for fast tunes, at least in the early stages of your playing career. The main reason being that whereas in C major you can use the outer row E to take three notes in one gulp, smoothing things out nicely, the Eb won't let you do that. (And of course in several of the main keys used in trad music, on B/C you can take gulps of more than three notes, or at least consecutive gulps of two or three.)

So in Cm you will face a lot of constant in-and-outing, in linear passages at least, the kind that beginning B/C players don't take kindly to. ;) (I don't go running after dance tunes to play in Dm on my C#/D.)

Time to get off the bike and start learning a few real-world tunes?  (:)
(:) you've identified what i find hardest to far, the push and pull, at the same time as changing notes, and or hand position. So keep DEF all on the pull. I'll try that in a mo one one octave.

Alas going into work isn't something I can escape from right now, and I'm happier doing it on a bike, than in a car in traffic jams listening to radio 4. Its also good thinking time, as its totally free - random thoughts cost nothing, and occasionally you have a good though ;)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 04, 2019, 11:00:41 PM
Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?

Did you ask Reese?
He mentioned them in a reply to a post.
£50

If that's too much you might struggle to find what you're after.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 05, 2019, 11:06:20 AM
Greg I'll try PMing Rees.... £50 for a good case would be fine, but need to know its the right case ....

Something odd going on in the chords that I havn't work out.

On the bass side, if I walk bass notes on 3 buttons, CDEFGA then play out the expected diatonic sequence. The 4th bass button (GD) reproduces the same D and G, just with pull and push swapped. So this is as expected.

The chords should all match the bass notes, but walking the bass chords through the same sequence, and they are all over the place. The GD chords aren't the same when repeated, in particular the two G chords are way different, almost like one is missing the low note ... Anyway will take some time this afternoon to try and work out what I actually have on those chords.

On C scale, taking E from the B row does help, but need to get these sequences into muscle memory. I can walk up the scale fine, but on the way down I'm always making fingering mistakes. Probably need to practice the C CDC CDEDC CDEFEDC CDEFGFEDC CDEFGAGFEDC CDEFGABAGFEDC CDEFGABCBAGFEDC sequence, need to at least get that smooth ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 05, 2019, 05:03:14 PM
Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on July 06, 2019, 09:57:51 PM
Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...

You're away!
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 06, 2019, 10:31:13 PM
Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...

Pete at Acorn's Fusilli bags are excellent soft bags. You might find them slightly cheaper elsewhere, but not significantly. They are far better than any others around at the moment.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 07, 2019, 12:38:59 PM
Isn't fusilli a kinda of pasta   ???
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 07, 2019, 01:24:26 PM
Isn't fusilli a kinda of pasta   ???
Yes. The gig bags are made by Fuselli.
But no matter, as Greg says, they are excellent bags. I have two from Pete:
This one (https://www.acorninstruments.co.uk/inst.cfm?instID=39) for my 2.2 row 1914 box and this one (https://www.acorninstruments.co.uk/inst.cfm?instID=40) for my Mory.
The smaller bag especially gets a lot of use when out playing for dancing. I've had it at least 6 years and it is still virtually as good as new with no sign of wear and with the heavy-duty steel zips intact and completely secure. Both gig bags are well padded and with good strong straps and very comfortable to carry around. Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 07, 2019, 01:39:34 PM
Thanks TDG and SF - this are the kind or recommendations I'm after so the acorn bags are £10 more than the CGM bags, but two excellent reviews here says that the £10 is money well spent. Thanks for this, otherwise I'd question why £10 extra ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 10, 2019, 03:13:05 PM
The chords should all match the bass notes, but walking the bass chords through the same sequence, and they are all over the place. The GD chords aren't the same when repeated, in particular the two G chords are way different, almost like one is missing the low note ... Anyway will take some time this afternoon to try and work out what I actually have on those chords.
So have half convinced myself that on one of the G chord buttons, one of the notes isn't firing. If I can get the grill off (less easy that the trebble side) I guess I can easilly check by covering one of the holes through to the reeds? Is this the easiest method, or pulling the pins to look directly at the reeds?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Gena Crisman on July 10, 2019, 04:08:15 PM
Well, the quote unquote easiest method is probably using a spectrum analyser program on a smart phone or computer with a microphone, and checking if three fundamentals show up. But, principally yes you can also isolate the holes or otherwise interfere with the box to discover one way or the other.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 10, 2019, 04:58:30 PM
Hmmm yes good idea. First question is how to record on computer - yes guess my tablet has a method.

Analysis is easy, I already use https://www.sonicvisualiser.org/ (https://www.sonicvisualiser.org/) for turning songs into sheet music ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 10, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
Thanks TDG and SF - this are the kind or recommendations I'm after so the acorn bags are £10 more than the CGM bags, but two excellent reviews here says that the £10 is money well spent. Thanks for this, otherwise I'd question why £10 extra ...

A third option is the bags Eagle Music sell

https://www.eaglemusicshop.com/prod/squeezebox-gig-bags-hard-cases/mally-bag.htm

I have two of the "Mally" shoulder bags. They are ok, but if you're out and about a lot the Fuselli rucksacks are my preference.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 10, 2019, 05:26:56 PM
Hmmm yes good idea. First question is how to record on computer - yes guess my tablet has a method.

Analysis is easy, I already use https://www.sonicvisualiser.org/ (https://www.sonicvisualiser.org/) for turning songs into sheet music ...

Most computers have built in microphones, which can be better than  you expect. Get yourself  usable audio recording software. Audacity is genuinely free and pretty good. The best you could wish for in a lot of circumstances. Then you need to learn how to use it...
https://www.audacityteam.org/
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: invadm on July 10, 2019, 09:34:34 PM

[/quote]

A third option is the bags Eagle Music sell

https://www.eaglemusicshop.com/prod/squeezebox-gig-bags-hard-cases/mally-bag.htm

I have two of the "Mally" shoulder bags. They are ok, but if you're out and about a lot the Fuselli rucksacks are my preference.
[/quote]
Pete also sells small gig bag for cast lili size, it fits the poke work like a glove  ;) if you don't need extra room get one of his.
or you can get a record case (50LP) new from amazon or ebay good size with extra room 
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 10, 2019, 10:21:35 PM
I've asked Pete about getting one of his Fuselli bags, but not heard back. People here reviewed them so well that it would be good to give him business.

Anyway if I don't hear back, found another source of fuselli bags. Think fuselli is what I want, as keeping an ancient accordion going for another century ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 10, 2019, 10:27:33 PM
I've asked Pete about getting one of his Fuselli bags, but not heard back. People here reviewed them so well that it would be good to give him business.

Anyway if I don't hear back, found another source of fuselli bags. Think fuselli is what I want, as keeping an ancient accordion going for another century ...
Pete is normally very prompt and efficient in replying to enquiries. Perhaps your message got lost somehow.
You could try again perhaps?
e-mail: info@acorninstruments.co.uk
tel: 01347 811199
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 11, 2019, 09:04:21 AM
Pete is normally very prompt and efficient in replying to enquiries. Perhaps your message got lost somehow.
You could try again perhaps?
e-mail: info@acorninstruments.co.uk
tel: 01347 811199
Yes think thats the email address I used, I'll check when I get home. People have time away from the job, and guess thats what happened. Anyway if I don't hear from him in a few days, I'll PM him on here,
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 11, 2019, 09:18:17 AM
Pete is normally very prompt and efficient in replying to enquiries. Perhaps your message got lost somehow.
You could try again perhaps?
e-mail: info@acorninstruments.co.uk
tel: 01347 811199
Yes think thats the email address I used, I'll check when I get home. People have time away from the job, and guess thats what happened. Anyway if I don't hear from him in a few days, I'll PM him on here,
I was talking to Pete a short while ago. He says he replied to your enquiry the same day. Re-check your e-mails perhaps?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 11, 2019, 09:24:09 AM
I was talking to Pete a short while ago. He says he replied to your enquiry the same day. Re-check your e-mails perhaps?
Odd - I'll check when I get home. Was out most of yesterday evening (folk choir) so only checked emails quickly when I got home.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: invadm on July 11, 2019, 11:34:02 AM
I was talking to Pete a short while ago. He says he replied to your enquiry the same day. Re-check your e-mails perhaps?
Odd - I'll check when I get home. Was out most of yesterday evening (folk choir) so only checked emails quickly when I got home.
I am suppressed you didn't get the bag following day from Pete ,excellent service and fast delivery usually.
if any one after a stronger hard case this are good too ;
 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Popamazing-Record-Collection-Flight-Storage/dp/B075MY45HR/ref=sr_1_12?adgrpid=53552666299&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwLXpttSs4wIVCYbVCh2XXQQWEAAYASAAEgLL7vD_BwE&hvadid=259053120629&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9045990&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1311619319338428800&hvtargid=kwd-28607546&hydadcr=172_1786968&keywords=lp+case&qid=1562841009&s=gateway&sr=8-12     
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 11, 2019, 06:38:37 PM
I was talking to Pete a short while ago. He says he replied to your enquiry the same day. Re-check your e-mails perhaps?
Found the email, yes sent it at 9:29 this morning, and I left for work at about 7am, so have only just picked it up.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 12, 2019, 11:45:18 AM
I was talking to Pete a short while ago. He says he replied to your enquiry the same day. Re-check your e-mails perhaps?
Found the email, yes sent it at 9:29 this morning, and I left for work at about 7am, so have only just picked it up.
And order just placed with Pete, come across as an honest guy.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 12, 2019, 07:05:47 PM
Well, the quote unquote easiest method is probably using a spectrum analyser program on a smart phone or computer with a microphone, and checking if three fundamentals show up. But, principally yes you can also isolate the holes or otherwise interfere with the box to discover one way or the other.
OK - assuming I'd done the recording and sound analsys correctly:

Good G
G - G2 G3 D4
G+ - G3 B3 D4

Good D
D -  D2 D3 A3 D4
D+ - A3 D4 F#4

Bad G
G - G2 G3
G+ - B3 D4 G4

Bad D
D -  D2 D3
D+ - D4 F#4 A4

So good D chord is inverted
Bad G is doubly inverted

Are inversion like this normal ?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Gena Crisman on July 12, 2019, 07:55:11 PM
Chord inversions are pretty common, since the chord changes with the in and out, it can help reed responsiveness and performance to have the push and pull reeds that make up the chord be closer together in frequency. D4/A4 F#4/C#5 A4/E5 most likely wont perform as well or as evenly as D4/C#4 F#4/E4 A4/A4.

I wouldn't worry so much about the fundamental buttons - my guess is you're probably reporting bits of the harmonic series with G2 G3 D4.

But based on your results here, it seems like all the notes of the chord are 'present'. If you are confident that all the notes are present, you might still be well served by going back to your original plan, isolating each hole and thus reed, and checking they're not working incorrectly somehow.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Theo on July 12, 2019, 07:58:30 PM
That doesn’t make sense for example if I’m understanding you:

Good G
G - G2 G3 D4 this is the bass? Hohner basses only have two reeds so the D is just the harmonic of one of the G reeds.

G+ - G3 B3 D

The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.

The pull and push G chords on a Hohner GC are normally different inversions. 

Has the instrument recently been tuned?  If not then the “bad” chord may be out if tune.



Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: malcolmbebb on July 12, 2019, 09:10:59 PM
Well, the quote unquote easiest method is probably using a spectrum analyser program on a smart phone or computer with a microphone, and checking if three fundamentals show up. But, principally yes you can also isolate the holes or otherwise interfere with the box to discover one way or the other.
Tried with a pc spectrum analyser and I got a third frequency which was plausible but way off tune. Took a while to discover that it was an artifact. It was a while ago but I don't think it was an obvious sum or difference frequency. Took the box apart to find out what was going on... only two reeds.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 12, 2019, 09:18:23 PM
Hopefully tomorrow I'll do frequency responses on all bass keys, and see if I can take a snap shot of the frequencies - they were surprisingly clean.

Also see if I can get the power in each frequency, its not something I usually do. But as usual beyond the fundamental there are harmonics everywhere ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Gena Crisman on July 12, 2019, 09:50:50 PM
The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.

Well I mean, the purpose here was to identify if one of the chords simply wasn't complete. I know if I saw a spectrogram similar to one I've attached but most notes from the top row and one from the bottom, it would stand out, and I'd probably be saying 'I think one of the notes may be missing', without actually having to do anything like touch a screwdriver or pair of pliers, so, I personally found this 'easy'. Attached is G D C C D A B Em from the Oakwood 3v I'm playing, top with thirds on, bottom with thirds out, same zoom level (despite the y scale numbers being trash, they are indeed both the same zoom).

The usefulness of a spectrogram pretty much stops here, though.

Has the instrument recently been tuned?  If not then the “bad” chord may be out if tune.

Yeah, physical tests and checking the tuning while you're at it is the way to go here, I would think. However, I'd probably slide long strips of paper with tactically cut holes in under the bass pallets rather than open the box up as I don't have a tuning bench. There is something to be said for an actual visual inspection of the reeds, though.

edit - I should add, it's probably a good idea for David to pay close attention to the people who's vocation has at some point been 'fixing free reed instruments' instead of just 'know-it-all computer whizz', so, uh, I'd advise following Theo/Lester/Steve/et al's advice rather than go down a(n even deeper) spectrogram hole
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Lester on July 12, 2019, 09:58:08 PM
The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.


Unless you have Dirk's Accordion Tuner (like wot I do) it can detect the three reeds in a chords and up to 3 different bass octaves in the basses.


https://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php (https://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php)


If you are lucky the free trial version may work for the bits you are trying to listen to.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Winston Smith on July 12, 2019, 11:43:25 PM
That looks very useful, Mr Bailey. But quite possibly out of the price range of many home tuners.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 13, 2019, 12:26:38 AM
My favourite review:

"Comment:English
I am download Manual Accordion from your website, and read it in detail, even, I do not have any accordion. I think you are so awesome, because the current market is very few this kind of software. And you do it in great detail and professional. After reading this. I feel I already became a professional accordion tuner. thanks."
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 13, 2019, 10:40:41 AM
I wouldn't worry so much about the fundamental buttons - my guess is you're probably reporting bits of the harmonic series with G2 G3 D4.
That doesn’t make sense for example if I’m understanding you:

Good G
G - G2 G3 D4 this is the bass? Hohner basses only have two reeds so the D is just the harmonic of one of the G reeds.

G+ - G3 B3 D

The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.
Thanks both - yes I agree. At the risk of teaching grandmother to suck eggs (e.g. am sure Gena & Theo already know this), some more details on how things resonate.

Objects that resonate well (so reeds, strings, pipes, etc) usually resonate strong on one note, and do a series of harmonics on top, at twice, three times and so on the fundamental frequency. So if we look at these:

1x : The main note
2x : One Octave up
3x : Octave and a fifth
4x : Two octaves
5x : Two octaves and a somwhat flat major third (unless you are a piper ;) )

And me when I look at the Bass G note I have that:

1x : G2 -18dB
2x : G3 -21dB
3x : D4 -19dB
4x : G4 -25dB
5x : B4 -19dB
6x : D5 -26dB

So you can see all the harmonics appearing. Interesting that D4 is stronger than G3, when there is meant to be a reed on G3.

Anyway how with all these notes can you tell the note, and analysis. Crux is the harmonics are what is needed, its what gives the note its colour; pure tones are as boring as anything. You can see the difference in a singer using chest voice, vs head voice; in chest voice you excite all the resonances; head voice and killing as many resonances as possible. Each gives a different feel.

But how to study notes, crux is that the higher harmonics are quieter (lower dB) and also always an octave away (at least in instruments we see as making tones, so a drum will have resonances all over the spectrum ....)

So what the above really tells me is that I'm sure a G2 reed is firing. I actually can't tell if there is a G3 reed in there as well, Hohner construction says there should be, but the frequency analysis isn't conclusive.

When doing the same on the G+ G Major chord:

G3 -19dB
B3 -17dB
D4 -17dB

And then we go into a mass of notes over an octave away. But can see that in the octave above the bass note, that there is also a strong B and D; to play a standard G3 major triad.

I had actually meant all this in my note posting, I see all this without the words on the page, but its worth explaining  in detail.

I'll paste in the frequency plot that this came from below, its with me alternating between the G and G+ button; and you can see a piano keyboard and frequencies on the left axis.


Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 13, 2019, 11:23:52 AM
Chord inversions are pretty common, since the chord changes with the in and out, it can help reed responsiveness and performance to have the push and pull reeds that make up the chord be closer together in frequency. D4/A4 F#4/C#5 A4/E5 most likely wont perform as well or as evenly as D4/C#4 F#4/E4 A4/A4.
Now that is an insight! What you say makes sense, I just don't have a clue how to use it; other than try random chords, and see which one works best!
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 13, 2019, 09:05:17 PM
OK - have done all bass buttons now:

12 pull
D  - D2 -25dB
D+ - D4 -33dB F# -34dB A4 -40dB - standard D4 major chord - 2 octaves above bass

12 push
G  - G2 -26dB
G+ - B3 -25dB D4 -40dB G4 -41dB - first inversion of G major chord -- 2 octaves above bass

34 pull
G  - G2 -23dB
G+ - G3 -25dB B3 -18dB D4 -30Db - standard G major chord - 1 octave above bass

34 push
C  - C2 -24dB
C+ - G3 -25dB C4 -22dB E4 -33dB - second inversion of C major - 2 octaves above bass

56 pull
A  - A2 -20dB
A+ -  A3 -17dB C# -31dB E4 -19dB - A major - 1 octave above bass

56 push
E  -  E2 -22dB
E+ - G# -18dB B3 -17dB E4 -18dB - fist inversion of E - 2 octaves above bass

78 pull
F  -  F2 -18dB
F+ - A3 -26dB C4 -15dB F4 -30dB -  first inversion of F - 2 octaves above bass

78 push
D  - D2 -20dB
D+ - A3 -25dB D4 -21dB F# -20dB - second inversion of D - 2 octaves above bass

So dB don't tell us much. On all chords all reeds are working, but inversions are all over the shop - need to ponder how to use these.

So I was confused by the inversions.

As Gena said, push and pull are close in tones on chords - so that is how inversions have been done. Except on buttons 12 where a none obvious inversion has been done
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 16, 2019, 12:46:37 PM
So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+

So do the chords work best in songs of those keys?
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on July 16, 2019, 10:12:36 PM
So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+

So do the chords work best in songs of those keys?

I don't know the answer to that one...but somewhere early on in the thread you said that you were interested in playing English folk music. Keys of D & G with a relatively small number of tunes (unless you are from suffolk) in C would appear to cover all the basses. 
There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers (inverted commas because there is no such thing as a folk composer - tunes have to earn their stripes by surviving in the wild before they can be considered folk tunes-even though the makar may be kent to history) for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: playandteach on July 16, 2019, 10:37:11 PM
So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+
Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 16, 2019, 10:50:34 PM

There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers ... for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)

I suspect flat keys are popular because our ears are favourably impressed by something that sounds a bit different. In reality, for instance,  Bb isn't far removed from A, but suits some singing voices better.. From a melodeon point of view, all you need, to join in, is a box tuned in an appropriate key. Historically, I think a similar thing was going on. In Victorian times, people were playing in keys that corresponded to the instruments they played. I won't bother specifying. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 17, 2019, 09:55:49 AM
I don't know the answer to that one...but somewhere early on in the thread you said that you were interested in playing English folk music. Keys of D & G with a relatively small number of tunes (unless you are from suffolk) in C would appear to cover all the basses. 
There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers (inverted commas because there is no such thing as a folk composer - tunes have to earn their stripes by surviving in the wild before they can be considered folk tunes-even though the makar may be kent to history) for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)
Well so far I've been taking standard tunes, transposing into C and playing them, to get used to fingering in C. I'll move onto transposing them into G and D when comfortable. Hope to get comfortable enough in those to do some playing with the Pil people, but suspect until I'm comfortable in G and D, I'd probably mess them up. Where the paying goes, I just see how I progress.

I guess questions was mainly about my left hand, and the moment all its doing is working the bellows, but I've got 8 keys over there I should use at some stage. Now the access I have to chords is limited, so I can only see using them as a drone (like on a bag pipe) all be it though a drone that you can change, indeed have to change on push and pull.

Now on tunes which work should be able to do a drone that goes I-IV-V-I, and that will sound good, and give the key. But yes limited to the major keys said, but at least incding CD and G. [ So in a key of G; do the chord sequence G+ C+ D+ G+]; several other good sequences avaiable.

So yes really just trying to come up with doing something with those left hand buttons ...

Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.
OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 17, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
I suspect flat keys are popular because our ears are favourably impressed by something that sounds a bit different. In reality, for instance,  Bb isn't far removed from A, but suits some singing voices better.. From a melodeon point of view, all you need, to join in, is a box tuned in an appropriate key. Historically, I think a similar thing was going on. In Victorian times, people were playing in keys that corresponded to the instruments they played. I won't bother specifying. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Alex Patterson of Alden, Patterson, & Dashwood; said they did a song in the key of C# becuase the other band members didn't like him; and C# (aka Db) is almost impossible on the fiddle ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 17, 2019, 10:44:25 AM

Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.

OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.

I think P&T is talking about putting together versions of minor chords by combining the root note and the major chord 2 notes above, to give a version of the m7. e.g., play an E bass note with the chord of G major to get Em7.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 17, 2019, 10:53:31 AM

Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.

OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.

I think P&T is talking about putting together versions of minor chords by combining the root note and the major chord 2 notes above, to give a version of the m7. e.g., play an E bass note with the chord of G major to get Em7.
AH - yes that makes sense. So adding in the root note by hand.

So just check whats avaiable:

A+ F --> F major On reflection, two major thirds to give an augmented fifth - this is bad having just tried
E+ C --> C major On reflection, two major thirds to give an augmented fifth - this is bad having just tried
F+ D --> D minor - and this works when tried
G+ E --> E minor - this also works when tried

So only 2 minor chords available. So no real chord sequences ....

So think only minor chord sequence  is iv-v-iv-v etc on A minor
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 17, 2019, 11:49:43 AM

AH - yes that makes sense. So adding in the root note by hand.

You've got it.
It's a standard method for putting together minor chords on 4th apart boxes.
There are other possibilities using the same principle of button combinations.
Much discussed at various times. I think someone may have done a complete table of them.

I wouldn't get too worried about inversions, by the way. They are useful for varying the possibilities, but G with the basic triad notes isn't harmonically different to G in the first inversion. Very much interchangeable. I have a similar thing on my 12 Bass 2.4 row.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Stiamh on July 17, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers. What most people do is use masking tape to stop the third reeds from sounding.

Easy on some Italian boxes, where the thirds are in a straight line and you can run a length of tape under the reedblock to block off the reeds concerned, which are all in a line. On Hohners the layout is more complicated and you have to tape off individual reeds.

This gives you a full set of "power chords" - sounding I and V only, and these will do duty for both major and minor chords. Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience but that's a price I'm more than happy to pay. (Don't miss the grating ET third at all in fact!) On a semitone box, where you can easily play in several minor keys, I think not having your chords spayed makes no sense at all.

Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 17, 2019, 01:48:17 PM
OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers. What most people do is use masking tape to stop the third reeds from sounding.
Yes - sounds like a clever solution to playing minor keys. I'm slowly beginning to realise these button accordians are a bit of a compromise that you need to work arround. I can see there are some tunes where need to ignore the bass, and some where its ideal to miss a note out of the trebble side - maybe just leave a gap ...  (:)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 17, 2019, 02:59:56 PM

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords...This gives you a full set of "power chords" - sounding I and V only, and these will do duty for both major and minor chords. Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience

There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution. I have one box with the thirds taped off, one with a thirds stop and one with standard chords. The key phrase is "Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience"

I must confess to preferring the full chord experience and the m7 solution is great for me. Bear in mind that I play D/G and C/F boxes. I may not be looking for the same things as you. In particular, I am not in the business of playing in every key on one box.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Stiamh on July 18, 2019, 03:15:36 AM
There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: baz parkes on July 18, 2019, 09:32:49 AM
OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers.

Microbot of this parish did this very thing on my D/G Pressedwood...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 18, 2019, 11:12:56 AM
There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)

Very few, I'm sure. That's why I made sure I commented on what I play myself (I proclaim my ignorance of B/C and all semitone systems).  A lot of B/C players don't seem  to use basses much. However, the OP seems pretty keen.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Helena Handcart on July 18, 2019, 11:59:44 AM
There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)

There are also, I suspect, a substantial number who would agree with that solution amongst us lumpy D/G players too.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 18, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
Very few, I'm sure. That's why I made sure I commented on what I play myself (I proclaim my ignorance of B/C and all semitone systems).  A lot of B/C players don't seem  to use basses much. However, the OP seems pretty keen.
Well OP is a choral singer, who wished he knew more about music when he started out singing  ;)

His new toy, a BC button accordion, is treated mainly as a bit of fun. But if approached with some thought from the outset, can avoid some holes, and have some tricks to play. I'm always surprised how a bit of thought gives ways of avoiding pot holes.

After all how cool would it be, if after singing a song whilst playing along with the accordion using only right hand, if an instrumental verse was done, with the full chord experience. Now on a BC box, its clear that can only be done with thought from the outset - best done in a major key, one of A C D or G.

Today may move onto simple tunes in G; all so far have been in C.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Lester on July 18, 2019, 12:16:50 PM
There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)

There are also, I suspect, a substantial number who would agree with that solution amongst us lumpy D/G players too.
Exactly
All my fourth apart boxes are either no-thirds or have a thirds stop which is down for thirds out as thats how it is set 95% of the time.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 18, 2019, 12:21:08 PM
There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)

There are also, I suspect, a substantial number who would agree with that solution amongst us lumpy D/G players too.
Exactly
All my fourth apart boxes are either no-thirds or have a thirds stop which is down for thirds out as thats how it is set 95% of the time.

That's me back in my minority of one, then  ;D
I think my point, really, is that that is good to have a choice of options. It's worth getting to know "complete chord" solutions when they're available.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: tirpous on July 18, 2019, 03:26:19 PM
It doesn't need to be all black or all white.  If taping the thirds off, it's an option to remove only some of them and keep 3-note chords too.  I have a B/C that's set up like that.

Minority within a minority  (:)
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 18, 2019, 04:00:24 PM
It doesn't need to be all black or all white.  If taping the thirds off, it's an option to remove only some of them and keep 3-note chords too.  I have a B/C that's set up like that.

Minority within a minority  (:)

So, when you decide which to tape and which to leave, is that based on a pre-selection of which keys you want to play in?

On my pokerwork, I have the 3rd in my A chord taped off, but I, mostly, still play Am as C chord +A bass and I am thinking of untaping it.

I also have the 3rd in my B chord taped. I am wondering whether I should just commit to B minor being a more useful chord to me than B major (in contrast to A major, which is used a lot, playing in 2 sharp keys), take the tape off and flatten it to the minor 3rd (I know that there are some who seem to like the "crunch" they get from playing B major, but it's not a trick I use. It just sounds wrong, whether in one sharp, or two sharp keys).

I imagine that the further you get from 1 or 2 sharp playing, the more you benefit from taping thirds.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: tirpous on July 19, 2019, 01:39:24 AM
Quote
So, when you decide which to tape and which to leave, is that based on a pre-selection of which keys you want to play in?

Could be that, or you could remove any third that proves annoying/limiting in practice.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Squeaky Pete on July 19, 2019, 07:34:35 AM
A, B and E have no thirds on my pokerwork.
All taped out.
These days I try to double up the fifths.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: David Summers on July 21, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
So far, I've largely stayed quiet on the option of removing thirds from chords. On the one hand its a very inventive solution to playing in both Major and Minor Keys.

But what I find myself returning too, is the difference between Major and Minor keys, and songs written in each. Songs in a minor key, have a very different feel to in Major, and that is their joy - the difference. Now for all practical purposes, the important difference between Major and Minor, is the third (of the tonic) - is it major or minor; the tonic is the root of the song, but in the journey away from tonic, it goes via the third to give the major or minor feel. This is what happens in a simple tune.

Chords though bring in a third dimension, every chord is either minor or major (from the third from the root). Most songs in major or minor, tend to do long held notes, ends of lines, etc in a chord that reflects the major/minor - this can be done even in diatonic scales, with inversions as needed. What this means is that a chorded song can be tied to major/minor at almost any point in the song. Its always there, unlike a simple tune where its only on the passage via the third of the key that the major/minor comes out.

So where do I stand on removing the third from chords, well it must be a loss - to loose the major/minor, and just have the tonic and 3/2 harmonic (fifth). The depth of the chord has been removed, a chord without a triad is a lesser chord. But such chords can be used in both Major and Minor tunes - so flexability is gained.

I think I end up, in a position of understanding why some boxes have stops, and some huge great banks of bass/chord buttons, with every option possible. Which of course doesn't answer as to if chord should have the third removed - I don't think that question has an answer; or rather both answers have elements of being both right and wrong - neither answer is better than the other, they are just different answers ...
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Squeaky Pete on July 21, 2019, 02:09:22 PM
This is half the fun/problem/challenge of your chosen instrument. As a simple lightweight box, there are a lot of limitations that can be addressed by adding more weight and complexity.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Peadar on July 21, 2019, 08:51:08 PM
This is half the fun/problem/challenge of your chosen instrument. As a simple lightweight box, there are a lot of limitations that can be addressed by adding more weight and complexity.
Or you just live with the limitations. It's like choosing between scythe and strimmer to cut bracken on steeply sloping ground. There is a point at which it costs more effort to carry the extra weight of the strimmer up the hill than it does to swing the scythe when you get there.
Title: Re: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 21, 2019, 10:46:40 PM
So far, I've largely stayed quiet on the option of removing thirds from chords. On the one hand its a very inventive solution to playing in both Major and Minor Keys.

But what I find myself returning too, is the difference between Major and Minor keys, and songs written in each. Songs in a minor key, have a very different feel to in Major, and that is their joy - the difference. Now for all practical purposes, the important difference between Major and Minor, is the third (of the tonic) - is it major or minor; the tonic is the root of the song, but in the journey away from tonic, it goes via the third to give the major or minor feel. This is what happens in a simple tune.

Can't remember if it's already been mentioned, but the thirds stop is actually very effective because your ears fill in the missing thirds from the melody. My reservations about thirds removal are to do with the loss of richness in the basses. Thirds stops are a very effective way of providing harmonies without adding a lot of weight. So are Am7 when available.