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Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: Rog on September 08, 2019, 10:18:20 AM

Title: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 08, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
Anyone like to recommend what kind of card is suitable for making bellows. I want to experiment. I could order some from Charlie of course, but right now I just want to tinker with the process.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: rees on September 08, 2019, 11:18:20 AM
An old Italian bellows maker once told me that they use seasoned cardboard.
Perhaps you could find an old Cornflake packet from the 1950s on eBay.
 ;)
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: folkloristmark on September 08, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
Cornflake packets
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 08, 2019, 11:44:14 AM
I’m thinking cereal packets are a bit thin and not particularly robust (they tear easily). Maybe there isn’t a straight answer (I was expecting someone to say...grade x card). The card used to post books is pretty tough stuff. Maybe I’ll try that. Or something from the book binding trade. Maybe Nick CB will be along shortly to suggest something.... (:)
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on September 08, 2019, 11:45:44 AM
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2814.msg32404.html#msg32404

Here's an earlier thread
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Graham Spencer on September 08, 2019, 11:51:42 AM
If it's just for experimenting and discovering "how it goes",  I'd guess cereal(or similar) packet card would be as good as anything.  I'd think Nick would be the man to advise if you're looking for something a little closer to "proper" bellows card but less expensive.

Graham
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Theo on September 08, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Just use the proper stuff.  I’m all for experimenting and finding new ways when original materials are no longer available but why re-invent the wheel?
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 09, 2019, 02:29:45 PM
Yep. I've concluded t'same.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: hallelujahal on September 09, 2019, 09:27:36 PM
Mounting board from an art shop is what I use
Al
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Jon Stapleton on September 09, 2019, 10:18:12 PM

I believe the original stuff was cotton/rag based manilla   but I couldn't find a supplier of this (i assume the demise of the rag n bone man is the reason).
I used the "grey" board a while back for a preciosa because i couldn't find the right card,  it lasted for a couple of years but the bellows did go a bit "floppy". I also used very heavy watercolour paper for another set and this has lasted better but again it still isn't really quite the ticket and is a bit stiff to start with.
Old Hohner originals were about 800 microns. if you find a source of the correct card  please do share!!

Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Theo on September 09, 2019, 10:24:50 PM
Charlie Marshall sells it
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 10, 2019, 07:02:18 AM
I'd think Nick would be the man to advise if you're looking for something a little closer to "proper" bellows card but less expensive.

Graham

Thanks for the confidence Graham. Yes, Manila at about 200 to 300 gsm (Grams per Square Meter ) would be suitable, about the same as a Cornflake box. BUT, I seriously doubt the Ph of that ( cereal box) stuff I think it might be acidic and therefore rot fairly quickly.
  I’m sure no one would want to spend all that time making Bellows and then see them disintegrate in two or three years!!!
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Peadar on September 11, 2019, 10:23:04 PM
Is manilla not based on a type of south american reed rather than wood chip or rag pulp?
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Pete Dunk on September 12, 2019, 07:51:01 AM
Please note that 'manila' (the original, old fashioned type paper made from Manila hemp) and 'manilla' (vastly inferior modern wood pulp paper/card) are two very different materials!
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Jon Stapleton on September 12, 2019, 01:12:18 PM
Ahh i didn't know that!  Manila then from hemp!  When you think about it i regularly play a 90 year old set of bellows,  it beggars belief that a bit of card can put up with that kind of abuse for such a long time.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: invadm on September 25, 2019, 02:39:38 PM
Ahh i didn't know that!  Manila then from hemp!  When you think about it i regularly play a 90 year old set of bellows,  it beggars belief that a bit of card can put up with that kind of abuse for such a long time.
if I'm not mistaken manilla cards still in use in fashion trade,I used to buy roles of different colours when I was working as manual pattern maker/cutter for clothing manufacturers many moons ago,first master pattern always drafted on a card..now days we use CAD CAM no more card or papers.I am sure you can find manilla card from 80 to 300 gr..guessing 240 + will be thick enough for bellows..only problem they come in 90cm wide and 90mt long roles.
here is a shop sells manilla pattern card, you might find more places who offers better price.
 
https://www.morplan.com/shop/en/morplan/pattern-manilla-cards   
   
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 26, 2019, 07:55:09 AM
Ahh i didn't know that!  Manila then from hemp!  When you think about it i regularly play a 90 year old set of bellows,  it beggars belief that a bit of card can put up with that kind of abuse for such a long time.
if I'm not mistaken manilla cards still in use in fashion trade,I used to buy roles of different colours when I was working as manual pattern maker/cutter for clothing manufacturers many moons ago,first master pattern always drafted on a card..now days we use CAD CAM no more card or papers.I am sure you can find manilla card from 80 to 300 gr..guessing 240 + will be thick enough for bellows..only problem they come in 90cm wide and 90mt long roles.
here is a shop sells manilla pattern card, you might find more places who offers better price.
 
https://www.morplan.com/shop/en/morplan/pattern-manilla-cards   
   

Hmmm, it’s not the stuff we would use. When the site says “recycled materials” you think ah! What’s in it? Can the firm tell you it’s Ph ?
  We buy it in A1 sheets. If your just making one set of Bellows you certainly wouldn’t want yards and yards of it. Also, because it’s on a roll, the curl would be a problem.
   Anyway, as Theo says, Charlie Marshall sells it.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 26, 2019, 07:58:46 AM
Nick, where do you get your A1 sheets?
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 26, 2019, 08:35:08 AM
I’ll have to check with my firm Rog. I’ll get back to you, the snag is you would have to buy a minimum of 500 sheets.
 Probably best to do an internet search crafts etc. Archival stuff is the answer.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 26, 2019, 08:55:53 AM
Ok thanks. When I get around to it, I’ll just get the proper stuff  (:)
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: malcolmbebb on September 26, 2019, 09:02:41 AM
Not in a position to check at the moment, but what would be the fold depth of say a Liliput or other small box? Charlie’s minimum is 2.7mm.
It’s not cheap, and I imagine could be quite wasteful to just tinker with or to make custom bellows for a small box.
On the other hand I have had a go at bending card and it’s not easy to get a presentable and consistent finish. My conclusion was that if I wanted a custom bellows for a small box, and wanted to make it myself, I would consider concertina style construction.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 26, 2019, 09:26:04 AM
I costed the materials for a pair or bellows and it came out at about £60, including leather diamonds, corners, tape, covering etc. In the interests of wanting to learn how to do it (And notwithstanding Nick's warning) I plan to try it someday. Probably to replace some Lilliput bellows.
You can order them from Italy to be custom made. I think Theo offers this service (you need to ask him). When Igor was still making bellows I got some made about 3 yrs ago for a Lilliput for about €120!  The fold depth was a bit of an issue (Igor had two) but in the end it worked out without fouling the valves inside. I think now in 2019 it would cost at least double that. But then again, a Liliput with new bellows is a desirable thing  (:)
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 26, 2019, 09:49:17 AM
You’re right Malcolm. The best way to bend cardboard is with a straightedge and bone folder scoring parallel lines and not cutting into the material. BUT, you must get the grain direction right. It must run in line with the fold. All paper has a grain direction. This is much easier to demonstrate than to describe. Take for example a sheet of A4 paper, it has a long edge and a short edge. Bend the paper gently in one direction and then the other. It will curve much easier in one direction than the other. If it’s  easier on the short edge then that is long grain, and the other short grain. Imagine a piece of landscape corrugated cardboard. If the grooves  run top to bottom long grain , from side to side, short.
Confused? You will be. It’s vital to determine the grain for the folds.
  I’m pretty sure there’s something on YouTube , look for paper grain direction. I did one some years ago but it seems to have disappeared .
  Best of luck
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Rog on September 27, 2019, 08:59:30 PM
Wow..who’d a thunk it...paper grain.
Title: Re: Cardboard for bellows
Post by: Pete Dunk on October 28, 2019, 10:55:27 PM
When the bellows are made and the time comes to glue them to the frames it is advisable to pop a little weight on top to hold everything together until the glue goes off.
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