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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: John Luffrum on November 18, 2019, 01:09:01 AM

Title: Buying Advice
Post by: John Luffrum on November 18, 2019, 01:09:01 AM
OK, so after many years as a guitar player I finally retired and decided to fulfil a long-held ambition to learn the melodeon, now I had the time for it. So to test the water and see if I would enjoy it as much as I expected I bought a second hand Stephanelli D/G 21/8 button for a couple of hundred quid. Did I enjoy it? I loved it. Can't put it down. I've got some expensive guitars gathering dust

Wondering now, a year on, if it's time to invest in another (different/better?) instrument. I find myself playing mainly English dance and Morris music... so another D/G is an obvious choice - but can I seek the advice of you guys... the obvious thing I realise from reading these forums is to wait for a decent Hohner Poker Work to come up... but are there better alternatives? If I saved my pennies (and sold a guitar!), is it worth waiting for something like a Castagnari Lilly? Or are there better options? Or am I just paying for (beautiful) looks?

I realise there is no "right" answer, but would be grateful for the wisdom of your experience... I'm open to all suggestions (including sticking with the Stephanelli if that's a decent option - after all, I can coax a halfway decent tune out of it)

TIA

John
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 18, 2019, 02:24:34 AM
Better really is very subjective. A few times, I read about an instrument and had been convinced "Ah yes, this will be the box that I want!", then, I find the opportunity to try one out and it just disagreed with me entirely.

Do you swim in morris circles? You could look to make friends with other box players and often there will be an opportunity to politely ask if you might play their instruments - people will often thrust their melodeon into your hands if you chat them up a bit. I found these experiences incredibly informative. Many trips to musical instrument stores also helped me.

If you enjoy playing the box you have, you don't really need to buy a new one in any kind of rush, and often people select an instrument based on, if not their budget, then the features it either has or doesn't have. If you're not sure what features you might want in a melodeon, well, the Stephanelli instruments certainly are usually of a lower quality, but, within their ranks you'll find that there are ones that are more playable than other examples. Identifying any problems/weak areas with your current instrument and looking to find another instrument that you also enjoy playing, but which solves those problems, could be a good way to look for a replacement.

An example of a weak area for my starter box was that the air button was very heavy - I only really noticed for the first time by playing another melodeon with a much lighter air button. Another example is I found it hard to play tunes that crept from the lower half to the upper half of the keyboard because the upper reeds were much less responsive and at the time I struggled to deal with that. An example I've experienced with some instruments I've tried is that the bellows very much wanted to compress themselves and they were fighting you every time you wanted to open them. These would be very obvious to me now, but weren't obvious to me at all when I started out.

You need to decide if what you'd be buying is better for you, and really the only way to know that is by exploring. You certainly won't just be paying for looks, but, you may be paying for things that you can't notice or don't matter to you, or, may actually be paying for things you don't like.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Matthew B on November 18, 2019, 02:33:12 AM
John, if you let folks know where you are based you may be able to track down some players locally who will let you tinker around with various other boxes.  Different makers, models, layouts, tunings and so all influence your options and change the experience of playing.  It's much easier to make informed choices if you can find some friendly melodionists who will help you explore what's out there.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: AirTime on November 18, 2019, 04:28:05 AM
I think there are a couple of main aspect to your question:

1) How the instrument plays.

2) How the instrument sounds.

Concerning no. 1 - in general, a higher quality box, like the inevitable Castagnari, will play "better", which is to say smoother/easier. However, a cheaper box, like the inevitable Pokerwork, can also play very well if well set-up.

Concerning no. 2 - very type of box sounds different ... & the same box can sound very different depending on how it's tuned. The kind of sound you like & the related question of the kind of music you want to play may determine what kind of box to look for.  I'm not sure I would recommend a Lilly BTW - a lovely box, but not sure I would choose it as my only box as it has a very particular sound & is small & a bit fiddly to play when you're learning.

Like many other people on Melnet, I have a variety of boxes in different tunings. I like to switch between them & enjoy the variation in sound.  It's a bit like the sound of different guitars ... but more so!  ;)
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Tiposx on November 18, 2019, 08:18:40 AM
As already said - you would enjoy trying out some other instruments. I haven't played a Stephanelli, but have tried a few other instruments. My favourites are my old Pokerwork with italian reeds and very soft treble springs, and my Lily. Both are light and fast to play, both sound good but are very different.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: John Luffrum on November 18, 2019, 09:00:06 AM
Gena, Mathew, AirTime and Tipsox - thank you so much for the considered and helpful responses.

It's clear I need to try to play some different boxes - I'm a bit isolated in rural Cumbria, so don't really have the kind of access that would be ideal - there is an accordion and fiddle club in Carlisle that I can get to infrequently... I need to get out more ;)

Thanks again for your help - as Gina suggests perhaps I'll stick with the Stephanelli for a bit until I can find out what, if any, are the shortcomings of the one I have - remembering that learning to play the guitar many years ago on a cheap model that resembled a cheesecutter meant playing anything after that was a breeze and a pleasure!

Cheers
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Julian S on November 18, 2019, 09:22:28 AM
Just one other suggestion - you could go to one of the excellent melodeon weekends - such as the Wensleydale event...24-26 April next year.
Not too far away from Cumbria. Wonderful learning experience, great trade stall(s), and lots of different instruments brought by fellow addicts who commonly are happy to discuss pros and cons of various instruments, offer lots of advice, and let you hear (and quite likely) try theirs.

Julian
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: The Oul' Boy on November 18, 2019, 09:29:19 AM
Good thread John. I'm in the same position, coming up on a year in and although I love my Pokerwork, at some point I think I'd like to invest (assuming I can ever afford it) in something fancier, though what I don't know. Something not too heavy, smooth to play, dry in sound, with extra low notes as well as accidentals, no clacking, able to hold its own outside or in a crowd, etc.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Lester on November 18, 2019, 09:39:37 AM
Something not too heavy, smooth to play, dry in sound, with extra low notes as well as accidentals, no clacking, able to hold its own outside or in a crowd, etc.
Oh! a well fettled 4th button start Pokerwork then  ;)
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: The Oul' Boy on November 18, 2019, 09:43:26 AM
Oh! a well fettled 4th button start Pokerwork then  ;)

Ha ha, that might be the interim answer actually! Theo fettled it pretty well to begin with (including stopping the treble buttons going in too far), but I must get on to him about the price of declacking the bass end and converting to a 4th button start. I need better straps too.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Theo on November 18, 2019, 10:07:39 AM

It's clear I need to try to play some different boxes - I'm a bit isolated in rural Cumbria, so don't really have the kind of access that would be ideal - there is an accordion and fiddle club in Carlisle that I can get to infrequently... I need to get out more ;)


Just one other suggestion - you could go to one of the excellent melodeon weekends - such as the Wensleydale event...24-26 April next year.


There will also be traders there, including myself, who will have instruments for sale that you can try.   If you ever get over to Tyneside you are welcome to call in and try whatever boxes I have in stock (https://theboxplace.co.uk/product-category/melodeons/).  No obligation to buy.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 18, 2019, 10:35:26 AM
Good morning John, welcome to the forum!

My advice is to keep trying different boxes and at some point you will pick up something and not want to put it down.
I had the distinct advantage of being less than an hour away
You have the advantage now of being able to play some tunes, know what you like to play, musically, and have already developed a feel for the melodeon. Your intuition will kick in when something really feels right for you.
Just try and get out there to folk clubs, sessions, watching Morris etc. and at an opportune moment talk to players and beg a squeeze. Most people are only too happy to let you try their pride and joy!

A seminal moment for me was to take a trip into the next county and spend a morning with a fellow melnetter who kindly showed me around her ~ 10 boxes.
Some were lovely but the button spacing felt wrong , others I could have driven away with. After learning for about 18months I was now able to play and had more of a feel for the box. It showed me there were other melodeons out there and if I wanted to change, what direction to head in.
Try as many as you can!
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: PukkaJ on November 18, 2019, 12:24:36 PM
Hi John,

like you I'm a retired guitar player that rekindled his love for music discovering the melodeon.
I started of with a used Castagnari Studio CF that needed much work, so I traded it for a used Serenellini Selli GC.

After a while I decided I wanted something less wet and splurged for a new Serenellini Gold GC. Meanwhile I found a Saltarelle Bouebe CF that I recently traded for a Castagnari Lilly CF.

So there it is: a Serenellini Rolls Royce and a nice light Lilly for playful fun. I'm extremely happy with the two very different boxes I've got now, especially because they make me play different styles on each: the Serenellini is great for cross rowing lyrical tunes, while the lilly, with its smaller bellows, prefers single row playing and sounds great for more 'bouncy' morris like tunes.

Had I decided on them immediately I would have saved quite a bit of money, but then again I apparently needed the route to these two to learn what I wanted in the first place.

Sometimes a box sounds nice in the shop, but less so at home. Sometimes even the other way round. Sometimes a box sounds nice at first, but you grow weary of its sound after playing it a while.
Weight can be an issue too. Some boxes dictate a particular style of playing (see my comment on my Lilly).
My advice would be to try as many as you possibly can and (with shops) try to negotiate a return policy (within reason) in case it doesn't work out as intended.
I'm quite sure other melodeon players are willing to let you play their boxes too.

Question though: what is it you hope to improve on regarding your current box?

Good luck and have fun!
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: John Luffrum on November 18, 2019, 06:16:33 PM
Thank you to everyone who have chipped in with thoughts - much appreciated, it's clear I really need to try as many boxes as I can Actually, that's exactly the advice I would give to a newbie guitar player too...

Good point made by PukkaJ - what is it that I'm hoping to improve on? Well, the answer is, as you are all saying, I don't really know... because I haven't played anything else! So why am I looking for something different? Well, I know that my Stephanelli is very much an entry box, right at the bottom of the price range (bought with eyes open in case I didn't take to it) - and I know that the difference in feel, playability and sound between an entry level guitar and, say, a Martin, is considerable: so I guess I feel I must be missing something - without knowing what it is! I waited a long time for a 'decent' guitar... but now in my 60s I don't have the luxury of waiting a long time ;) But unlike as a young man I DO now have the luxury of indulging myself (within reason of course!) with a "better" instrument - if I can decide what that is.

Does that make sense? If anything I think it reinforces the very good advice being given to try to play some more boxes - I WILL try to get out more... and the suggestion of a melodeon weekend is an excellent one - and thank you to Theo for the kind offer if I can get over to Tyneside

Thanks to all for your welcome and patient advice
John
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Theo on November 18, 2019, 06:27:21 PM
What you get with a better box: different sound has already been mentioned.  What the most basic boxes tend to lack is responsive reeds.  This results in a box that needs more effort to play, and can give the impression that the bellows are stiff, because you can feel the extra effort you need to get the notes to sound.  Responsive reeds will speak at lower bellows pressure, and will start to speak more quickly, so you can play shorter notes, and therefore faster passages become easier to play crisply.  This is particularly noticeable where there is a bellows change in the middle of a faster passage.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: playandteach on November 18, 2019, 06:34:08 PM
And if you ever find yourself in Hexham - not so far from Carlisle - you can try my older Castagnari Sander, which is a very light swing tuned, lightly sprung box (sorted out by Theo). It's a 3 voice, which you may not need, but I think it's a really good box for a lot less than a modern equivalent. It does however have an unusual right hand layout on the inside row, but you're welcome to give it a go for feel. I often look at fancy boxes from abroad, but the risk of buying untried is pretty big. It's all so personal.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 18, 2019, 07:05:52 PM
I agree with most of what has already been suggested but would make the point that a more expensive box does not  make a better player.  12 months in is very early to be considering  a costalloti  and the stephanellis I have tried have all been  ok.

The lilly is a great box but being single reed is not an all rounder .I have one and like it very much  but only as an addition to my other boxes  .

The rate of 'improvement'  in boxes diminishes as they get dearer. eg there is a big difference between ,say, a stephanelli and a refurbished hohner pokerwork but much less between  ,say, a serrenelini and a castagnari.   ( My most used box over the last 25 years  is a 3 voice serenellini and hopefully it will remain so for the rest of my playing days)

One , or even the main reason I like my serenellini is because I reallylike the way it is tuned i.e. the sound it makes.  I athink that is arguably the single most important factor in choosing a box  as you are unlikely to 'grow into' liking the sound of a box you were initially not ENTHUSIAST about.

I possible visit one of the big dealers eg hobgoblin  and try several new and used  - also  dealers have stalls at  some folk festivals   i.e try before you buy!

Havaing said all that  a  refurbished hohner from Theo, Lester and other specialists  takes a lot of beating!

george
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 18, 2019, 11:10:43 PM
George makes some telling points there: Diminishing returns is the obvious one but the other one: Fettling makes such an enormous difference.

There is a lot of future in making a box you have into the box you yearn for.

The important thing is to know what you want from your next step.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: playandteach on November 18, 2019, 11:35:09 PM
All true, but there are some things you can't polish. Whoever it was above who said that you should keep trying boxes until you find one  you can't put down has the same approach as me. Unfortunately, I've found two boxes I wanted, neither of which I could afford. That's ok. I'll keep looking.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 19, 2019, 09:14:32 AM
The lesson I learnt when visiting a fellow melnetter was that all boxes feel different, and that is true of more expensive boxes as it is of cheaper quality ones. No matter how good it looks and sounds, if your fingers can't get to the buttons then its not for you. I have small hands so am acutely aware of button spacing which can vary between makers.
Once over the physicality of the box you then get into the personal likes and dislikes of how it sounds. A very personal choice with no right or wrong.
As said keep on trying and one day you'll find one you don't want to let go!
Q
 
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: John Luffrum on November 19, 2019, 09:22:50 AM
Thanks everyone again for the continuing thoughtful advice

George has made me pause and wonder if I'm really ready for a "better" box after only a year - perhaps I should learn to play the one I've got first!

But Theo's comment about the responsiveness of reeds rang a bell in terms of "what am I looking for". As I do (I think) improve and look to play a little faster and add grace and incidental notes, it is the speed of response I'm struggling with... now, should I keep practicing to improve my technique, or am I battling with a box that just won't respond any faster? Would I find it easier (and perhaps more satisfying) to play a more responsive box. Or is that taking a shortcut that I will regret later?

We talk about the impatience of youth... what about the impatience of age as you realise you don't have another 50 years in which to hone your skills?!!!!!

Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 19, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
...am I battling with a box that just won't respond any faster? Would I find it easier (and perhaps more satisfying) to play a more responsive box. Or is that taking a shortcut that I will regret later?

A good Hohner is a good box. Just as responsive as Italian boxes and a lot, lot cheaper. They do sound different, though. Some of us like that sound.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Theo on November 19, 2019, 10:57:42 AM
...am I battling with a box that just won't respond any faster? Would I find it easier (and perhaps more satisfying) to play a more responsive box. Or is that taking a shortcut that I will regret later?

You can best answer that by trying other boxes. Weight and bulk also comes into it and the extra weight of a bigger box can to some extent cancel out the benefit of more responsive reeds. 

Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 19, 2019, 12:00:28 PM
just a general thought/observation about the ''responsiveness'' of boxes.   Both the quality of reeds and how they are set up have a direct effect on 'responsiveness'  but also the way the box is handled  can also greatly effect responsiveness particularly when playing a tune 'on the row' that involves a lot of swift ins and outs of the bellows.   The further out the bellows are extended the less responsive the box is to changes of bellows direction as the bellows try to wriggle sideways as well as going in and out. Keeping the bellows always as near closed as possible ( according of course to the basic needs of the tune)  can greatly increase ''responiveness'' as can tapping the bass very lightly which reduces the distance of an in/out manoeuvre.  Also attaching the box firmly to ones person can help as it prevents part of the bellows movement being wasted shoving the body of the box one way or t'other  before actually producing a note!

The duke of perth (broons reel) is a good example of a tune requiring responsiveness  and I  bring the bellows down to about 6 inches open for the fast in and outing

george
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: richard.fleming on November 19, 2019, 05:54:54 PM
Look at boxes, listen to them,  try them out. By the time you are really ready for a better box you'll know yourself and won't need to ask.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Steve C. on November 19, 2019, 06:28:16 PM
John, old fellow, I hate to tell you this, but unless one started playing 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, and is talented, you (like me) will "never" sound like the melodeon greats one one hears on melodeon net.  'Tis sad but true.  :'(
Does not matter what box one buys.  How much it costs.  How responsive the reeds are. etc. etc.  I get a Handry and still will not sound like Ricardo Tesi.  Ever.
That said ( :Ph ) if you like the sound of Pokerwork/Ericas, get one. Get a nice fettling job on it.  If you like Castagnari LMM or whatever, and can afford, get one.  Hell, if you love the looks of Gabanelli's, get one (to each his own).  Who doesn't love a D Castagnari Melodeon LMMH?  Get one of those too.
But ya gotta learn to play.
IMO.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: playandteach on November 19, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
No matter how good it looks and sounds, if your fingers can't get to the buttons then its not for you. I have small hands so am acutely aware of button spacing which can vary between makers.
That's interesting, I also have small hands, but have never noticed an issue on any box - flat or stepped keyboard all feel fine (although I do need lightly sprung buttons). Just goes to show that we all have different requirements - I've noticed when you look at tripadvisor for reviews, most people think something is lovely, but one or two say it's the worst experience they've ever had.
When I was a clarinet player, I ended up travelling directly to the factories in Paris to choose instruments and mouthpieces. I know that VanDoren also started putting a stamp on mouthpieces to show which of the workers finished the mouthpieces - such a personal thing it is. They also experimented with requests for specific reed machines so you could order boxes of reeds made only on machine 7 etc. Both ideas floundered I think, because they ended up with a discard pile.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 19, 2019, 08:07:39 PM
P&T: There's a further point to my comment.
I was trying a friend's Loffet Gret e Breiz and though it was a lovely thing my left hand simply couldn't accommodate using the air button and get to the basses.
I could not reach.
A couple of years back, DTN of the parish came and stayed for a band gig, and his entourage of boxes were in the house overnight. He started playing his latest acquisition, a Loffet Gret e Breiz in AD. It sounded so good I decided to give it a go, but was dubious after my first encounter. It was *just lovely*, sounded wonderful and fitted me like a glove. I didn't want to put it down.
As hard as I tried, he managed to work out where I'd hidden it so it went home with him... ;)
I've no idea why the earlier one was so different, maybe in the intervening years they'd changed their button spacing.... I cannot explain it.
One fitted, one didn't.
Hence - trying is important!
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: John Luffrum on November 21, 2019, 12:01:44 AM
OK, message received loud and clear: go and try stuff. Buy what I love and can afford (and I know an expensive box won’t make me a great player - applies to guitars too!) Thanks to all for your patience and good natured thoughts :)
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: xgx on November 21, 2019, 09:56:54 AM
(...)
George has made me pause and wonder if I'm really ready for a "better" box after only a year - perhaps I should learn to play the one I've got first!

are you familiar with M A D ?

(...)should I keep practicing to improve my technique?
You already know the answer :)   Keep playing the tunes you like, the rest will follow ...as long as you're enjoying it (!)


We talk about the impatience of youth... what about the impatience of age as you realise you don't have another 50 years in which to hone your skills?!!!!!

see the last comment above ...it's all about enjoying the whole experience ;)
 

Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: richard.fleming on November 21, 2019, 10:04:19 AM
Really don't get the finger spacing stuff. Never seen a box where the button spacing was more than fingers spacing. Anyway you move your fingers around, don't you? It's not like a big whistle where the  need to stretch to cover the holes is because several of the holes need to be covered at the same time.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 21, 2019, 10:51:37 AM
I think the comment applies to left hand. I have a friend with small hands who cannot reach all the basses if her hand is correctly positioned for the air button, and that's on a Pokerwork.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 21, 2019, 10:57:01 AM
(...)
George has made me pause and wonder if I'm really ready for a "better" box after only a year - perhaps I should learn to play the one I've got first!

are you familiar with M A D ?

(...)should I keep practicing to improve my technique?
You already know the answer :)   Keep playing the tunes you like, the rest will follow ...as long as you're enjoying it (!)


Indeed - there is absolutely no point in playing or learning to play any instrument if you don't thoroughly enjoy so doing  and that included 'enjoying'  tussling with the bits you find difficult.

george :||: :|||: :|glug :|glug :|glug :|glug


We talk about the impatience of youth... what about the impatience of age as you realise you don't have another 50 years in which to hone your skills?!!!!!

see the last comment above ...it's all about enjoying the whole experience ;)
 
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 21, 2019, 10:59:42 AM
Yes I was referring to my left hand on a particular box and my inability to cover the air button and get to all the basses comfortably. The next time I tried the same make and model, the spacing was resolved and the incident I've put down to an odd quirk.
Thank you Malcolm, glad to know it's not just me with small hands!
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Julian S on November 21, 2019, 11:45:44 AM
I have always preferred to have the 8 basses I use most on my 12 bass boxes nearest to the air button - to reduce the stretch and also because I can only use three fingers (my bent little fingers are ideal for the An Dro dance but the left isn't much use otherwise !)
As I get to grips with my 14 bass Pariselle (lovely sound), the bass layout is providing a particular challenge. I suspect changing it round could be problematic and I'll probably get used to it in time. And it does take a while to get to know an instrument and recognise the possible flaws as well as the positives- which is the problem with most buying decisions.
 Having gone back to using a Pokerwork for the Morris, I am gradually building up the scar tissue again on my left wrist from the sharp edge - even though I use a leather wrist protector. At least the scars don't get blacking in them now !

J
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 21, 2019, 12:09:47 PM
Going back to my problem with the Gret e Breiz, there is a further complication on the left hand that compounded by inability to stretch.
The original box where I had a problem, had an unusual air button. It was a sort of rocker.  I cannot exactly remember as it was some time back, but the button was a curved one, not a straight line Italian style lever or Hohner button so thumb placement had to be precise. That was why I struggled.

I appreciate 12 or 14 basses pose a change of style and I imagine movement across them is totally different again.
Something I have no real experience of!
Good luck Julian, that Pariselle is worth the effort!
Q
 
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Jesse Smith on November 21, 2019, 02:00:53 PM
Really don't get the finger spacing stuff. Never seen a box where the button spacing was more than fingers spacing. Anyway you move your fingers around, don't you? It's not like a big whistle where the  need to stretch to cover the holes is because several of the holes need to be covered at the same time.

Maybe if you're trying to play a lot of right hand chord stuff, like the way Tony Hall plays a high harmony with his pinky while the lower fingers are playing the melody or the rest of the chord. I can imagine someone with smaller hands playing a box with wider button spacing would have a more difficult time.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 21, 2019, 04:17:53 PM
Or....
If like me you use the chin end accidentals frequently and have a 4th button start 2 row  DG, there gets to be a point when turning your wrist to reach them with your first finger won't work.
You then need to jump between the treble button up to the accidental. That's fine, unless you miss!
Still, practice makes perfect....
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 21, 2019, 05:27:24 PM
I always use my thumb for the chin end accidentals for the simple reason that the thumb joint articulates sideways much better than finger joints.   It takes a bit of getting used to initialy but is well worth the effort as it leaves 4 fingers to get on with playing the tune and/ or adding right hand chords whilst also playing the melody.

However to make full use of the thumb it is absolutely essential that the box is firmly attached to the player so the thumb is not in any way responsible for steadying or locating; the keyboard relative to the person.   Which is why I always use  2  reasonably  wide padded straps on all my boxes.

george
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: richard.fleming on November 21, 2019, 05:38:07 PM
You then need to jump between the treble button up to the accidental.

That's what you get with a DG, isn't it? So glad I wasn't lured into the DG trap. Best thing I never did.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 21, 2019, 05:39:34 PM
Wot George says.
Use your thumb. Strange at first, but you soon get used to it.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 21, 2019, 05:40:36 PM
You then need to jump between the treble button up to the accidental.

That's what you get with a DG, isn't it? So glad I wasn't lured into the DG trap. Best thing I never did.

How the other half lives  ;D
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: The Oul' Boy on November 21, 2019, 05:50:04 PM
I always use my thumb for the chin end accidentals for the simple reason that the thumb joint articulates sideways much better than finger joints.   It takes a bit of getting used to initialy but is well worth the effort as it leaves 4 fingers to get on with playing the tune and/ or adding right hand chords whilst also playing the melody.

However to make full use of the thumb it is absolutely essential that the box is firmly attached to the player so the thumb is not in any way responsible for steadying or locating; the keyboard relative to the person.   Which is why I always use  2  reasonably  wide padded straps on all my boxes.

How does this work for those of us who don't put our thumbs on the edge of the treble board (something I've tried a lot and just can't get used to), but behind it (in a version of the morris grip)?
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 21, 2019, 05:59:12 PM
I knew you'd say that George!
I have tried using my thumb but I  destabilise the box as my thumb anchors it and I use it as a reference point.
I have become quite proficient at using the chin end ones 'my way '

I don't think I could use the chin end accidentals using the Morris Grip, but I know some do!
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Peadar on November 21, 2019, 09:09:57 PM
You then need to jump between the treble button up to the accidental.

That's what you get with a DG, isn't it? So glad I wasn't lured into the DG trap. Best thing I never did.
That's a little harsh....I would see it as not being lured into the 4th button start trap.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Theo on November 21, 2019, 09:13:04 PM
I think the point that Richard is making is that a semitone system is more logical (in the context of diatonic boxes) and it is chromatic so no need for big stretches like you may have to make for chin end accidentals on a 4th apart system.  I don’t think you can really argue with that.
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 21, 2019, 09:40:14 PM
that is indeed true .  The 2 row the semitone and 4th apart boxes  both have advantages and limitations which is probably why I play both systems.  The  2 row semitone boxes are chromatic and the accidentals fall readily to hand  but some keys are not particularly easy. The downside is a shortage of usable bass capable of driving a strong rhythm  and  less scope for right hand chords unless playing in the two home keys.  On the other hand the semitone boxes  have lots of scope for right hand chords both on and across the rows  and bass to drive a good strong rhtymn in the home keys.

The 3 row semitone boxes  with stradella bass get round most of the problems with the price of a larger heavier box.  The 3 row 4th apart boxes  chuck in an extra home key with bass to match  and are generally more versatile than the 2 row jobs, but again at the penalty of increased weight and bulk)

Some people  seem to torture themselves trying to get a simple 'folk' box to do things the makers never intended  but of course this can be fun in itself.  However those who want a box capable of meeting their every need(ish)   either have to indulge in the art of faking here and there  or go for  a large continental or piano box
which again is why I havae boxes (all 'diatonic') ranging from 8 to 96 bass and from one to three rows. All good fun!?

george
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 22, 2019, 10:35:55 AM
Yes, everything with a basic 2 row is a compromise.
My compromise is that I have toyed with the idea of a 2.5 row/12 bass box which brings the accidentals nearer the fingers and allows for playing in  more keys.
But.... I don't play many tunes outside of the 2 row DG range, so have adapted my style to making them fit in terms of keys and using the chin end accidentals where necessary.
Even with small hands I can use the accidentals with a 4th button start. I have become used to a stretch, it is entirely possible.

It all comes down to what music you wish to play, and how best to accommodate it on a box.
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 22, 2019, 10:39:22 AM
....'Making them fit...'  Transposing tunes using abc is such a great tool and useful to see if a tune can be crammed onto your box!
Q
Title: Re: Buying Advice
Post by: george garside on November 22, 2019, 11:25:02 AM
or simply "transpose" tunes by ear  which is quite easy once you can hum, sing or whistle  a tune.   As a matter of 'interesting practice'  I often run through a tune in all 12 keys on my BCC# box. - the more you do it the easier it gets  . on a 2 row DG box  its simply a question of playing a tune in D or G ( and maybe A) irrespective of the key it is written in.    It can help to thing in terns of do, re , me etc rather than the name of a particular note.

george
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