Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Other Free Reed Instruments => Topic started by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on December 07, 2019, 10:22:43 AM
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Someone who can play PA, but doesn't >:E
SJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dfnh8K7EN8
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I love playing the pa, but my gentlemanly instincts prevent it. I don't like the sound of them mostly, except when Basil from SW accordions plays, or this:
https://youtu.be/bVjeYbRmkQ4
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There are some excellent p.a players, I admit. However I think it would take several years of re- education for me to understand what the point of all those black and white keys and multiplicity of buttons is. I suppose I could get a tune out of one but I don't consider myself a gentleman...
By the way, I noticed that Paul Hutchinson was playing a P.A. with all black treble keys last Sunday but I reckon he knows his way around the instrument more than a bit ! ;D
J
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I've done two 'Playing for Dancing' workshops with Paul Hutchinson, he is a great musician and a master of the PA. Obviously one of the exceptions that prove the rule! :D
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my vote for master of the non classical piano box would go to Mick Foster - several youtube vids available of him playing solo and ins sessions
george
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By the way, I noticed that Paul Hutchinson was playing a P.A. with all black treble keys last Sunday but I reckon he knows his way around the instrument more than a bit ! ;D
Actually the layout of the keys is plenty of information. The colour distinction is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It would be like having the inside row of the melodeon a different colour. We all know where that row is without the need for colour coding. For me the worst thing about the PA is the cramped position of the right hand compared to the piano. You really can't open the hand in the same way. Whereas I find with the melodeon it is much more ergonomic.
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Interesting point about the ergonomics p+t. (And I fully agree that the colour of the notes on the p.a. make absolutely no difference ! 😊)
I learned piano as a child to a basic level (and in retrospect I wish that I had learned a portable instrument, as there were no opportunities for me to practice as a weekly boarding pupil at school). But when I got involved in folk music at Uni I had no thought of trying P.A. - the bulk and unwieldiness put me off and the bounce, lift and drive of melodeon was just so much better for the music I have always liked. But of course some P.A. players are fantastic musicians - I doubt I would have been anything other than more mediocre if I'd gone down that path !
J
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I could never play a piano accordion! Technically, it is not an "accordion". I do play some button chromatic though. I have a big 4-voice 5-row Paolo Soprani and a smaller Maugein Export.
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You are probably dissing the PA cos you don’t understand it. >:E I can’t bear what I think of as 'elevator' or 'accordion club' music played on a PA, or the evil that are digital PAs. But when played like Paul Hutchinson, or in the Eastern European style, or French musette, or Klezmer..etc. then it’s hard to match. And it’s fully chromatic. The advantage of being a melodeon player and a PA player is that one tends to work the bellows on a PA more than your average accordion teacher can bear. The big drawback of a PA is it’s size and weight compared to a diatonic box. It’s an inelegant looking beast at the best of times. But a good one, like Paul's Beltuna Studio, is a beautiful instrument.
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not that I am defending the piano box but not all are large or sometimes refered to as 'full size' i.e. 120 bass and probably 13 or so couplers. A small 2 voice 40 or 48 bass box will do everything a 2 row DG box is capable of and quite a bit more and is not at all heavy .energy is also saved my not doing constant in and outing of the bellws to get the requird treble notes and of course it is chromatic. Same goes for a small continental chromatic B or C system
The diatonic button box AKA melodeon is in 2 row form more compact but in 3 row form is not much different from a 40 bass piano box'
However presumably all of us on this forum , for whatever reason are addicted to anad greatly enjoy the idiosyncrasies of the so called 'diatonic' push pull system and from a personal point of view that is why I play ''melodeons'' with from 2 to 96 bass and one to three treble rows. On the rare occasions I play a piano or continental box I have to concentrate very hard to avoid keeping a finger on a button'key and giving the bellows a quick waggle in expectation of a different note!
All ''melodeons'' are accordions but not all ''accordions'' are melodeons - or something like that
george
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Playing a diatonic box (or other diatonic instrument) will make you a better PA player. It's not the instrument itself. Rather, it's the depth of understanding of the music by the player. I have a 48 bass PA that I'll use on occasions to save hauling multiple diatonics to cover all the keys...but I'll play the same notes I'd play on my Erica. What I miss is the punch of changing bellows directions and the "sports car" dynamic response of the smaller, higher pressure bellows.
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Definition of a Gentleman? OP
Someone who doesn’t thread drift! 8) ::)
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As a 30+ year veteran of the PA, I can agree with you that it is a beastly instrument, but it has PRESENCE. For small informal affairs with 20-30 people singing and dancing, it is the perfect beast to have.
Simon
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PA = Band in a Box. IMHO no other instrument comes close to such a full and complete sound (and I include CBAs in that too) as an accordion.
That is...when played well.
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PA = Band in a Box. IMHO no other instrument comes close to such a full and complete sound (and I include CBAs in that too) as an accordion.
That is...when played well.
Can you actually hear a difference between a CBA and a PA?
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?only to the extent that there is a 'difference' between similar piano boxes and any so called 'difference' is also effected by the way different players handle the same boxes. Both are 'unisonoric' and the number of reeds in a CBA is exactly the same ( for the same number of voices) be it 3,4 or 5 row.
george
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I think the PA must be a difficult instrument to play well, as most of those I get to hear aren't played well. Very often the sound they make is a bland mush. Despite the range of chords they have available most players seem to use only the three-chord trick, and it is unusual to see anyone doing something inventive with the left hand. Of course in skilled hands it is very different, but I am talking about the average players you are likely to meet in sessions or folk clubs.
The melodeon, even when played to only a middling standard, at least carries more punch, and the limited choice of chords forces players to use them more imaginatively.
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'More punch' ... I think you have a good point there Howard.
Over Christmas a friend sent me a facebook link of someone playing what I take to be a CBA. A many rowed button treble keyboard and large stradella bass end.
The player is incredible, a blur of notes. I can hardly see his left hand moving across the basses; the melody played across the treble keyboard up and down the octaves. All with an effortless smile across the player's face. An amazing display of virtuosity.
But..... no emphasis, no punch, no phrases between the cascade of notes, just a wash of sound.
Not for me.....
Q
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That's very true, but mostly of PAs played in England.
It may be that in other countries it is taken more seriously as a musical instrument, so the 'skilled hands' are more prevalent.
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I think the PA must be a difficult instrument to play well, as most of those I get to hear aren't played well. Very often the sound they make is a bland mush. Despite the range of chords they have available most players seem to use only the three-chord trick, and it is unusual to see anyone doing something inventive with the left hand. Of course in skilled hands it is very different, but I am talking about the average players you are likely to meet in sessions or folk clubs.
The melodeon, even when played to only a middling standard, at least carries more punch, and the limited choice of chords forces players to use them more imaginatively.
The problem with many PA players is that they don't realise that the gaps between the notes (which come for free on a diatonic, if you don't cross the rows to distraction) are at least as important as the notes, if not more so -- this is what turns it into a musical mush. I also wonder how many of them learned to play piano first -- where you do leave your fingers on the keys longer because the sound naturally decays -- and didn't relearn fingering including staccato fingering lifting off keys between notes when they transferred to playing PA. It's also harder to use the bellows to get dynamics on a note-by-note basis because most PAs are much bigger and heavier than diatonic boxes, so it's even more important to get "punch" with crisp fingering and RH chords/harmonies under the tune.
So for people who like their music to have that life and lift that makes you want to dance -- or at least tap your foot -- good PA players are greatly outnumbered by mediocre ones, at least in the UK. The good ones can be *very* good, and I've also heard some terrifically punchy PA/CBA players from abroad, especially eastern Europe, where they're obviously taught "get those fingers *off* the keys between notes". It's also noticeable that many of the good dance PA players use smaller lighter instruments than the 120bass monsters.
One of the best examples of PA playing for dancing I can remember was when Ouse Washes came down to the "5000 Morris Dancers" weekend in London a few years ago; we were standing around on the South Bank on the Sunday chatting when Duncan Ritchie (ex-Smiff, now Adelaide Morris) said loudly "Do you know what I like about this weekend -- no bloody piano accordions!". I fell about laughing, because their PA player (Andrew Steele?) was standing right behind him choking on his beer...
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I think you might mean Andrew Swaine, who plays for Gog Magog Molly and is certainly a good PA player and a notable exception to the "English PA = mush" rule.
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I think you might mean Andrew Swaine, who plays for Gog Magog Molly and is certainly a good PA player and a notable exception to the "English PA = mush" rule.
Yep, that's him :-)
[and it was Gog Magog, my mistake...]
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what Ian said! on a piano its how you press the keys that matters - on a piano ( or continental) box its how you let go of them that's vitaly important as it is of course on a 'diatonic' box
george
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The problem with many PA players is that they don't realise that the gaps between the notes (which come for free on a diatonic, if you don't cross the rows to distraction) are at least as important as the notes, if not more so -- this is what turns it into a musical mush
This, exactly this. There are a few very good PA players on the circuit and when I do hear one it is joyful, unfortunately too many of them seem be the default 'well I played piano at school and this is just the same right?' school of thought.
It is much easier to get the gaps between the notes on a diatonic instrument where the lumps are, to a high degree, already built in.
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There are many brilliant PA players in Scotland - all of them playing traditional Scottish music- and, quite apart from the strictish timing of those who are in demand for SCD in a wide variety of regional styles.
My only problem with the PA is that I never learnt to play it ....I own 2....but one of them hasn't been seen since I lent it to the church organist to try "for a month" (The other one is a Mignon....just so that there's a piano box in the house for visiting PA players if they get desperate).
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how to 'play the gaps' is something I teach would be piano box players fairly early in the proceedings as I do when teaching 'melodeon' as some melodeon players don't play the gaps despite the built in 'lumps'. There are a fair few that play somewhat turgidly
george
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what Ian said! on a piano its how you press the keys that matters - on a piano ( or continental) box its how you let go of them that's vitaly important as it is of course on a 'diatonic' box
george
Debussy, not a name to spring immediately to mind in discussion of highly rhythmic dance music; anyway, him. He is quoted as saying that music is the gaps between the notes. Only in French obvs.
I think other musicians have made similar observations.
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what Ian said! on a piano its how you press the keys that matters - on a piano ( or continental) box its how you let go of them that's vitaly important as it is of course on a 'diatonic' box
george
Debussy, not a name to spring immediately to mind in discussion of highly rhythmic dance music; anyway, him. He is quoted as saying that music is the gaps between the notes. Only in French obvs.
I think other musicians have made similar observations.
Maybe we have a new definition of a musician -- one who plays an instrument and realises that the gaps are at least as important as the notes... ;-)
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Oh no, the terrible secret finally revealed, not only have we to get all the right notes in all the right places, but the right gaps as well ?? What if you are gap deaf ?? I suppose it must be possible as Bach playing Bandoneon players seem to manage - maybe the aspect ratio of the bellow sides is the answer.
Happy and healthy New Year and Decade one and all :|glug
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I think Debussy and the ensembled mass here are bang on.
It annoys me intensely when at times in my local session the mass bank of fiddles go off on one, going from tune to tune at speed ..... and no gaps >:E
It isn't just PA's
Grrrrrr
Q
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It annoys me intensely when at times in my local session the mass bank of fiddles go off on one, going from tune to tune at speed ..... and no gaps >:E
It isn't just PA's
Fiddles can't do the wall of bass-and-chord mush that a badly played PA can, though.
And if there has to be many of one type of instrument in a session, lots of fiddles well played can be far more satisfying than lots of squeezeboxes of any type.
The real danger with fiddles is that once they reach a critical mass, they start playing in the key of A...
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Artur Schnbel, apparently a well known German concert pianist is quoted as saying '' the notes I handle no better than many pianists, but the pauses between the notes - Ah, that is where the art resides'
I totally agree with him and have included that quote in my DG Tutor book as it is every bit as important to melodeon players as it is to pianists. Playing the gaps simply means shortening either the note before or the note after 'the gap' or indeed taking a midge off both. It does not in anyway alter the timing ( in foot tapping terms) of a tune in any way. There are also no 'rules' as to where and how long or short the gaps should be and it is entirely down to the skill of the individual player i'e the 'gaps' are shorter than musical 'rests' Geting it something like right involves detail listening to what is coming out of the box together with some experimentation to get it to your liking.
george
george
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Having been the lone melodeon player at a Fiddle weekend (at Halsway)- reckon it's a lot better than vice versa !
I didn't hear any complaints (or maybe they were just too polite)
J
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It isn't just PA's
Fiddles can't do the wall of bass-and-chord mush that a badly played PA can, though.
I've never been annoyed by a mass of fiddles... but one PA played badly is just awful. Not just PAs though, those chromatic button-y things are just as bad, probably due to the same lack of built-in gaps and lumps.
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Fair enough Anahata.
I think my gripe with fiddles in this situation ( not all I hasten to add! ) is the speed thing.
I popped into a lovely session at Sidmouth this year where the fiddles were an absolute joy to play with, expressive... and no speed freaks.
I am aware though of a regular PA player who is a classic mush player, and and Helena says, it is annoying.
To balance this, as a occasional Loose Knit band session attendee at Sidmouth, there is a PA player who really plays well, with feeling and crisp too. They aren't all mushy!
Q
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To balance this, as a occasional Loose Knit band session attendee at Sidmouth, there is a PA player who really plays well, with feeling and crisp too. They aren't all mushy!
Q
There's also one in there that balances him out - grabs a handful of notes, plays far too fast and with no gaps. Luckily he's not there too often.
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Stran
There's also one in there that balances him out - grabs a handful of notes, plays far too fast and with no gaps. Luckily he's not there too often.
Why do I feel guilty, even though I wasn't there, and don't currently own a PA?
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Artur Schnbel, apparently a well known German concert pianist is quoted as saying '' the notes I handle no better than many pianists, but the pauses between the notes - Ah, that is where the art resides'
Schnabel, that’s the man. Couldn’t remember his name. Thanks.
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There's also one in there that balances him out - grabs a handful of notes, plays far too fast and with no gaps.
Why do I feel guilty, even though I wasn't there, and don't currently own a PA?
I can't imagine. You don't play like that, and even if you had a PA I'm willing to bet you still wouldn't!
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Helena, I suspect strongly that my regular 'mushy' player and your one mentioned are the same.... ::)
Q
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the actual 'mechanics' of playing the gaps is very simple to get the hang of and is exactly the same on both piano box and melodeon. The 'gaps' are created by lifting ones fingers off the buttons or keys between presses. The higher a finger is lifted the longer the gap - lift it a lttle bit for a shorter gap etc and don't lift it atall for a legato effect. Getting the fingers off the buttons is probably easier if using 2 decent shoulder straps as the thumb can rest lightly on the edge of the keyboard rather than having to locate it by pressing or even gripping it.
george
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the actual 'mechanics' of playing the gaps is very simple to get the hang of and is exactly the same on both piano box and melodeon. The 'gaps' are created by lifting ones fingers off the buttons or keys between presses. The higher a finger is lifted the longer the gap - lift it a lttle bit for a shorter gap etc and don't lift it atall for a legato effect. Getting the fingers off the buttons is probably easier if using 2 decent shoulder straps as the thumb can rest lightly on the edge of the keyboard rather than having to locate it by pressing or even gripping it.
george
True, but melodeon also enforces gaps with changes of direction when playing along a row even on novice players; lifting the fingers off has to be learned/taught, and is one of the most important priciples I always emphasized when tutoring people. Also how to use bellows dynamics incuding "squeezing" a note out (increasing pressure after it starts) to add drive, which is easier the smaller and lighter the box is -- this is harder even with big heavy 3-row melodeons (which is why I don't play one), and harder still with modern PAs and CBAs...
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this discussion I'm pretty sure I'm not a gentleman :|||:
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this discussion I'm pretty sure I'm not a gentleman :|||:
But would you consider yourself a Lady? 😉
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this discussion I'm pretty sure I'm not a gentleman :|||:
But would you consider yourself a Lady? 😉
Nope. I think neither I, nor anyone who has met me, would make that mistake.
BTW - 'lady musician', 'lady dancer' etc. Please just don't go there.
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this discussion I'm pretty sure I'm not a gentleman :|||:
But would you consider yourself a Lady? 😉
Nope. I think neither I, nor anyone who has met me, would make that mistake.
BTW - 'lady musician', 'lady dancer' etc. Please just don't go there.
quite right!
george
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[/quote]
True, but melodeon also enforces gaps with changes of direction when playing along a row even on novice players; lifting the fingers off has to be learned/taught, and is one of the most important priciples I always emphasized when tutoring people. Also how to use bellows dynamics incuding "squeezing" a note out (increasing pressure after it starts) to add drive, which is easier the smaller and lighter the box is -- this is harder even with big heavy 3-row melodeons (which is why I don't play one), and harder still with modern PAs and CBAs...
[/quote
disagree with the notion of 'enforced gaps' with bellows direction changes when playing on the row. With practice slow aires and similer tunes can be played extremely smoothly 'on the row' ( with a wee bit of help from the air button)
george
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this discussion I'm pretty sure I'm not a gentleman :|||:
But would you consider yourself a Lady? 😉
Nope. I think neither I, nor anyone who has met me, would make that mistake.
BTW - 'lady musician', 'lady dancer' etc. Please just don't go there.
Thought so. 😀
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disagree with the notion of 'enforced gaps' with bellows direction changes when playing on the row. With practice slow aires and similer tunes can be played extremely smoothly 'on the row' ( with a wee bit of help from the air button)
The difference is that when playing a melodeon "on the row", the push-pull mechanic enforces that one note stops before the next note up or down on the scale starts. Yes, you can play smoothly, but there is always a clean break between the push and the pull note on the same button. (When playing up and down a scale; it's obviously still possible to mush together notes than are in the same bellows direction.)
On a piano accordion or chromatic button accordion (or when playing a melodeon "across the rows"), it is entirely possible to hold down the first note too long, slightly overlapping the next note in the scale. That's simply not possible when playing a melodeon in a push-pull fashion.
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it can - its all part of the art of faking!
george >:E