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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jesse Smith on January 08, 2020, 11:00:05 PM

Title: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Jesse Smith on January 08, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
I've been playing the melodeon for about two years now, and I feel like I am reaching a point where playing with other people would be enormously helpful, not to say very enjoyable! Trouble is, I have not found any sort of general traditional music session where the English tunes I play would be part of the repertoire. There are quite a few Irish sessions, an Old Time American fiddle jam, bluegrass jams, blues jams, even an Indonesian gamelan group, but no "English session". The thing is, I know there are people around who do play this sort of repertoire or would be open to it. There's a weekly contra dance with live music. My son's music teacher has taught several Playford tunes to their recorder ensemble. An hour's drive east of here there's a Scottish session and an English Country Dance group that does an annual "Jane Austen ball", etc. It seems like the people are there or could be cultivated, but no advertised venue.

So if the mountain will not come to Muhammad... My winter project is contemplating starting up my own monthly session, in the "English pub session" spirit. My thought is to define it as a "traditional music session" rather than specifically English, but with the idea of leaving the Irish repertoire mostly to the long-running Irish session in town. It would be open to any traditional acoustic instruments. (I might be the only melodeon player in my city, and almost certainly the only D/G player.)

Any advice people can offer would be much appreciated! (Especially if there's anyone who has started up or run a session in the United States.)

A couple of specific questions:

My understanding of the cultural difference between the "Irish session" and "English session" (mostly garnered from online reading) is that in most Irish sessions, the expectation is that you learn the tunes on their own time, and do not attempt to join in at the session unless you are confident in being able to play along at speed. While in most English sessions, there is much more allowance for quietly playing along trying to pick up the tune, or playing chord vamps, etc. Would you say this generalization is accurate? This was certainly how things worked in the English sessions I've attended at the Northeast Squeeze-In free reed weekend the past two years, and I would prefer to promote this more laid-back approach as long as people are sensitive enough to try to be making a positive contribution to the music.

As a relative beginner, I'm concerned about ending up in a situation where no one, including myself, feels confident enough to start tunes. Will I end up having to teach the repertoire? Does it make sense to have an established playlist that we all attempt to learn? At what point does it become less of a session and more of a workshop / ensemble?

I guess my hope is to create an opportunity to draw together people who are interested in traditional music in general, and see where things evolve from there. As I said, I think there are other musicians out there with interest or exposure or willingness to play this kind of music. The trick is getting people connected.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: squeezy on January 08, 2020, 11:24:31 PM
I live in England so playing English sessions is not too hard here ... but in my spare time I love playing French dance music - and a French session was started up here more than 10 years ago and is still going strong.  The original guy who started it up charmed people who were really great players and got them to come along ... he also started a facebook group (pah!) OK I'm not a fan, but most people are ... and put up tunes there to learn before each session which gave some people the confidence to come and drove the repertoire of the session with some great tunes.

Similar things have since been done with a Galician session and a Scandinavian session here in Oxford with some good success.

Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: squeezy on January 08, 2020, 11:26:18 PM
Also ... sessions for the main part ... you are expected to learn the tunes in your own time.  But a policy of playing tunes a good number of times through during the session helps participants to hone their ear and learn tunes rather than the common policy of play it 3 times and change.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Pearse Rossa on January 09, 2020, 04:23:22 AM
My thought is to define it as a "traditional music session" rather than specifically English, but with the idea of leaving the Irish repertoire mostly to the long-running Irish session in town.

You could always stick up a "No Irish" notice like they do in England.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tiposx on January 09, 2020, 07:32:20 AM
Please tell us that's supposed to be a joke?
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 09, 2020, 07:40:35 AM
You could always stick up a "No Irish" notice like they do in England.

That's just nasty. I've been to many sessions in England over the years and never, ever, have I seen a notice like that.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Winston Smith on January 09, 2020, 08:05:40 AM
I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing slow English dirge types of tunes in a session in Ireland?
It seems to me that this whole argument is rather pointless, as people who meet together to play tunes would probably have an interest in the same sort of music, and, if they were lovers of what's recognised as English folk, really wouldn't want someone to come in and start bashing out French or Irish or Ukrainian (or whatever?) music, if that wasn't their "bag". I find that most people congregate with like-minded souls, in whichever field we're talking about at any particular moment.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Theo on January 09, 2020, 08:49:17 AM
The best sessions are with people who are friends and know each others musical likes and dislikes.  Picking up on something Squeezy said earlier I suggest that you start by seeking out those people who you think would be interested.  Once you have made contacts you can start conversations about your shared musical interests and see where that leads.  If the others are at a similar musical stage to yourself then small get togethers in each others homes might by a more enjoyable way to share music.  Going public in a pub session really does need strong but unobtrusive leadership from a core of confident players.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: richard.fleming on January 09, 2020, 09:02:36 AM
After 2 years few people would be good enough to lead a session, so unless you've made extremely good progress I think you need either to find an established session where you can quietly see if you can fit in, or find someone to play with in the house.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 09:12:36 AM
I think both Richard and Theo have put my thoughts forward for me.
Establishing a group of like minded friends give you a group protection. If you loose the tune if leading then, someone else can pick it up and remind you, allowing you to pick it back up.
T
Just reflecting on my monday's 'first of the month' session, of the dozen or so people there, at least 4 others I've known for 40  years (argh!!) of dancing/playing with them. They've been encouraging when I switched instruments, and you do get to know their favourite tunes that come out frequently. By learing those, you increase and strengthen the group musical bond.
Good luck with the project.
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: The Oul' Boy on January 09, 2020, 09:17:45 AM
You could always stick up a "No Irish" notice like they do in England.

That's just nasty. I've been to many sessions in England over the years and never, ever, have I seen a notice like that.

Well, I've seen listings giving 'Irish session' for one night and 'Anything but Irish session' on other nights, but nothing as crass as 'No Irish'! Probably useful to specify in areas in England with a big Irish folk scene.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 09, 2020, 10:11:56 AM
I heartily applaud anyone who is willing to take the initiative and start up a music session, of any sort, Jesse.

Personally, I most enjoy sessions where any kind of acoustic music is played and enjoyed, and I find the idea of unspoken 'rules' on what to play rather at odds with the whole point of enjoying playing and listening to music.  However I also appreciate that others do not necessarily agree with me there.  For example, there do seem to be many sessions whose point is for participants to learn standard tunes in a particular genre - often English or Irish trad, and players enjoy it because that's what they want to learn.  If the club says to everyone that's what it wants to do, that's fine with me.  It's fine for the club too, provided enough musicians are interested in that specific idea to want to come along, and any non-players in the pub or room don't get too put off. 

However, if you want to start a session, isn't the first thing to do to find out who else is interested and what their ideas are, and then see what emerges from that by consensus?  I agree with Theo here.  We are blessed (or cursed?) with playing an instrument that is quite capable of drowning most other instruments out if played insensitively, and I'm afraid we do need to recognise that a roomful of us can be a mandolinist's worse nightmare!  It is indeed the case that many sessions are based round a capable group of friends playing together, but they need to be very careful to be very inclusive for the club to succeed, otherwise other musos will quickly decide it's not for them.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Roger Hare on January 09, 2020, 10:17:53 AM
I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing slow English
dirge types of tunes in a session in Ireland?
I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing "The Sash my
Father Wore
" in a session in Ireland (as opposed to Ulster)?  8)
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 09, 2020, 10:48:52 AM
I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing slow English dirge types of tunes in a session in Ireland?

That sounds like fighting talk, I think you mean well paced bouncy dance tunes, or something of the kind.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Pearse Rossa on January 09, 2020, 11:03:44 AM
You could always stick up a "No Irish" notice like they do in England.

That's just nasty.
I agree. The Irish have a resilient nature though.


I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing "The Sash my
Father Wore
" in a session in Ireland (as opposed to Ulster)?  8)
You would counter it with a good old Republican number. Maybe this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tN46weZSBQ).
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 11:15:48 AM
Looks like we're drifting away from Jesse's question into
 ( another ) Irish sesh debate....
Here Be Dragons !!!
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 09, 2020, 11:42:34 AM
Given that there are no English sessions in you area, Jesse, how about getting a group of like minded people together to play music at a comfortable speed in a non-public location. My friend Jimmy (of this parish) did something a bit like this in Cornwall. He runs a very successful slow session in the Liskeard Public Hall (which is actually private), on that basis. I think he probably started out with more experience, but that doesn't really matter in your context. You already have sufficient to know, what you want to play and how you want to play it.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 11:55:42 AM
I think Greg's suggestion is a good one. Build a base of like minded people.
Finding them might prove problematic in your location....?
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 09, 2020, 12:09:18 PM
I think Greg's suggestion is a good one. Build a base of like minded people.
Finding them might prove problematic in your location....?
Q

You don't know if you don't try.
Jesse did say he knows there is an interest in the English repertoire, there just doesn't seem somewhere for it to happen.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Winston Smith on January 09, 2020, 12:30:55 PM
"Here Be Dragons !!!" Indeed!

Nevertheless, I don't think that any Irish music v English music is necessarily the case in this instance. But it does need to be pointed out that, as Q goes on to say; "Finding them might prove problematic in your location....?"
(My own preferences in music to play on my melodeons hasn't really been catered for in any of the gatherings which I've attended, but I can (mostly) still enjoy what is on offer, even a bit of French stuff!)
But how does one go about finding individuals who are generally easy-going enough to be willing to adapt to other's tastes, while playing tunes of your own choice only infrequently, in Jesse's situation? Do other melodeonists anywhere near him read this forum, for instance? Or, is there a folk music or Morris scene where other instrumentalists might gather? Are our instruments apparent in any American music genres? (I know there's Cajun etc, but that's pretty specialist, surely, and not really what he seems to be looking for?)   
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Alan Pittwood on January 09, 2020, 12:31:30 PM
slow English dirge types of tunes

New year, new decade: first sighting?  Will there be a Mallinson tune book to support this new trend?
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Winston Smith on January 09, 2020, 12:49:31 PM
"slow English dirge types of tunes"

I'm now sorry that I used that throw away phrase, although I never imagined that it would detract from Jesse's thread! It was an attempt to describe some English folk music in a similar way to which some foreign folk sometimes do; that's all.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 01:02:27 PM
Having danced at the Marlboro Ale in Vermont, and around Boston and Syracuse, there is a niche Morris scene in pockets around the north, but the US is a very large country and travelling to meet up with such people is a long haul.
There might be Morris nearby? It would be worth asking the Boston contingent to see if they have connections in Ohio.
I suspect Google is your friend!
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: richard.fleming on January 09, 2020, 01:15:39 PM
I find the idea of unspoken 'rules' on what to play rather at odds with the whole point of enjoying playing and listening to music. 
/quote]

I think the unwritten rules of sessions are one of their strengths - a set of conventions distilled from views shared by everyone which prevent conflict and ensure people display good manners when they play together. As for Irish sessions, apart from the fact that the Irish in exile probably invented the session as we know it, a reason to have a session that is all-Irish is that a lifetime is not enough for learning to play this music. I like other music but life is a bit too short to play it all. I suppose if you are playing English traditional music this might not apply as it is in general very simple and very easy to play, but by the same token some might find that boring.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
Richard, an interesting observation that English music is simple and boring.
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this. The only parallels I can think of is the influence of the Northumbrian Pipers Society who have nurtured the playing of their pipes and consolidated their respective music.

English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia. In the early 1970's, 1972 I think, the Old Swan Band issued their 'No Reels' lp as to them, all folk music here tended to be Celtic as reflected in the bands, Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span.

My point being, with Old Swan, Flowers and Frolics and New Victory, in the early '70's all of a sudden they were playing English music, dragged up by it's bootlaces.
People realised that the written tunes were simple, as that was just the skeleton to hang the tune on. Playing the same simple tune for ~ 15mins, and the Hardys in Dorset did meant the tune morphed improvised and wasn't the simple written down tune.
But.... we have had to learn this as we had no societies to teach us.
The standard of playing has increased exponentially.
We have discovered a lot of manuscripts of old tunes that are complex and definitely not simple in any form.
Without the organisations available to support English music, it has had to learn and grow by itself.
...and it has.
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: richard.fleming on January 09, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
A very measured response. Thank you. Yes, I agree, the English revival has thrived in spite of initial disadvantages, one maybe having been initially tied to simplified printed sources, another being the lack of a tradition of ornamentation and development of the tunes, and another, dare I say it, being the imposition of the DG melodeon on the reviving tradition which seems to have led to an unfortunate preoccupation with loading the music with bass and chord accompaniments rather than developing the melody itself. I don't know why DG players usually have such a loud left hand, but they seem to, and in my view it usually detracts from rather than enhances the tune.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Jesse Smith on January 09, 2020, 02:34:21 PM
Lots of great food for thought here - thanks!!

I don't want to belabor the "Irish vs English" thing, other than to say that there's a weekly Irish session in town that has been running for over 15 years, so my feeling is they've got that repertoire covered already.

I agree with Richard that I don't have the experience or repertoire to lead a very public session. I think I'm hoping to be more of an "organizer" or "facilitator" than a "leader".

Greg makes a nice suggestion, of places that are not quite as public as a pub but not as private as someone's home. There are places around here that rent space for community groups. Bars/taverns often have "banquet rooms" for private parties, etc.

Q - there's a small Morris group an hour's drive east of here, along with an English Country Dance group, and a melodeon/concertina "button box club". Syracuse (three hour's drive) has a quite healthy Morris scene the last time I checked. But as a married fellow with young kids, it's hard for me to go gallivanting off on long road trips, and so I am hoping to cultivate my own garden.

I think in the end I'm going to have to sneak into some of the "musically adjacent" groups around here - the Irish sessions, the Old Time fiddle jam, the contra dances - and try to rustle up some interest. Of course, I don't want to come off like I'm "poaching" people from other groups, either...
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: george garside on January 09, 2020, 02:57:42 PM
[quote author=richard.flemi ;)

probably because they don't lift fingers off the bass buttons to create a pause between the UM and the PA.  Shortening the bass notes and chords  by simly by getting some freash air between fingers and buttons effectively makes the bass sound less obtrusive.

george >:E
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
Jesse, I quite understand that at times in our life we need to look to our own.
It might well be worth keeping an eye on morris tours in case some come close to your home. Taking the kids out to watch something different might kill two birds with one stone  (:)

I think having a look at the established sessions locally is a good move. A quick chat between tunes might mean you meet others of a similar ilk to yourself. You never know!
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Clawhammer on January 09, 2020, 03:30:14 PM
I agree with Winston re: not getting to prickly about the distinction between "Irish" and "English" tunes.  I'm here in the MidWest US and have an area monthly "Irish" section in which one character refuses to play proposed "Northumbrian" or tune that seem to be getting played all over the UK.  What a world.  Best Wishes in New York!  Bill
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tufty on January 09, 2020, 04:22:35 PM
, a reason to have a session that is all-Irish is that a lifetime is not enough for learning to play this music. I like other music but life is a bit too short to play it all. I suppose if you are playing English traditional music this might not apply as it is in general very simple and very easy to play, but by the same token some might find that boring.
Why do some people have this urge to slag off music that they don't play? Why not accept that what you happen to like is not necessarily better than what someone else enjoys? Just different. Myself I enjoy playing English, French and Irish music but make my apologies and leave when a session develops into not stop Irish reels. I find them boring but that is my problem, not the fault of the music. They just all sound the same to me. Regarding getting sessions going I would recommend starting in peoples' homes to start with, less stressful than a room full of strangers!
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Pearse Rossa on January 09, 2020, 04:29:26 PM
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.

You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
Under British rule in Ireland, we were denied our culture, language, religion, civil liberties, land ownership, voting rights, right to education, right to employment, etc.
Throw in the attempts at genocide and it's a miracle we survived at all as a race, never mind the fact that our music has.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 09, 2020, 05:06:13 PM
Tufty, you have put your finger on it.  I am afraid it is what a few people sometimes do, and it's unpleasant when it happens at a session.  I've no objection to clubs setting whatever spoken rules they like, as I say.  But if the rules are unspoken by the club organisers, then to criticise another musician who happens to transgress them through ignorance, or in the name of variety, is not on.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 09, 2020, 06:22:15 PM
Pearse I totally agree with your summing up, we have treated Ireland and their people appallingly for centuries. That is without question.
I was merely trying to make the point that their musical culture has survived through being organised and having formal teaching. Consequently it has evolved and is in great shape.

English music has none of those benefits, it was almost lost. To my deep sadness we put absolutely no credence or worth on our cultural heritage, whether it be traditional music or tradition dance.
Ask any Morris dancer, who if admitting Morris dancing  as their hobby to a stranger gets a smirk or snigger as a normal response.
In other parts of Europe, Ireland included, me as a Morris dancer has treated with respect and respect.
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 09, 2020, 06:53:19 PM

English music has none of those benefits, it was almost lost. To my deep sadness we put absolutely no credence or worth on our cultural heritage, whether it be traditional music or tradition dance.
Ask any Morris dancer, who if admitting Morris dancing  as their hobby to a stranger gets a smirk or snigger as a normal response.
In other parts of Europe, Ireland included, me as a Morris dancer has treated with respect and respect.
Q

I  couldn't agree more; Cyprus Morris is entering its 12th year, and we have established excellent relations with Cypriot dance groups and other cultural organisations who had never realised that England had any traditions other than dawn-to-dusk drinking and treating other nationalities with disdain.  We are warmly welcomed at the local festivities we attend and enjoy the respect of our fellow upholders of a national tradition.

Graham
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Pearse Rossa on January 09, 2020, 11:27:30 PM
Pearse I totally agree with your summing up...

I acknowledge and appreciate your conciliatory words.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: richard.fleming on January 09, 2020, 11:55:13 PM
I suppose this is all to do with Britain's imperial past. Ireland (for example) reacted against oppression by trying to protect and support its culture in defiance of Britain's attempts to suppress it; the English part of Great Britain had no such motivation. Whereas Ireland massively supported indigenous culture (language, music, dance etc) after independence, in England this was left to amateurs such as the English Folk Dance and Song Society. There was no political will such as there was in Ireland.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Peadar on January 10, 2020, 02:34:47 AM
I suppose this is all to do with Britain's imperial past. Ireland (for example) reacted against oppression by trying to protect and support its culture in defiance of Britain's attempts to suppress it; the English part of Great Britain had no such motivation. Whereas Ireland massively supported indigenous culture (language, music, dance etc) after independence, in England this was left to amateurs such as the English Folk Dance and Song Society. There was no political will such as there was in Ireland.
If one cross checks the Time Lines of The English Folk Dance and Song Society, Conradh na Gaeilge and An Comunn Gaidhealach I think you will find they were all established circa 1890. What is more significant in English national terms is the presence/lack of Royal Patronage. England has an RSPCA and an EFDSS, but Scotland has an SSPCCA and a RSCDS.
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.

You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
Under British rule in Ireland, we were denied our culture, language, religion, civil liberties, land ownership, voting rights, right to education, right to employment, etc.
Throw in the attempts at genocide and it's a miracle we survived at all as a race, never mind the fact that our music has.
In the Scottish context all of the above is also true of the Gaidhlig and of the Gaidheal (Gaidhlig= the language, Gaidheal= the people). In the context of the United Kingdom...Buidheachas do Dhia!!!! I have just heard Mary Lou MacDonald of Sinn Fein on Radio 4 Newsnight announcing "We now have Acht na Gaelige". Tha mi air feitheamh corr is fichead bliadhna an naidheachd sin a chluintinn! And just for the record- the Gaelic language is every bit as much the heritage of Irish Unionists as it is of Irish nationalists...sadly a heritage which became alien to vast majority of the Unionist population in the early 20th century.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Roger Hare on January 10, 2020, 05:40:13 AM
Looks like we're drifting away from Jesse's question...
Notatall. I've been wondering about the possibility of trying to start a small, local session for
a while, and some of the suggestions here have been very helpful. I've even got a possible
venue (with proper beer!🍺)...

...Build a base of like minded people.
Finding them might prove problematic in your location....?
...but I fear that this may indeed be the major problem, even in an area with a large population.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Howard Jones on January 10, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Given the turn this discussion has taken, I feel a need to point out that the "anything but Irish" aspect of English music sessions is not based on any anti-Irish sentiment.  Many of us enjoy both forms, some play both, or like myself started out playing Irish music before discovering our own musical heritage.

The reason is partly historical.  When the English Country Music revival began a traditional music session in England almost always meant Irish music.  For the nascent ECM revival to develop and thrive in this environment English sessions had to distinguish themselves from the others.  There was no lack of opportunities to play Irish music, but these early English sessions could easily have been overwhelmed and the revival stifled before it got going.

Now that English music is well-established that perhaps no longer applies.  However there is another, more practical reason - despite their many similarities the two aren't really compatible.  This may be due to the different session cultures - ITM tends to be more disciplined, you are expected to have learned the tunes beforehand and play them in a particular way.  English sessions can be more like jam sessions, and often the enjoyment comes from seeing how a tune can be developed by musicians bouncing ideas off each other, and sometimes considerable liberties are taken with the original.  Although the instruments may be the same, the playing styles are different.  D/G melodeon isn't widely used for Irish music.  I also play concertina, but to play it Irish-style would mean relearning the instrument from scratch.  Even fiddle styles are different.

In my experience mixed sessions generally don't work.  The players of Irish music (the majority of whom are English) generally don't attempt to join in with the English tunes, perhaps because they haven't learned them beforehand.  When their opportunity comes, they launch into interminable sets of fast reels from which the English players feel excluded.  If they do try to join in, the Irish players may be unhappy that they are not playing the tune "just so", or worse are taking liberties with it.  It ends up as a competition between different groups, which is the opposite of what a session should be.  Far better that both groups keep to their own sessions.

French and Scandinavian tunes are more easily assimilated into English sessions, but they tend to be played in an English style and maybe if there were a large number of authentic French and Scandinavian musicians trying to play them correctly then a similar conflict would arise.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 10, 2020, 09:05:42 AM
Thank you Howard for another historical perspective. I agree with your reasoning for re-establishing ECM.
My monthly session is deemed 'English' but if someone puts in a French/European, Scandinavian, Quebecois or Irish tune no one minds, quite the opposite in fact as  all is welcome.
A good tune is a good tune, and if new to the session people listen then try and pick it up, or join in if it is known.
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Theo on January 10, 2020, 10:38:33 AM
I think I’m very fortunate, sessions I go to here are eclectic. In recent weeks we’ve played, English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Shetland, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, American, Canadian, French, Breton, Italian, Québécois.  Which reminds me the Estonian and Belgian tunes haven't been out for a while.
Seriously folks it’s all part of the same European musical heritage.  Just enjoy whatever comes along.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 10, 2020, 10:57:14 AM
Can I also make an appeal for generality here, in the light of Howard's comments about mixed sessions?

It seems to me that when musos talk about 'sessions', they have very different understandings of the concept, depending probably mainly on what type of music they themselves play/sing.  Many contributors to this thread seem to assume that sessions are all traditional folk, either English or Irish, and that the intention is that everyone joins in and plays the same tune or even set of tunes, in given keys.  I have been to many where this is exactly what happens, and nothing else.   I personally find such sessions enjoyable, but probably only for a bit.

Jesse may well be of a similar mind, but he hasn't said so, and I suggest there's no need for such self-imposed restrictions.

I co-run an acoustic music session, which deliberately and openly encourages all genres of acoustic music, and it has become very popular.  The format is that we take it in turns to perform or lead a tune or song, so that that musician performs something on their own, and asks for others to join in (or doesn't object if they, sensitively, do).  People play trad and contemporary English, Irish, French, Welsh, Scottish, American, jazz, 60's pop, blues, Americana, bluegrass, anything.  And it really works - everyone really appreciates each performer's musical contribution for what it is, in their particular style, very often surprising collaborations emerge, and it is very enjoyable to perform with such an eclectic audience.  I believe we have been successful because there is so much talent out there, with a diverse range of musical interests, and we have found a formula that seems to attract them all in.

Jesse, even if there aren't other box players nearby, I believe you could easily set up a club like this, and also greatly enjoy the mix that results.  You will also be surprised how appreciative other musicians will be that you have given them the opportunity to do what they love most - to play.

I like to think of the box as a musical instrument - it doesn't just play trad folk, it has all sorts of uses.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 10, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
The monthly session I ran for 6 or 7 years was just "acoustic"; there are so few "folk" musicians of any sort here in Cyprus that limiting it to one nationality or even one genre would have resulted in a VERY small session - maybe 3 participants!  As it was, I had a mailing list of about 24 singers & players, and could usually bank on 8 to a dozen turning up. OK, some of the music wasn't ideal for joining in with, but there wasn't really anywhere else for people to come & play just for the enjoyment of doing it.  Like most of these things, though, it had a natural lifespan and I decided to  stop last summer; inevitably, with a small pool of participants people move away, lose interest or no longer have the available time and it got into a bit of a rut; part of the trick in running a session is knowing when to stop.......

Graham
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 10, 2020, 11:00:20 AM
Chris, you and I must have posted pretty well simultaneously!  I fully agree with you.

Graham
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 10, 2020, 11:03:24 AM
(Graham, you may be interested to know that you have a pipe and oboe player staying in Cyprus at the moment repairing a house, who might well appreciate a play!)
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 10, 2020, 11:41:53 AM
(Graham, you may be interested to know that you have a pipe and oboe player staying in Cyprus at the moment repairing a house, who might well appreciate a play!)

Yes, that might be interesting. Do you know whereabouts on the island s/he is?  If it's somewhere not too far away I cam PM you some contact details to pass on.

Cheers
Graham
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Peadar on January 10, 2020, 11:02:06 PM
 See below... Acht na Gaelige is going to happen in Northern Ireland.  :|glug :||: :||: :||: ;D ;D ;D ;D :|glug :|glug :|glug

Quote from: Thrupenny Bit link
=topic=24903.msg296202#msg296202 date=1578578162
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.

You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
Under British rule in Ireland, we were denied our culture, language, religion, civil liberties, land ownership, voting rights, right to education, right to employment, etc.
Throw in the attempts at genocide and it's a miracle we survived at all as a race, never mind the fact that our music has.
In the Scottish context all of the above is also true of the Gaidhlig and of the Gaidheal (Gaidhlig= the language, Gaidheal= the people). In the context of the United Kingdom...Buidheachas do Dhia!!!! I have just heard Mary Lou MacDonald of Sinn Fein on Radio 4 Newsnight announcing "We now have Acht na Gaelige". Tha mi air feitheamh corr is fichead bliadhna an naidheachd sin a chluintinn! And just for the record- the Gaelic language is every bit as much the heritage of Irish Unionists as it is of Irish nationalists...sadly a heritage which became alien to vast majority of the Unionist population in the early 20th century.

[/quote]
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: playandteach on January 11, 2020, 12:18:16 AM
See below... Acht na Gaelige is going to happen in Northern Ireland.  :|glug :||: :||: :||: ;D ;D ;D ;D :|glug :|glug :|glug

Quote from: Thrupenny Bit link
=topic=24903.msg296202#msg296202 date=1578578162
In the Scottish context all of the above is also true of the Gaidhlig and of the Gaidheal (Gaidhlig= the language, Gaidheal= the people). In the context of the United Kingdom...Buidheachas do Dhia!!!! I have just heard Mary Lou MacDonald of Sinn Fein on Radio 4 Newsnight announcing "We now have Acht na Gaelige". Tha mi air feitheamh corr is fichead bliadhna an naidheachd sin a chluintinn! And just for the record- the Gaelic language is every bit as much the heritage of Irish Unionists as it is of Irish nationalists...sadly a heritage which became alien to vast majority of the Unionist population in the early 20th century.

Really not sure what you are saying here. I like to be included, but happy to accept that I might just be irretrievably out of this loop.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 11, 2020, 08:58:08 AM

 "We now have Acht na Gaelige". Tha mi air feitheamh corr is fichead bliadhna an naidheachd sin a chluintinn! And just for the record- the Gaelic language is every bit as much the heritage of Irish Unionists as it is of Irish nationalists...sadly a heritage which became alien to vast majority of the Unionist population in the early 20th century.

Really not sure what you are saying here. I like to be included, but happy to accept that I might just be irretrievably out of this loop.
[/quote]

"We now have the gaelic language act. I've been waiting twenty years to hear that news". We also have google translate, now  ;D
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 11, 2020, 09:34:22 AM
I'm currently reading Bill Bryson's book about words and language.
It points out how massively important language is and how it has been used as a tool of suppression. Until recently, a letter addressed in Breton would be returned with a stamp on it telling the sender Breton was not allowed.
I find such things sad and difficult to comprehend.....
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: george garside on January 11, 2020, 11:02:30 AM
indeed!

G
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Winston Smith on January 11, 2020, 11:29:26 AM
"I find such things sad and difficult to comprehend"

What's that then? The fact that the Bretons want to use their own language when they know that non-Breton speakers cannot understand it? Or the fact that the postal workers wouldn't necessarily understand where it's supposed to be going and therefore the letter (or whatever) might take a long time to get to its destination, if at all?

I find that I just skip over posts written in Gaelic on here, as it seems obvious that those who use it are content to keep the discussion amongst themselves, unless they also offer a translation that is.

I just think we all need to be practical.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: playandteach on January 11, 2020, 11:32:54 AM
I find that I just skip over posts written in Gaelic on here, as it seems obvious that those who use it are content to keep the discussion amongst themselves, unless they also offer a translation that is.
That's advice I'll follow from now on. Thanks for an easy solution.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Mark Leue on January 11, 2020, 12:41:47 PM
Hi Jesse,
I'm in the same general region as you and have been involved in Morris and other folk music for 40 something years. a couple of thoughts.

There are, no doubt good opportunities to play music with like minded people in your area, but making those connections takes a bit of persistence and some luck. I know for sure there are lots of subgenera of folk happening close to you that are not dominated by Americans blasting out Irish jigs and reels, and here are a few things that might help connect with them.

I would suggest learning to figure out how to vamp chords and create solos to "American roots" music,"old time" "country folk" "contemporary singer songwriters" and stuff that falls into general American "folk music" is happening in pretty laid back song and tune circles where people go around a circle and present songs, some of which may be well known by the other players and some of which are new to everyone but the singer, but that everyone of a certain skill level can improvise on as the pace and chord changes of about 75 percent of the material is pretty easy to participate and learn on the fly.  Learn to play along with the radio, or recordings of folk music  As I know you have the one DG box, there will be a lot of material you will have to sit it out on at the moment, but luckily D and G and em are quite popular keys for this stuff. You ought to consider picking up a CF at least. Also make sure you can play quietly when needed! There are great festivals not far from you, where you'll have plenty of opportunity to play with musicians doing alll kinds of different genres. "the old songs festival" in Gulderland is a good place to start.

As far as English tunes and songs go, there is in fact a Morris team, "snow belt" not that far from you, I think they're from Buffalo area.
Even better there's a couple of "ales" tours where a bunch of Morris  teams get together for a weekend and go at it non stop. There's "the dog days" ale in the Ithaca area, parts of which you can crash in the evening as a way to play so0me tunes, and hopefully meet the other players of this music. If you really want to go all out there's English week at Pinewoods, A couple of weekends of "youth traditional sing" (not as youthful as the name suggests) You should get to know some of the other northeast Morris teams like Pokingbrook in Albany, even if its unsustainable as a regular thing, you will eventually meet the people in the region who regularly play this music and dance all the associated dances, like border, rapper, Molly, clog, English ceilidh, English country dance, ETC.  oh and lots of contra dance groups do a wide range of tunes from Europe.   Go to "the dance flurry" in Saratoga,  bring the family. it's something everyone can enjoy.  NEFFA is another great folk music and dance festival.

hope this helps.

Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 11, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
Mark, a lot of useful stuff for Jesse there, thank you.
A couple of friends came over and taught at Pinewoods this year I believe, it seems to be a full on time when it runs.
cheers
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: richard.fleming on January 11, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
See below... Acht na Gaelige is going to happen in Northern Ireland.  :|glug :||: :||: :||: ;D ;D ;D ;D :|glug :|glug :|glug

Quote from: Thrupenny Bit link
=topic=24903.msg296202#msg296202 date=1578578162
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.
You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
In the Scottish context all of the above is also true of the Gaidhlig and of the Gaidheal (Gaidhlig= the language, Gaidheal= the people).
In an earlier contribution to this thread I deliberately omitted to mention the Scottish Highland culture because in the last two hundred years some aspects of the culture have been deliberately discouraged but others have been positively encouraged by the 'establishment' from Queen Victoria down. I would argue that many of these encouraged aspects are distinctly bogus, but the whole situation is so complex and contradictory that I shied away from it. Maybe Peadar will too. Tá súil agam nach mbeidh!
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Jesse Smith on January 13, 2020, 10:29:22 PM
Thanks everyone - lots of great food for thought, and especially Mark for some ideas specific to my region.

I would suggest learning to figure out how to vamp chords and create solos to "American roots" music,"old time" "country folk" "contemporary singer songwriters" and stuff that falls into general American "folk music" is happening in pretty laid back song and tune circles where people go around a circle and present songs, some of which may be well known by the other players and some of which are new to everyone but the singer, but that everyone of a certain skill level can improvise on as the pace and chord changes of about 75 percent of the material is pretty easy to participate and learn on the fly.  Learn to play along with the radio, or recordings of folk music  As I know you have the one DG box, there will be a lot of material you will have to sit it out on at the moment, but luckily D and G and em are quite popular keys for this stuff. You ought to consider picking up a CF at least. Also make sure you can play quietly when needed! There are great festivals not far from you, where you'll have plenty of opportunity to play with musicians doing alll kinds of different genres. "the old songs festival" in Gulderland is a good place to start.

My first instrument was acoustic guitar, so vamping chords is familiar ground for me. And I do have a C/F box, but it has some holes in the bellows corners and is a bit wheezy! (Though I suppose that helps with the "play quietly" part.  ;))

Quote
As far as English tunes and songs go, there is in fact a Morris team, "snow belt" not that far from you, I think they're from Buffalo area.

They are in Rochester, about an hour's drive east. Definitely worth connecting with, although inconveniently far for weekly rehearsals, etc. And there are Morris groups and English sessions in Cambridge and Toronto, Ontario, both about two hours away. Actually, I had a private message from someone pointing out that being so close to Toronto is a great opportunity for an American interested in English music and Morris dance, and I think he is right. There are definitely more isolated places one could be!

Quote
Even better there's a couple of "ales" tours where a bunch of Morris  teams get together for a weekend and go at it non stop. There's "the dog days" ale in the Ithaca area, parts of which you can crash in the evening as a way to play so0me tunes, and hopefully meet the other players of this music.

I should definitely check out the Dog Days ale; I hadn't thought about going to an ale as a "musical groupie". Makes sense, though!
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Pearse Rossa on January 14, 2020, 03:34:33 AM
I've often wondered what the state of play would be if someone started up playing slow English dirge types of tunes in a session in Ireland?
Dirge: "a lament for the dead, especially one forming part of a funeral rite".

I can't imagine that something like that would go down too well, to be honest.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 14, 2020, 06:22:36 AM
I'm currently reading Bill Bryson's book about words and language.
It points out how massively important language is and how it has been used as a tool of suppression. Until recently, a letter addressed in Breton would be returned with a stamp on it telling the sender Breton was not allowed.
I find such things sad and difficult to comprehend.....
Q

Interesting point there Q.
  Many many years ago I met a girl in Paris France who told me her father was in prison for refusing to do National service. The reason being, he was Breton and De Gaul  would not let Bretons give their children Breton names. So why should he defend France with that official attitude.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 14, 2020, 08:37:37 AM
Morning Nick.
Trouble is, if you look at our history we have been guilty of massive suppression so if you live in glass houses....

Jesse I have had the pleasure of meeting and dancing with Toronto morris, a great social crowd and I know they play English music and some are ex- pat's. Keep an eye open for them.
Q
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Anahata on January 14, 2020, 10:03:10 AM
And there are Morris groups and English sessions in Cambridge and Toronto, Ontario, both about two hours away.

I know the Cambrige lot well, and they are definitely worth a visit. Tethera (https://tethera.webs.com/) are the core of it - if you contact them, they will know what's going on.
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Lyn on January 15, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
Years ago when I played fiddle we went to a great session in a pub. We played ed lots of Irish tunes and a big mixture of others. The pub closed, and several other sessions closed down too. I began playlist hg a DG melodeon andnfound it quite difficult to play manybof my favourite Irish tunes with any agility or confidence. Several others bewailed the loss of the sessions, and some of us , mainly box players, but also a fiddle player, whistle, piano accordion , and concertina player, decided to get together to play a mixture of English, French dance, Scandinavian, some old times tunes, and those Irish tunes which translated well to DG boxes. We met in my house until there were too many of us and now we meet in the pub.
We have NO problem with Irish tunes as such, other than a) Irish sessions predominate often, even here in East Anglia, so are well catered for, and b) the very beautiful
tunes are fine but we have experienced many times our previous sessions being overtaken by two lovely guys , on mandolin and uillean pipes who would start at a cracking pace and get faster, with no one else being able to differentiate between the tunes. Hence it was generally a sign for a beer and toilet break!

I cannot apologise enough for the actions of my colonialising forebears..though I doubt very
much mine would have had any say in the matter, as is  sadly is becoming the case again
today... but I wish music forums would not become platforms for bashing cultures/
nationalities/ styles that you dont  agree with. On a folk music
thread on YouTube some time ago, a Scottish guy was holding me personally responsible for
the Highland Clearances, just sayin...
Title: Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
Post by: Theo on January 15, 2020, 06:15:52 PM
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