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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Dave Sawdon on March 17, 2020, 07:16:56 PM

Title: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Dave Sawdon on March 17, 2020, 07:16:56 PM
Not sure if this is the best pigeon hole to put this in, but hopefully the mods will move it if there's a better home.

In common with many here (I suspect) I run a local session, which I've had to cancel for the foreseeable future. As an ex-techie I'd like to explore whether any of the conference systems (the corporate ones as well as Whatsapp, Skype, AWS, etcetera) are suitable for using for an on-line session; the obvious problem being latency. Has anyone any experience, whether good or bad, that is relevant?
If all else fails I'll have to send-out recordings of me playing through the session tune list ..... and nobody deserves that to be inflicted on them!!

Edited to add: if some form of on-line session turns-out to be feasible I'd like to reserve the name "Folk in the Cloud"  ;)
Dave
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Peadar on March 17, 2020, 07:45:59 PM
Not sure if this is the best pigeon hole to put this in, but hopefully the mods will move it if there's a better home.

In common with many here (I suspect) I run a local session, which I've had to cancel for the foreseeable future. As an ex-techie I'd like to explore whether any of the conference systems (the corporate ones as well as Whatsapp, Skype, AWS, etcetera) are suitable for using for an on-line session; the obvious problem being latency. Has anyone any experience, whether good or bad, that is relevant?
If all else fails I'll have to send-out recordings of me playing through the session tune list ..... and nobody deserves that to be inflicted on them!!

Edited to add: if some form of on-line session turns-out to be feasible I'd like to reserve the name "Folk in the Cloud"  ;)
Dave

I was starting to think of something like that. But you got there first.
I was thinking of "Skype My Ceilidh / Skype Mo Cheilidh"  then it occurred to me that it might have to be a very slow and steady session. When I Skype in to meetings in Inverness from Port Righ the lag is such that I hear myself coming back through the mics at the other end abot a quarter second behind. Mind you that sort of lag can be heard between choir and congregation singing in a large church. So it may not be insurmountable. I like the idea.
Peadar
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Maggie on March 23, 2020, 08:16:13 AM
I am also interested in finding a way of playing together with a couple friends - they are in Scotland and I am in France.  I have been given some suggestions but being fairly illiterate about computers, I don’t know how to test them out......

If anyone can advise, I would be very grateful.  The suggestions are:
JamKazam; jammr; Jamulus and Ninjam

Maggie  :|||:
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 23, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
Our guitar player is recommending Zoom. Anyone tried it?
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: baz parkes on March 23, 2020, 12:02:37 PM
Our guitar player is recommending Zoom. Anyone tried it?

Not tried it but it does seem to be being used by a lot of the Face book folky community...if that can be said to be a recommendation...
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Gary P Chapin on March 23, 2020, 01:01:07 PM
My experience with Zoom and GoogleHangouts (if that's what it is still called), is that latency and delay issues make it awful to play in "real time". I am trying to find such a solution and am experimenting with Jamkazam this week. Will report back, soonest.

G
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: BradInNL on March 24, 2020, 01:15:55 AM
I haven’t used to zoom to play with other people but my daughter had her group music class (that usually takes place in person) on zoom yesterday morning and it was great for that purpose...I wonder if lagging might become an issue when 2 or more people are trying to play together, especially if 1 or more don’t have a great connection.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Pat McInnis on March 24, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
Our guitar player is recommending Zoom. Anyone tried it?

I tried Zoom the other day with a friend because it has a very short lag but it's still present and I think even slow tunes would sound muddled. It also highlights the individual speaking while quieting the rest of the group. Pretty sure quieting is a word. Long story short, it's a no-go for group playing.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: gmatkin on March 30, 2020, 09:01:34 PM
The usual apps for videoconferencing also have dreadful sound.

Cleanfeed is nice and clear sounding, but audio only and suffers from latency delays.

In conjunction with, say, Skype, I guess it might be a good option for a playaround or singaround.

You can record, also.

G

Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: IanD on March 30, 2020, 11:09:47 PM
The usual apps for videoconferencing also have dreadful sound.

Cleanfeed is nice and clear sounding, but audio only and suffers from latency delays.

In conjunction with, say, Skype, I guess it might be a good option for a playaround or singaround.

You can record, also.

G

Zoom is much better for instruments if you turn off the voice codec (advanced options under audio settings, enable original sound) -- see here...

https://youtu.be/50NoWIiYECA

Doesn't fix the latency problem but makes you sound less like a dalek in a dustbin ;-)
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Dave Sawdon on April 03, 2020, 12:16:04 PM
Has anyone tried Jamkazam yet? I'm dubious about it working across the web (rather than an intranet) because of all the server and transmission delays, but it would be great to have my doubts proved wrong. I won't hold my breath because Mr Google suggests that there hasn't been much discussion of it for several years and, if it worked, that would not be the case.

Dave
"Ya canna argue with the laws of physics, Jim"
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 03, 2020, 12:50:43 PM
Has anyone tried Jamkazam yet? I'm dubious about it working across the web (rather than an intranet) because of all the server and transmission delays, but it would be great to have my doubts proved wrong. I won't hold my breath because Mr Google suggests that there hasn't been much discussion of it for several years and, if it worked, that would not be the case.

Dave
"Ya can't argue with the laws of physics, Jim"

I know (knowledgeable) people who claim to have had success using it in the states and that it is the best available site for music sessions.
Support is very limited now, but it still functions. You need an ethernet connection for acceptable  latency (if you're not too fussy), not wireless. Easy to do. I am sorting out my own trial with a couple of friends.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Dave Sawdon on April 03, 2020, 01:36:34 PM
Thanks Greg, I look forward to hearing(!) the results. When do you think you can report back? FWIW the latest info on the Jamkazam website seems to date from 2014

I can report that (as expected) Zoom does not work for choirs, unless you count everyone collapsing into hysterical laughter as a success.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Winston Smith on April 04, 2020, 10:38:47 AM
"unless you count everyone collapsing into hysterical laughter as a success."

Seeing as this has been a recurring occurrence in my choir during the 50 odd years of my membership, I imagined that it was a quite normal feature.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Rick Fitzsimmons on April 20, 2020, 09:11:06 PM
We have been using Zoom for a couple of jams a week.  As noted by others, latency is a big problem when trying to play real-time.  What we are doing is the leader of the tune is unmuted and all others are muted.  It is not optimal but allows us to gather and play sort of together.  Some setting on Zoom help.  Use Original Sound, disable Suppress Persistent Background Noise and Suppress Intermittent Background Noise seems to be the best we can get.  Somehow, Zoom thinks that button accordions are background noise, can you imagine that?
Anyway, better than not getting together.
Cheers,
Rick
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Anahata on April 20, 2020, 11:19:13 PM
What we are doing is the leader of the tune is unmuted and all others are muted.

Yes, I'm in a regular singaround and a tune session that work that way.
The latest improvement has been to pipe the audio output from the laptop into an external amplifier and  decent pair of speakers. For users who have enabled "original sound" and turned off background noise / echo cancellation, it's almost as if they were in the room.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Gary P Chapin on April 21, 2020, 02:50:22 PM
That "original sound" thing is really important.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: boxcall on July 23, 2020, 03:53:02 PM
I was told about Jacktrip with connector jack claims it can solve latency issues?
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/jacktrip/
I have no idea if true.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: JohnAndy on July 23, 2020, 04:14:07 PM
An update about JamKazam - it was true a few months ago that they'd more or less stopped development and support for their service, but with the upsurge of interest in real-time online music sessions during lockdown, that has now changed.

They've been raising additional funding and have been working to improve their service (though sometimes this has meant that things have got broken due to ongoing development).

Anyway, I've been attending a couple of regular weekly JK sessions with two different groups of people, and in general it has been working pretty well. All of us prefer it to Zoom sessions anyway.

You really need a wired internet connection (not WiFi), an audio interface, microphone and headphones to get JK working properly. And you need to prepared to spend some time fiddling around with it to get it up and running.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: mselic on July 24, 2020, 12:24:36 AM
My experience with Zoom and GoogleHangouts (if that's what it is still called), is that latency and delay issues make it awful to play in "real time". I am trying to find such a solution and am experimenting with Jamkazam this week. Will report back, soonest.

G

I’ve done sessions with Zoom and real-time playing together doesn’t work for the very reasons Gary mentioned. A lot of other formats have been tried by several different organizers and they have yet to find one that works. Even with an excellent internet connection, there is a delay that is unavoidable. It just doesn’t work. As a result, online sessions are centred around one person playing while everyone else plays along at home with their microphones muted. The result is the person playing will only hear themselves, whereas anyone else playing along will hear themselves and the person leading the tune.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Blake on July 24, 2020, 11:07:42 PM
When my hockey-crazed mother developed Alzheimers, we have her some peace by playing Detroit Redwing Stanley Cup playoff games on loop on the DVD player.

Are there any good youtube session channels that posted well-recorded sessions that we could play along with?
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 24, 2020, 11:23:28 PM
My experience with Zoom and GoogleHangouts (if that's what it is still called), is that latency and delay issues make it awful to play in "real time". I am trying to find such a solution and am experimenting with Jamkazam this week. Will report back, soonest.

G

I’ve done sessions with Zoom and real-time playing together doesn’t work for the very reasons Gary mentioned. A lot of other formats have been tried by several different organizers and they have yet to find one that works. Even with an excellent internet connection, there is a delay that is unavoidable. It just doesn’t work. As a result, online sessions are centred around one person playing while everyone else plays along at home with their microphones muted. The result is the person playing will only hear themselves, whereas anyone else playing along will hear themselves and the person leading the tune.

I think JamKazam gets around a lot of issues and is the best working option at the moment. I just haven't been able to get first hand experience. My internet connection is slightly iffy 3G, as well, so I didn't try too hard.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: JohnAndy on July 25, 2020, 12:24:16 AM
Are there any good youtube session channels that posted well-recorded sessions that we could play along with?

You could try John Spiers Isolation Pub Sessions on Youtube. You'll find them easily enough if you search using that phrase.

The idea is that he puts up a recording of himself playing a set of tunes. People then record themselves playing along with him, send him the recordings, and he then puts up a composite version with everybody on it - which sounds a bit like a pub session!
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Blake on July 25, 2020, 03:43:42 AM
You could try John Spiers Isolation Pub Sessions on Youtube.
I will check it out!
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: CAB on July 25, 2020, 02:13:24 PM
Has anyone tried Jamulus?  I'm told it lies somewhere between Zoom and Jamkazam:

A little latency but bearable, much better than Zoom, though apparently it's best if people are only a few miles apart. 

Still best with an ethernet cable but less technically demanding than Jamkazam.  The article I read put me off a bit but then I'm really not too technically competent and didn't feel confident to handle the security aspects (holes in the firewall!).  I know people who are using it successfully for band practices and swear by it.

So I'm sticking with Zoom for now - a session and a couple of singarounds a week on the everyone-mutes-bar-the-singer/setleader basis.  Got a village band practice in a minute.  Two of us try to play as many of the parts as we can manage on two concertinas or baritone concertina plus melodeon so that the rest can play along.  Quite a work-out.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: JohnAndy on July 26, 2020, 02:01:55 AM
Has anyone tried Jamulus?

Yes, I tried Jamulus with one of the groups that I play with. We decided that it doesn't work as well as JamKazam - audio quality not so good and more problems with delays in hearing the sound.

So we abandoned Jamulus and we decided to stick with JamKazam, which works pretty well for us and allows us all to play simultaneously with (usually) quite tolerable levels of audio quality and lack of audio delays.

didn't feel confident to handle the security aspects (holes in the firewall!)

You only need to open a port through your firewall if you're going to run a Jamulus server. If you just want to give Jamulus a try then you don't necessarily need to do this. You can run the Jamulus client without doing any firewall changes. You'll then see a list of available servers that have been registered and are up and running. Typically you'll see that many of them are not currently in use. You and the people you want to play with can jump on one of those servers and have a test session to see if Jamulus is for you.

Of course if the owners of the server show up and want to use it, you should gracefully bow out. But I don't think you shouldn't feel any compunction about making use of someone else's server if it's not in use - it is after all their choice to register it, which makes it publicly available - they don't have to do that if they want it to be for their own private use only.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: James Fitton on November 17, 2020, 07:30:24 AM
Just reviving this thread in lockdown 2.0 (in England). After several months of attempting Zoom sessions with my band (in reality a series of strange one-way-mirror duets, although lovely for still keeping in touch with people) we decided to move our technology on a notch, and set ourselves up with the kit to work with Jamulus. We had our first session last night. It was a huge improvement - much better sound quality, barely perceptible latency, no stuttering, and (after the first half hour or so of familiarising ourselves with the controls) the ability to focus on the music rather than the tech. There is a bit of a "faff hurdle" to get over in terms of ensuring you have the right hardware set-up and in downloading Jamulus (which is free open-source) but that's a one-off hurdle. I'm a thoroughly untechy person and managed to set it up. So I can definitely recommend Jamulus.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Andy Next Tune on November 17, 2020, 10:20:30 AM
There is a bit of a "faff hurdle" to get over in terms of ensuring you have the right hardware set-up and in downloading Jamulus (which is free open-source) but that's a one-off hurdle. I'm a thoroughly untechy person and managed to set it up. So I can definitely recommend Jamulus.

Could you provide a quick summary of the kit you used/needed to get a 'decent' band sound with Jamulus?
Is it reliant on having high quality broadband?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Steve_freereeder on November 17, 2020, 10:51:22 AM
There is a bit of a "faff hurdle" to get over in terms of ensuring you have the right hardware set-up and in downloading Jamulus (which is free open-source) but that's a one-off hurdle. I'm a thoroughly untechy person and managed to set it up. So I can definitely recommend Jamulus.

Could you provide a quick summary of the kit you used/needed to get a 'decent' band sound with Jamulus?
Is it reliant on having high quality broadband?

Thanks.

Yes - I'd be interested to know too, please.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 17, 2020, 11:14:15 AM
I have had a number of posts from Jamkazam bragging about their new improved service. Anyone tried it recently?
It was the best I tried, back before we had some socially distanced back garden sessions.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: James Fitton on November 17, 2020, 11:52:33 AM
I should stress I may quickly reach the limits of my technical knowledge here, so this is simply a description of what I used, not a suggestion that nothing else will:


I have a Scarlett 2i2 Studio set-up from Focusrite. This is a 2-channel audio interface, with condenser microphone. It comes with headphones, but is compatible with other headphones too. The audio interface will take a standard jack-to-jack instrument lead for a direct signal, but we got better results just playing into the condenser microphone, and not bothering with any kind of instrument pick-up. The laptop then has a wired Ethernet connection to the internet, not just wifi, but I use a TP-link signal extender from my router, as it's not somewhere in my house I can easily play. That worked fine. (The Ethernet cable connects to the signal extender.)


That was it really. If anyone has different/better suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them!
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: James Fitton on November 17, 2020, 11:54:42 AM


Is it reliant on having high quality broadband?

I have a very basic domestic broadband package, nothing fancy at all.
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: CAB on November 17, 2020, 12:24:39 PM
Chris Timson of concertina.info wrote an article which can be previewed and bought for £1 here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/setting-using-jamulus (https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/setting-using-jamulus)
Title: Re: Real-time on-line music sessions
Post by: Rick St. John on November 17, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
I had a look at setting up Jamulus but abandoned it in the end. The software is straightforward but the hardware requirements are rather hefty. Just having to use a wired network connection rather than wifi would scare away most of the group I play with
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