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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Medleyitis on October 13, 2009, 05:08:38 PM

Title: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 13, 2009, 05:08:38 PM
Hello everyone,

Background Info:
I'm new to the forum and to diatonic melodeons/acccordions in general, but would really like to buy my first one, to begin learning how to play, and join in the fun.

Since I can only afford make one purchase at this time, I'd like to make the right decision as to whether to start off with a 2-row or a 3-row.

From your forum and other sources, I'm beginning to get the sense that playing a 2-row is more than simply "one more row than a 1-row, one less than a 3-row", and that playing a 3-row is more than simply "one more row than a 2-row". In other words, I'm getting the sense that each is its own animal, so to speak, but I'd like to know in what way.

My interest is in playing various styles of folk music, including but not limited to Polish, Swedish, Dutch, English, Irish, French, American, and Canadian Maritimes. As you can see, my interests are general, and I haven't pinned it down yet.

My Question:
I don't want to sound uninformed (which I am) or naive (which I may be), but can anyone explain the advantages/disadvantages of a 2-row vs. a 3-row?

Any thoughts? Your input will be much appreciated. Thank you.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: GbH on October 13, 2009, 05:28:08 PM
Before anything else, I think you need to state whether you're thinking of getting a 'quint' box (like, say, a D/G) or a semitone box (e.g. B/C).  Your question applies to both, but the answers might be very different, depending on the system you choose.

Also, if it were a quint box, you'll need to differentiate between having a third row that's tuned to the next logical key (say, like a A/D/G) or whether the row will be there to mainly provide accidentals.  If it's the later, then a 2.5 row instrument is also worth considering.

Obviously, more buttons = more choice.  But what sort of choice is it that you need?  Melodeons are always destined to be limited in one way or another, so it does seem to come down to making the best compromise for your own situation.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: HallelujahAl on October 13, 2009, 06:21:29 PM
As GbH says, you'll need to define which tuning system you want first before any advice can properly be tendered. Also you may wish to think about how much weight you're prepared to lug about - and whether there are any teachers of your preferred system in your area? In addition of course to suitablity to the kind of music you want to play.

For what it's worth I think that a 2 row quint box (C/F, G/C, D/G or similar) is a perfectly suitable box for most folk styles that I've come across - except of course Irish & Scottish where a semi-toned box is much more useful (in which case I'd recommend a B/C or three row BCC# box with stradella bass).

I also play a 3 row quint box and love it - it really opens up some musical possibilities for me - but I'm glad I started on 2 row, imho a 2 row is the best system to start on. Others will differ I'm sure - but that's my 2p. Hope this helps.
AL
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Theo on October 13, 2009, 06:22:25 PM

My interest is in playing various styles of folk music, including but not limited to Polish, Swedish, Dutch, English, Irish, French, American, and Canadian Maritimes. As you can see, my interests are general, and I haven't pinned it down yet.


Remember that even a three row is a limited instrument, so you won't find one box that will make a good job of playing all these styles of music.  So my suggestion is to first pick your favourite type of folk music from the list above, and then choose the appropriate box.

For example some typical types of boxes are(and there are many exceptions):

Polish - don't know
Swedish - two row G/C
Dutch two row C/F
Irish two row - B/C or C#/D
English two row D/G
French two row G/C or 3 row G/C/accidentals
American - depends which bit of American!
Canadian - Quebec 1 row or 3 row don't know about other areas.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: LJC on October 13, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
3 row benefits: there are more notes, which extend the variety and ease of keys you can play in.

3 row disadvantages: there are more notes, which means more wrong notes to play.

Sorry, being flippant!

Don't discount the 2 1/2 row or 1 1/2 row boxes available, as depending on your preferred style, you might find something there which is very useful. If you have a search across the boards there are loads of topics regarding the relative merits of different systems. If you have a read up you'll probably be baffled by some of the discussions, which is probably a good time to ask us!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: craigus on October 13, 2009, 09:08:28 PM
I'd say a two-row would be the best starter choice.
It may seem like a one-row is a simpler option for a beginner, but that's not really the case - it's great for certain styles and types of music (cajun, quebecois etc), but it's limited in its keys, and in bass accompaniment. Besides, all the tunes you can play on a one-row you can also play on a two-row (in more keys!), plus you've got extra basses to experiment with and the fun of playing across the rows.
You get all this and more on a three or 2.5 row, but you also get a heavier and sometimes slower instrument.
I think a two-row will give you years of pleasure before you even need to start considering a three-row.
I've only ever played quint (D/G, C/F etc), so can't advise on semitone boxes.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 13, 2009, 09:13:50 PM
My thanks to GbH, HallelujahAl, Theo, LJC, and Craigus for all your input and feedback. I am reasonably sure that I would prefer a two row quint box or three row quint box (with the next logical key, not accidentals) and not a semitone box. Theo, thanks further for your breakdown of rows and keys for each type.

Since I anticipate that sooner or later I would like to play in both systems (that is, 2-row and 3-row), as most of you seem to, I was just wondering whether it was easier/more intuitive to start first with 2-row and then learn 3-row or vice versa, or does it depend on the individual player? While I was typing, Craigus, I think you've just helped to answer this latest question of mine!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 13, 2009, 11:45:21 PM
All good advice so far.

I would add my 2p-worth and say in my opinion, a 2-row instrument in D/G, G/C or C/F (the so-called, but inaccurately described 'quint boxes) is best for a beginner. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned so far is your own particular location - you do not give this. A country would be useful to know. Melodeons are sociable instruments, and much learning and progress can be made playing along with others in workshops and sessions. But you need to ensure that you get the same tuning as most of the other people you are likely to come into contact with. In England and Wales, it will be a D/G box; in France most people play a G/C, in Germany and the Netherlands it is usually C/F. In the USA it is D/G or G/C (I think).  For semitone-tuned boxes, in Scotland, the B/C or three row BCC# is common, in Ireland B/C or C#/D.

In the list of traditional styles which you mention, just about all of them can be played on a D/G instrument.

As for the number of rows, 3-row instruments are definitely larger and heavier than the 2-rows. One-row instruments are not recommended for beginners; they are rather specialist boxes and require a specific technique.

Go for the 2-row, as mentioned in the opening sentence.  Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: nfldbox on October 14, 2009, 12:47:10 AM
As to Canada, the "tradition" in the maritimes and Newfoundland varied. You'll see a lot of three row Rossis, Hohners of almost any sort, people hammering out very similar music on GCF or ADG boxes.  But today the people who are playing seriously are playing either one rows, almost always in D, or BC or C#D two rows.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 14, 2009, 02:14:38 AM
I extend my thanks to Steve and Nfldbox for weighing in with their helpful feedback. Steve, I'm located in Connecticut, USA, and to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much in the way of a social network for playing diatonics in my neck of the woods, aside from live music nights at Irish pubs in the region. Perhaps once I acquire one and begin learning how to play, I may find some kindred spirits to share the learning process with, but I have a feeling I'll be learning mostly on my own.

And judging by what I've viewed on YouTube so far, I am surprised at the large number of traditional melodeon/accordion players in the Maritimes! At least, compared to New England, anyway. I'm envious, Nfldbox!

In any event, it seems the consensus so far is leaning in favor of beginning on a 2-row. I'm grateful to one and all for your comments and suggestions. Thanks again.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Chris Ryall on October 14, 2009, 07:40:04 AM
Yup, start with a 2 row and follow your musical inclinations. The marker for second hand boxes is quite boyant and when you move on you may get 2/3 or so of what you paid.

3 rows are quite heavy and 3 rows with 3 voices particularly so.  That is to say a lot of a melodeon's weight is in the reeds. Against that if you learn to play a 3 row in enough keys you only need one box.

Not quite on topic, but ..D/G  or other key?  Well it depends who you play with but the standard British D/G has an important limitation in that the upper half od the keyboard is vary 'tinny' in sound. As a result most D/G carriers, myself included only use the lower end of the keyboard.

That's frankly a waste and (on my second G/C now) I've found use of the upper half, with dips to the lower for bass run effects really refreshing.  Against that most of the English repertoire has more awkward fingering.

.. so it depends what you want to do. On balance I'd say get a mid range D/G, experiment and progress. If you paly 'European' a C/G is more sensible and has that lovely tone in A minor.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 14, 2009, 09:02:42 AM
Steve, I'm located in Connecticut, USA, and to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much in the way of a social network for playing diatonics in my neck of the woods, aside from live music nights at Irish pubs in the region. Perhaps once I acquire one and begin learning how to play, I may find some kindred spirits to share the learning process with, but I have a feeling I'll be learning mostly on my own.
I've only been to New England once and that was a good few years ago, to the Marlborough Morris Ale in Vermont. But while I was there, I met with quite a few morris and other dance teams from Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. So one route to find other melodeon players could be to contact some morris sides and see if you can get in touch with their musicians (who will almost certainly include melodeon players) and see what and where your local traditional music 'scene' is.

Another option is to contact an acquaintance of mine: Jody Kruskal. He is based in NYC and plays anglo concertina for dance teams and bands and will very likely know of melodeon players in your area. His contact details are on his website.
http://JodyKruskal.com
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Howard Jones on October 14, 2009, 02:33:38 PM
You've just missed the North East Squeeze In held each year in Massachusetts:

http://www.buttonbox.com/s-i.html (http://www.buttonbox.com/s-i.html)

I've no personal experience of it myself, as I'm in (old) England, but many people on concertina.net speak enthusiastically about it.  It seems to cater for all species of squeezeboxes.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 14, 2009, 04:41:16 PM
chrisryall: Thanks for your helpful feedback and particularly your tip on the sound of the D/G's upper half of the keyboard compared to a G/C. Interesting.

Steve: Thanks for weighing in again with more of your suggestions. I had no idea there is a Morris presence in VT, CT, MA, and NY. I'll have to look into that further.

Howard: Yes, I've read about the Squeeze In, which I've just missed. I guess I was under the mistaken impression it leaned heavily towards concertina. I too have heard good things about The Button Box, and have been planning a trip up there for a while now. I think it's only a couple of hours or so away, and I'm looking forward to checking out some models and configurations, hands-on.

Thanks again, everyone, for your continued helpful comments. Much obliged.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: ganderbox on October 14, 2009, 09:40:42 PM
3 rows are quite heavy and 3 rows with 3 voices particularly so.  That is to say a lot of a melodeon's weight is in the reeds. Against that if you learn to play a 3 row in enough keys you only need one box.


Yes, I'm surprised nobody else mentioned the size/weight factor. Although there are a few fairly small 3 row boxes around, in general a 2 row is lighter and more manageable. It is also a lot easier on the brain to only have 2 rows of buttons (and 8 basses rather than 12) to think about.
The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are to enable you to play in more keys (which doesn't matter if you aren't playing much with other people) and/or to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).
 
I'd also agree with Chris that, if you don't need to worry too much about what keys other people are playing in, it makes more sense to get a G/C (or an A/D) where the whole keyboard is useable, even with a 2 voice box.

If you subsequently move on to a bigger box, you may still decide it is worth keeping a smaller one for the occasions when you don't want to be carrying a heavy box around.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 14, 2009, 11:41:13 PM
ganderbox: Thank you for your explanations in favor of a 2-row. As long as you brought up the bass keys, may I ask a follow-up question?

I've viewed the keyboard layout diagrams elsewhere on melodeon.net but am puzzled about something...

Why do the bass keys of a D/G box feature a C bass/C chord on both the push and pull, when there doesn't seem to be a way of playing in C on the push on the treble keys? (Similarly, on a G/C box, there is an F bass/F chord on both the push and pull.)

Why allow for a C bass/C chord (D/G box) and F bass/F Chord (G/C box) on the push? I don't seem to get it. Am I missing something that will only be apparent to me once I get my hands on one and play for myself?

Thanks again for your comments.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Theo on October 15, 2009, 08:52:51 AM
The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).


Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  :o in a D/G box)

So to return to the topic I'd say yes start with a 3 row if its the box of choice for the style you particularly want to learn, otherwise go with a two row.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: ganderbox on October 15, 2009, 11:37:25 AM
The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).


Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  :o in a D/G box)


I didn't mean that a beginner shouldn't be crossrowing, but there are ample opportunities to do this on a 2 row box without the added complication of an extra row.
I'd say it's best to master the 2 row, (including playing in different keys and cross-rowing) then build on that with a 2.5 or 3 row.


Why do the bass keys of a D/G box feature a C bass/C chord on both the push and pull, when there doesn't seem to be a way of playing in C on the push on the treble keys? (Similarly, on a G/C box, there is an F bass/F chord on both the push and pull.)

Why allow for a C bass/C chord (D/G box) and F bass/F Chord (G/C box) on the push? I don't seem to get it. Am I missing something that will only be apparent to me once I get my hands on one and play for myself?



Has anybody got a good answer to this one? I must admit that I don't use that C bass on the push very much, at least not that I can think of.  You can use it if you are playing in C major (although mostly you need the one on the pull), and also to play in D minor, but I can't think of much else.

Some boxes, including clubs, have (in D/G terms) an F on the push instead of a C.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: LJC on October 15, 2009, 12:12:02 PM
The way it see it the C gives you a nice drone you can use - because it doesn't really fit with all the notes you get a nice dissonance which automatically resolves its self when you hit a note which harmonises more pleasingly with C. The C chord (CEG) works over any of those notes - you have lots of G pushes where you can use it.

Prime example - play 'Rose Tree' in G (you need a low B to play it in the lower octave) and when it comes back to the G note in the 3rd bar hit the C on the push.

Also, where you have an F note on the push (often G row first button) it means you can use the C chord over the F note when playing in the key of C or Am (try it starting on the pull C or A on the G row), or just as a passing chord for any tunes which use the F as a chromatic note.

The push F chord on a DG can also be used to good effect with the club system as it gives you a Dm chord on the push with the D bass and F chord. Swings and roundabouts as with any melodeon layout.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Bob Ellis on October 15, 2009, 04:05:08 PM
The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).


Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  :o in a D/G box)

So to return to the topic I'd say yes start with a 3 row if its the box of choice for the style you particularly want to learn, otherwise go with a two row.

I agree with Theo on this. Having begun playing two-row boxes and having converted exclusively now to three-row boxes, I wish I had begun on a three-row. Although I played cross-row style from the start, the pattern of notes on the D and G rows became so deeply ingrained that when I transferred to three-row boxes it took me years to adjust to the patterns that would enable me to make adequate use of the third row.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: ganderbox on October 15, 2009, 05:46:04 PM

Having begun playing two-row boxes and having converted exclusively now to three-row boxes, I wish I had begun on a three-row.

But when you started playing, would you have known what sort of 3 row you would eventually want to play? Even if you had started on a 3 row, say an A/D/G, you would still have some learning and relearning to do to play your customised Benny.

Surely playing a 3 row which consists of a D/G plus another row (whether it's accidentals or an A row) doesn't mean you have to unlearn the patterns you learnt on a 2 row, it just means you have more options, and therefore more to learn to build on what you already know. At least if you start on a 2 row it's less daunting, and when you come to get a 3 row (if you do), you will have some idea of what you want it to do to allow you to progress in your chosen direction.

You may even decide that you don't actually want a three-row at all!!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: LeFonque on October 15, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
My experience is that a 2 row is a better place to start.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: GbH on October 15, 2009, 11:15:06 PM
I've just thought of a couple of other factors which may help (or confuse) you further.

Firstly, think about your own previous experience of playing music, should you have any.  If you're already accustomed to playing a chromatic instrument, I think you're likely to miss the extra notes an extra row can provide.  Maybe I'm an odd case, but I started 'needing' a step up from my two-row after only a couple of months from starting (on my first 'proper' melodeon, at least).  Thinking back, it seemed easier to have the 'missing' notes available from outset, rather than finding ways of getting around their absence.  There again, maybe I was being over-ambitious in terms of what I was expecting to play?  Or maybe it was just an early onset of MAD?  On the other hand, I suspect someone for whom the box is their first instrument is less likely to think like this.

As far as differing techniques goes, there didn't seem much difference in terms of basic technique when moving to a 2 row to a 2.5 row.  Sure, there were more possibilities, but the basic approach remained the same.  I suspect that if I moved to a 3 row of the "2 row + accidentals" type, the situation would be much the same, also.  I'd still fundamentally think of it as having two main rows on which to play.  On the other hand, when I've watched some videos of Mexican and German players who use multi-row instruments as standard (not of the " + accidentals" type), they seem to use a fingering technique that seems fundamentally tailored to that sort of instrument, with lots of crossing of all available rows even when playing straightforward keys.  To play in this way, I'm assuming that it would be essential to start with such an instrument from the outset.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 15, 2009, 11:38:41 PM
Theo, ganderbox, Bob, and LeFonque: Thank you again for your additional thoughts on this. The consensus has now shifted slightly to an equilibirum as a result, but you all make very goods points in favor of both 2-row and 3-row. If it were possible to learn both systems at a time (as an absolute beginner), perhaps that might be the way to go. If I could afford to buy one of each, that is...
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 15, 2009, 11:44:37 PM
The way it see it the C gives you a nice drone you can use - because it doesn't really fit with all the notes you get a nice dissonance which automatically resolves its self when you hit a note which harmonises more pleasingly with C. The C chord (CEG) works over any of those notes - you have lots of G pushes where you can use it.

Prime example - play 'Rose Tree' in G (you need a low B to play it in the lower octave) and when it comes back to the G note in the 3rd bar hit the C on the push.

Also, where you have an F note on the push (often G row first button) it means you can use the C chord over the F note when playing in the key of C or Am (try it starting on the pull C or A on the G row), or just as a passing chord for any tunes which use the F as a chromatic note.

The push F chord on a DG can also be used to good effect with the club system as it gives you a Dm chord on the push with the D bass and F chord. Swings and roundabouts as with any melodeon layout.

Aha! Thank you, LJC, I knew there had to be an angle to it! Of course! A dissonant drone that, by the book, wouldn't be called for, but in the hands of a diatonic player, at the right moment, would still sound interesting. Now, finally, the "C bass (D/G box) and F bass (G/c box) on the push" puzzle makes some sense. Thanks again.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 15, 2009, 11:56:23 PM
I've just thought of a couple of other factors which may help (or confuse) you further.

Firstly, think about your own previous experience of playing music, should you have any.  If you're already accustomed to playing a chromatic instrument, I think you're likely to miss the extra notes an extra row can provide.  Maybe I'm an odd case, but I started 'needing' a step up from my two-row after only a couple of months from starting (on my first 'proper' melodeon, at least).  Thinking back, it seemed easier to have the 'missing' notes available from outset, rather than finding ways of getting around their absence.  There again, maybe I was being over-ambitious in terms of what I was expecting to play?  Or maybe it was just an early onset of MAD?  On the other hand, I suspect someone for whom the box is their first instrument is less likely to think like this.


Thank you, GbH, you've raised a very interesting point. I do have some experience playing a chromatic instrument (from when I was a boy), and as such, I would not be learning to play a 2-row or 3-row from a totally blank slate, so to speak. If anything, in the back of my mind, I've been wondering whether my previous experience might be as much of a hindrance as a help. In that sense, who knows, I may find myself missing the extra notes of a third row as you did, or perhaps not. But it's certainly food for thought. One thing I am sure of, though, whether a 2-row or 3-row, I am very much looking forward to learning either system. I envy you experienced players who know your way around either system!

Thanks again to all of you for your support!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: george garside on October 16, 2009, 08:58:42 AM
[ ).

[/quote]

 

I agree with Theo on this. Having begun playing two-row boxes and having converted exclusively now to three-row boxes, I wish I had begun on a three-row. Although I played cross-row style from the start, the pattern of notes on the D and G rows became so deeply ingrained that when I transferred to three-row boxes it took me years to adjust to the patterns that would enable me to make adequate use of the third row.
[/quote]

This problem just does not occur when progrogressing from BC to BCC#  - the 3rd row just makes tricky bits easier ( and also means you can play in the flat keys without any furthur learning!  I can never see the logic in a a3 row DG plus odds & sods either stick to a simple light DG or consider the chromatic boxes.

george ;D
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Owen Woods on October 16, 2009, 02:05:21 PM

Thank you, GbH, you've raised a very interesting point. I do have some experience playing a chromatic instrument (from when I was a boy), and as such, I would not be learning to play a 2-row or 3-row from a totally blank slate, so to speak. If anything, in the back of my mind, I've been wondering whether my previous experience might be as much of a hindrance as a help. In that sense, who knows, I may find myself missing the extra notes of a third row as you did, or perhaps not. But it's certainly food for thought. One thing I am sure of, though, whether a 2-row or 3-row, I am very much looking forward to learning either system. I envy you experienced players who know your way around either system!

Thanks again to all of you for your support!

It depends on who you are and what music you will be playing and in what context. For playing Morris, in ceilidhs or in sessions a D/G box is not actually that limiting. I can understand why people play a 2.5 or a three row odds and sods, as it improves fluency playing in the main keys and expands what keys you can play in easily in a few directions (i.e. makes playing in A,E,B,C a lot easier). If you feel the need to play in other keys (which of course aren't played in the vast majority of sessions) then you need a chromatic, probably a BCC#.

Over the past few years, if it helps, my dream box has varied massively. I've kept on playing and being happy playing my D/G though ;D
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: bagaspuds on October 16, 2009, 04:40:15 PM
damien connelly in fairfield ct has written a book with a dvd which is exceptional
for the beginner on BC and you can find him at www.damienconnolly.com
Also, check out www.chiffandfipple.com and look in the message board section for
the forum section under free reeds for a lot of good info.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 17, 2009, 06:22:20 AM

This problem just does not occur when progrogressing from BC to BCC#  - the 3rd row just makes tricky bits easier ( and also means you can play in the flat keys without any furthur learning!  I can never see the logic in a a3 row DG plus odds & sods either stick to a simple light DG or consider the chromatic boxes.

george ;D

Thanks for weighing in, George. From the get-go, I've been fairly sure that it'll be either a 2-row or a 3-row, not a 2.5 or 3 with odds and sods.


It depends on who you are and what music you will be playing and in what context. For playing Morris, in ceilidhs or in sessions a D/G box is not actually that limiting. I can understand why people play a 2.5 or a three row odds and sods, as it improves fluency playing in the main keys and expands what keys you can play in easily in a few directions (i.e. makes playing in A,E,B,C a lot easier). If you feel the need to play in other keys (which of course aren't played in the vast majority of sessions) then you need a chromatic, probably a BCC#.

Over the past few years, if it helps, my dream box has varied massively. I've kept on playing and being happy playing my D/G though ;D

Thanks, ukebert. Rest assured, I don't think I'll want or need to play in any keys other than the comfort zone that'll be found on my future 2 or 3 row box!

damien connelly in fairfield ct has written a book with a dvd which is exceptional
for the beginner on BC and you can find him at www.damienconnolly.com
Also, check out www.chiffandfipple.com and look in the message board section for
the forum section under free reeds for a lot of good info.

Thanks, bagaspuds, for the tip and the links. To the extent I was planning on learning Irish tunes, it would be on a D/G, A/D/G, G/C, or G/C/F and not on a B/C box. I've been the Gaelic-American Club in Fairfield, though, on their live music nights! They look at me funny when I order a Budweiser instead of a Guinness, though!  (:)
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Wurdal on October 18, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
In an ideal world I would have started learning the B/C/C# box at an early age with lessons and hopefully I would have been a virtuoso at a relatively young age! Like probably lots of other people on this forum I picked up the melodeon at the age of 32 having messed around with guitar for a number of years. Looking at this with my limited musical knowledge and in the context of the British Isles I would make the following points (which might just reflect my experience and have no great validity).

1. The B/C/C# box is fully chromatic. It has a piano accordion bass layout. You can play a melody line and the appropriate bass. It has the push pull characteristics of the melodeon. On the other hand this layout seems to be the preserve of Scottish musicians and I wonder about the availability of tutors or written instruction manuals for this layout elsewhere. There might be developments that I do not know about.

2. The B/C box is also chromatic and Irish players produce stunning music on it. However for me the beauty of playing the melodeon is the ability to produce a melody with a chords. In short I don't just want a melody instrument.

3. The D/G box is limited in the keys it can play in  and also in the chords that are available. However I think that it is more intuitive to the late developer. It is easier to knock out tunes with a chord accompaniment in a shorter space of time. There is are good basic self tutors available as well as a lot of other players to tap into. There is also a wealth of music which is playable on this instrument which would keep the average player going for a lifetime and this can cover English, Irish, Scottish, Northumbrian music and more in the keys of A, D and G.

Quite often there is a lot of debate on this forum about diatonic vs. chromatic. However some important questions are not to do with how the box is set up. Some of the important issues can be what age are you when you take up the instrument? How much practice do you intend to put in per day? What sort of music do you want to play? Does it have to be in the genuine style or will you be happy just playing the tunes (in your own style)? Are you happy playing in a limited number of keys (but with an almost unlimited number of tunes available to you)?

As someone who has played for around 25 years (with interventions from life) I realise the amount of time and effort put in to reach a moderate level which I think is sometimes underestimated. For the late starter I would probably go with the D/G.

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 19, 2009, 04:35:15 AM
Thank you, mackem, for taking the time to share your thoughts not only in favor of D/G but on other related systems as well. Coming from a chromatic instrument background already (well, in my boyhood at least), my intention now is not necessarily to get as chromatic as possible, but rather to learn a new (new for me, that is) and challenging way to play traditional folk music of various kinds. And so, as such, I don't think I would be leaning towards a B/C or B/C/C# setup. For the kind of music I have in mind, a D/G, A/D/G, G/C, G/C/F would pretty much do the trick. Being in my mid-middle age years, I am definitely a late starter in this, but I'd like to think I will be appreciating all the more whatever level of proficiency I reach. I'm looking forward to it! Thanks again for your time, thoughts, and support. Much obliged.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 19, 2009, 09:53:58 AM
.....For the kind of music I have in mind, a D/G, A/D/G, G/C, G/C/F would pretty much do the trick.
I would hazard a guess quite a proportion of the music you have in mind will be in the keys of D and G with rare excursions into A. On a G/C or G/C/F box playing in D is definitely not so easy and A is even more awkward.

So that leaves your choices being either a two-row D/G or a three-row A/D/G.
The three-row box will be heavier, more expensive and possibly harder to obtain than the equivalent quality two-row D/G.
So - once again, go for the two-row D/G. It is relatively light, small and manageable. You will learn heaps on it and should you eventually feel the need to upgrade to a three-row box, you can do that later.

Quote
Being in my mid-middle age years, I am definitely a late starter in this, but I'd like to think I will be appreciating all the more whatever level of proficiency I reach. I'm looking forward to it! Thanks again for your time, thoughts, and support. Much obliged.
You've had a lot of advice, most of which is pointing you towards the two-row D/G. I'd say that the time for questions is just about over. Now it's time for action. Go get yourself a box. A Hohner pokerwork would be a good choice, but there are other makes too. But please don't get a Scarlatti. Others might disagree with me, but in my experience they are cheap and nasty and only suitable for firewood.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Bob Ellis on October 19, 2009, 02:18:41 PM
So that leaves your choices being either a two-row D/G or a three-row A/D/G.
The three-row box will be heavier, more expensive and possibly harder to obtain than the equivalent quality two-row D/G.

While I agree with Steve that starting with a D/G two-row and then moving on to a three-row if you feel the need/desire at a later date is a sensible way to go, the weight of a three-row box should not be much of an issue as there are some good small (and therefore light) three-row boxes around, of which the Castagnari Benny is a good example.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Theo on October 19, 2009, 02:57:33 PM
So that leaves your choices being either a two-row D/G or a three-row A/D/G.
The three-row box will be heavier, more expensive and possibly harder to obtain than the equivalent quality two-row D/G.

While I agree with Steve that starting with a D/G two-row and then moving on to a three-row if you feel the need/desire at a later date is a sensible way to go, the weight of a three-row box should not be much of an issue as there are some good small (and therefore light) three-row boxes around, of which the Castagnari Benny is a good example.

And there is the three row Hohner Compadre, remarkable value for money, and cheaper than the Hohner two rows.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: nemethmik on October 19, 2009, 02:59:58 PM
For the kind of music I have in mind, a D/G, A/D/G, G/C, G/C/F would pretty much do the trick. Being in my mid-middle age years, I am definitely a late starter in this, but I'd like to think I will be appreciating all the more whatever level of proficiency I reach.
I am in a very similar situation: I've already have a B/C box, a C Cajun box and for about a month a C/G accordion. Definitely my favorite is the "Quint-box". The B/C did not work for me. My next accordion will be definitely an A/D/G (my only dilemma is two- or three-voice). I prefer cross-row playing and I think an A/D/G gives much more possibility to avoid heavy push-pull sequences when playing tunes upto speed. Miki
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 19, 2009, 05:20:21 PM
My thanks again to Steve, Bob, Theo, and Miklos, for your latest feedback, support, and encouragement. It is very much appreciated.


You've had a lot of advice...I'd say that the time for questions is just about over. Now it's time for action. Go get yourself a box.


Amen to that! I was beginning to think the very same thing! Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in since I first posted.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Andy in Vermont on October 20, 2009, 02:48:47 PM
I prefer cross-row playing and I think an A/D/G gives much more possibility to avoid heavy push-pull sequences when playing tunes upto speed.

As a player of both 3-row and one-row boxes in a style in which speed is a major element, I think that this "speed" reason for cross-rowing (or using multi-row boxes) only applies for beginners -- once you have worked on press/draw bellows technique, you should be able to play "up to speed" on one row.  There are good reasons to play cross-row (chords and smoothness among them), but when speed is the issue, my concern is that a beginner may cut him-or-herself off from learning better bellows/air-button technique -- playing on one-row with determination and grit should provide excellent lessons in this.  If you have doubts about playing press/draw quickly on one row, then don't just take my word for it: Listen to some Quebecois players -- I recommend Raynald Ouellet's excellent solo album; or check out Brendan Begley if Irish playing is your aim.
-Andy
P.S. as for the original poster, I think that A/D/G would be an excellent choice.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: michik on October 20, 2009, 03:07:42 PM
A little detail which I have found a bit puzzling in the beginning is the fact, that - for example - a G/C/F 3-row accordeon
is in fact a 2-row C/F accordeon extended with a G row and additional 4 basses instead of a 2-row G/C extended with a F row
A  D/G/C 3 row would be nice, but I have never seen such a thing ...

An A/D/G is nice, you can play it like a 2-row D/G
but for those who are used to G/C there is no 3-row equivalent like an A/D/G for D/G players,
or a G/C/F for C/F.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: ganderbox on October 20, 2009, 05:45:00 PM
I think that the reason why you don't get D/G/C tunings might be something to do with the pitch.
If the G & C rows were in normal G/C pitch, the D row would be very low. If the D & G rows were in D/G pitch, the C row would be very squeeky.
If you think of the keys used for A/D/Gs and G/C/Fs, they cover the whole range of pitches used in the more popular tunings, ie the G on the outside row of a G/C being the lowest, and the G on the inside row of a D/G being the highest.

When I got my G/C + accidentals, I had a moment when I thought I should have got a G/C/F, but then I realized that you miss out on some of the basses which are so nice when you're playing G/C.

It would be nice if you could design a box that was like a G/C and a D/G stuck together, but I'm not sure how you would do it.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 20, 2009, 10:10:24 PM
I prefer cross-row playing and I think an A/D/G gives much more possibility to avoid heavy push-pull sequences when playing tunes upto speed.

As a player of both 3-row and one-row boxes in a style in which speed is a major element, I think that this "speed" reason for cross-rowing (or using multi-row boxes) only applies for beginners -- once you have worked on press/draw bellows technique, you should be able to play "up to speed" on one row.  There are good reasons to play cross-row (chords and smoothness among them), but when speed is the issue, my concern is that a beginner may cut him-or-herself off from learning better bellows/air-button technique -- playing on one-row with determination and grit should provide excellent lessons in this.  If you have doubts about playing press/draw quickly on one row, then don't just take my word for it: Listen to some Quebecois players -- I recommend Raynald Ouellet's excellent solo album; or check out Brendan Begley if Irish playing is your aim.
-Andy
P.S. as for the original poster, I think that A/D/G would be an excellent choice.


Thanks again, Andy. Now that's the kind of inside information I knew I'd get from you forum experts. More smoothness from cross-row playing on a 3-row, but learning better bellows/air-button technique from a 2-row. Very interesting. More food for thought...
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 20, 2009, 10:18:38 PM
I think that the reason why you don't get D/G/C tunings might be something to do with the pitch.
If the G & C rows were in normal G/C pitch, the D row would be very low. If the D & G rows were in D/G pitch, the C row would be very squeeky.
If you think of the keys used for A/D/Gs and G/C/Fs, they cover the whole range of pitches used in the more popular tunings, ie the G on the outside row of a G/C being the lowest, and the G on the inside row of a D/G being the highest.

When I got my G/C + accidentals, I had a moment when I thought I should have got a G/C/F, but then I realized that you miss out on some of the basses which are so nice when you're playing G/C.

It would be nice if you could design a box that was like a G/C and a D/G stuck together, but I'm not sure how you would do it.

Thanks again for your thoughts, ganderbox. You've shed some additional (and important) light for me. I had assumed that a G/C/F was in fact a G/C with the F row added, and that the A/D/G was simply a D/G with the A row added. In other words, I had assumed that in an A/D/G or a G/C/F you would be getting a two-for-one, namely, that you would also be getting a D/G or G/C built in, but I now know it doesn't quite work that way.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 20, 2009, 10:24:13 PM
A little detail which I have found a bit puzzling in the beginning is the fact, that - for example - a G/C/F 3-row accordeon
is in fact a 2-row C/F accordeon extended with a G row and additional 4 basses instead of a 2-row G/C extended with a F row
A  D/G/C 3 row would be nice, but I have never seen such a thing ...

An A/D/G is nice, you can play it like a 2-row D/G
but for those who are used to G/C there is no 3-row equivalent like an A/D/G for D/G players,
or a G/C/F for C/F.


Thanks, michik, for helping to clear up my misconception about 3-row boxes. And again, thanks to all forum members who've responded with your thoughts and expertise!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: nemethmik on October 21, 2009, 04:58:49 PM
I prefer cross-row playing and I think an A/D/G gives much more possibility to avoid heavy push-pull sequences when playing tunes upto speed.

As a player of both 3-row and one-row boxes in a style in which speed is a major element, I think that this "speed" reason for cross-rowing (or using multi-row boxes) only applies for beginners -- once you have worked on press/draw bellows technique, you should be able to play "up to speed" on one row.  There are good reasons to play cross-row (chords and smoothness among them), but when speed is the issue, my concern is that a beginner may cut him-or-herself off from learning better bellows/air-button technique -- playing on one-row with determination and grit should provide excellent lessons in this.  If you have doubts about playing press/draw quickly on one row, then don't just take my word for it: Listen to some Quebecois players -- I recommend Raynald Ouellet's excellent solo album; or check out Brendan Begley if Irish playing is your aim.
-Andy
Andy,
I agree completely and I am very happy that you posted your comment; I wanted to discuss it a number of times on this great forum. I am (nearly) sure that I (and possibly many of us less talented musicians) will never be able to learn proper bellows press/draw techniques to play up-to-speed on one row. I am simply not talented enough to learn with a reasonable amount of efforts/practicing. I think a major reason of the emergence of the popularity of Piano Accordions or Continental Chromatic Button Accordions is that their bellows techniques are much-much easier to learn than the push/draw (single row) boxes. IMHO, the delicate bellows control required for (single row) push/pull boxes when playing fast tunes is terribly difficult to learn, and I (and possibly many of us) will never get there.
I have bought not less than 8 instructional DVDs about (Irish/Cajun/English) diatonic music, and none of them had a single minute about bellows push/pull techniques. These videos teach you pressing the melody buttons as if the listener were an idiot, they teach melodies, ornamentation, chords but nothing about bellows (and air button).
I gave up learning B/C; it's terribly difficult. I am much more successfull with my new G/C box because of the much more flexible cross-rowing possibilities (I think).
Miki

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Eric Barker on October 21, 2009, 10:45:19 PM
If G/C is the lowest pitch for a 2 row melodeon where is G/C/F pitched?  I thought the G/C rows were the same between the two instruments.  Also where does the BCC# fit in the pitch scheme of G/C being lowest and D/G being highest?
Thank you!  Eric in Montana
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Steve C. on October 21, 2009, 11:08:44 PM
Since you are in the US, consider an Irish Dancemaster D/G.  On the other hand, the lower price Hohners (Panther, Compadre) in GCF are pretty good starters for the money. 
You will not find a lot of tutors for the GCF unless you are wanting to learn Tex-Mex.
I started out with a Pokerwork DG and the Mally book and am convinced that you would learn the most, in the shortest time, with the best sense of accomplishment with this combination.
Then you can figure out what you want going forward.  You never know.  Have you listed to Derek the Nutter's CF?
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Stiamh on October 21, 2009, 11:58:41 PM
I thought the G/C rows were the same between the two instruments.

That's correct - all things being equal.

As far as the lowest-pitched system goes, note that while C/F is normally higher than G/C, there are some C/Fs that are pitched an octave lower, hence lower than your average G/C - a friend of mine is selling one here : http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2410.0.html

A D/G pitched an octave lower than normal would be a nice instrument, just a tone higher than my friend's C/F.

Quote
Also where does the BCC# fit in the pitch scheme of G/C being lowest and D/G being highest?

The lowest row is the B row, and that is higher than the G row of G/C - in fact it's just a semitone lower than the C row on a G/C. And the C# row is a semitone lower than the D row of a D/G and hence a flattened fifth lower than the G row of a D/G. So you could say BCC# was in between G/C and D/G - but a very different sort of animal. It think it wins the "heaviest diatonic" category...
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: ganderbox on October 22, 2009, 11:20:22 AM

If G/C is the lowest pitch for a 2 row melodeon where is G/C/F pitched?  I thought the G/C rows were the same between the two instruments. 

The G/C rows on the treble end are the same for both instruments, but you don't get the full G/C bass layout. You get the basses for a C/F box on the bottom 8, and the extras for playing in G are on the top four.
The main bass you miss out on is the F on the pull, which you need if you want to play in A minor in the same way as on a G/C. You still have it on the push, but it means finding different fingerings for the tunes and moving around the basses more.



As far as the lowest-pitched system goes, note that while C/F is normally higher than G/C, there are some C/Fs that are pitched an octave lower, hence lower than your average G/C - a friend of mine is selling one here : http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2410.0.html

A D/G pitched an octave lower than normal would be a nice instrument, just a tone higher than my friend's C/F.


Thinking about  a D/G/C, maybe it's not a daft idea?. As you say, a low pitched instrument could sound very nice.

I suppose if I'd bought that Streb on eBay I could have programmed it all in to see how it worked..... >:E
 
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: juker on October 22, 2009, 11:29:49 AM
There is a lot of really good information here, however I think in the end you have to go with your 'gut feeling' a bit. When I bought my box I knew almost nothing about them and I bought mine off ebay. It is a G/C Hohner and I love it. I am learning a lot and enjoying playing it. It is light (in weight) and sounds great and the keys (G/C) are versatile and I am finding it very easy, at this stage, to find lots of great tunes to play on my box. Don't be afraid to just get out there and go with your heart and buy something you like  - and you are as well informed (thanks to mel.net!) as a person can be! Go for it  (:)
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: michik on October 22, 2009, 11:36:47 AM
I made list with some possible 3-row instruments
the bold letters are the 3-rows usually available (Hohner Corona for example)
a possibe D/G/C would be at the very top/bottom of the list

D  G  C
E  A  D
F  Bb Eb
G  C  F
A  D  G
Bb Eb Ab

B  E  A
C  F  Bb
D  G  C
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 23, 2009, 02:42:40 AM
Have you listed to Derek the Nutter's CF?

Yes, I've viewed all of Derek's videos. Amazing, isn't he? Quite an inspiration.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 23, 2009, 02:50:41 AM
There is a lot of really good information here, however I think in the end you have to go with your 'gut feeling' a bit. When I bought my box I knew almost nothing about them and I bought mine off ebay. It is a G/C Hohner and I love it. I am learning a lot and enjoying playing it. It is light (in weight) and sounds great and the keys (G/C) are versatile and I am finding it very easy, at this stage, to find lots of great tunes to play on my box. Don't be afraid to just get out there and go with your heart and buy something you like  - and you are as well informed (thanks to mel.net!) as a person can be! Go for it  (:)

Thanks juker, for your thoughts and especially your encouragement. You're right about balancing the much good advice on this forum with going with one's heart, and vice versa. Yes, I'm inching closer and closer to making a decision and going for it, and everyone's input has been invaluable. Mel.net forum members are the best.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 23, 2009, 02:55:21 AM
I made list with some possible 3-row instruments
the bold letters are the 3-rows usually available (Hohner Corona for example)
a possibe D/G/C would be at the very top/bottom of the list

D  G  C
E  A  D
F  Bb Eb
G  C  F
A  D  G
Bb Eb Ab

B  E  A
C  F  Bb
D  G  C

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, michik. You're lucky to have the 3 reeds and 5 switches on your Corona IIIR for variety!
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Theo on October 23, 2009, 08:44:35 AM

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, michik. You're lucky to have the 3 reeds and 5 switches on your Corona IIIR for variety!


I wouldn't worry too much about that, there is plenty of scope for making you music varied and interesting without having switches.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: michik on October 23, 2009, 10:21:40 AM

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, michik. You're lucky to have the 3 reeds and 5 switches on your Corona IIIR for variety!


Currently I'm playing exclusively on the light 2-row Erica instead on the heavy three row Corona :-)
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: melodeon on October 23, 2009, 08:35:05 PM
Interestng topic...

I am now primarily a one row player, though have spent as much time on 2 rows.
I also have dabbled on 3 rows in the standard (4th apart) systems .
I have owned around 50 accordeons to date.

I have now crossed over to what I consider the best of all worlds..
1 rows and 3 rows.

To quote Andy from previous interchanges with respect to the same subject of 2 or 3 row box selection :
" anything you can play on a 2 row you can play on a 3 row and often with more fingering options."

Lest anyone think that 3 rows are slow, listen to Felix et Formanger, Denis Pepin , Gaston Nolet, Steve Jordan,
Joel Guzman and a long list of Zydeco and Tex-Mex players.

In reality I believe a 3 row GCF actually has only 2 notes not available on a 2 row G/C.. but that is not the point..
it is where all the duplicate notes are located, and their direction.. of course this applies to A/D/G and all the other
3 row systems. Because of the layout, "cross rowing" takes on a new meaning. Chord combinations are seemingly
endless and virtually every scale can be played ;albeit with some  modifications.

I recently explored acquiring a new box... wanting what many want, speed, modest weight, playbility, versatility..
the universal accordeon.......consider the absurdity of starting with such a basic choice after owing 50 accordeons.
After long consideration  I have concluded

I will always play 1 rows. They are, for me, the very essence of  accordeon..... so basic and limited that they are
a lifetime pursuit. Nothing substitutes for a 4 reed buzz..And every time I think I have made progress  I listen to the great players...
Begeley, Connolly, O'Halloran, and as previously mentioned the Quebec players such as Denis Pepin, Ouellet, Messervier,
Nolet plus Bruneau and the list is endless.. add to that the many fine (tradtional) Cajun players.
So I am adding more  1 rows to my inventory.

With respect to 2 row boxes, I suppose I will always have one around, but do not currently intend to buy a "quality" ( read that expensive)  unit.  I will still buy cheapies, fix them and turn them. If I specialized in a particular type of music that required a dedicated
2 row that would be different.

Weight..  I have 1 rows that are heavier than some 2 rows
And I find the weight of a 3 row 3 reed 12 bass  comfortable if not pleasurable.  Weight is not a detriment .. once th ebox is in your lap..
and you have some time behind the bellows, weight is a limited  consideration...

As to 2 reed or 3 reed... I'll opt for 3.. with registers for the variety of sounds. The advantages outweigh any other consideration, unless your budget is limited.

Conclusion

1 row and 3 row...

Nothing can substitute for a 4 reed 4 stop 1 row
Nothing can substitute for a 3 row
Either could substitute for a 2 row

To answer your original question.. 3 row  3 reed Lmm  with registers if possible
Or on a budget any of the 3 row 2 reed Hohners...





Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 23, 2009, 10:42:26 PM

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, michik. You're lucky to have the 3 reeds and 5 switches on your Corona IIIR for variety!


I wouldn't worry too much about that, there is plenty of scope for making you music varied and interesting without having switches.

Once I get past the hurdle of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, that is.  (:)


Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, michik. You're lucky to have the 3 reeds and 5 switches on your Corona IIIR for variety!


Currently I'm playing exclusively on the light 2-row Erica instead on the heavy three row Corona :-)

I still envy your Bandoneon (LM) register on the IIIR!



Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 23, 2009, 10:57:46 PM
Thank you, melodeon, for taking the time to respond with such a detailed analysis. Much food for thought and I'm much obliged.

When considering the 1-row/2-row/3-row question, does it all really just come down to personal preference and perhaps longstanding regional tradition? In other words, if one has cut one's musical teeth on a certain system, or if one has musically developed in a playing environment that favors a certain system, does that account for the lion's share of the reason for preferring and remaining with that system, regardless of the pros and cons of each?
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: melodeon on October 23, 2009, 11:30:52 PM
I forgot to add that my current plan is to own "some" 3 rows...the first will be probably be a GCF ( I have owned about 8 of them already)
Then ADG and FBbEb   all better quality.... more than likely Hohner Xtreme III N

Choosing a box system comes down to the "catholic" way or accidental exposure

Either born into it or you bump minto it along the way.

Most box choices seem to be based on regional or ethnic factors such as
Morris.. D/G 2 row
Quebec.. Single row D and possibly C or A  and 3 row more probably GCF and ADG
TEX MEX.. 3 row GCF  then FBbEb  sometimes EAD or ADg
German..  2 row CF and 2 1/2 row "club" CF
Irish B/C and C#/D as well as single row D  sometimes C
English East Anglia  single row C
France G/C and G/C accidentals
Cajun.. Single row C  then Bb then others

and so on

So then you have some folks such as me who want to play it all... so a longer way around the lake

Then there is the "it" factor which varies from one persaon to another  andf the 4 reed "buzz" is my "it" as well as the
incredible flexibility. power. and joy of a 3 row.

2 rows are great instruments but I don't really get "jacked" up when I play one
in spite of owning many including several Castagnaris and Serenellinis etc...


So, the standard question will be " what type of music do you want to play ? "

All that said  it is much like guitars,, the instrument of choice seeems to be built on tradition such as:
Blue Grass... Martin D-18 or D-28
Texas Fiddle... Gibson flat top
Jazz... Big archtop cutaway such as Gibson
BLues...Gibsons mostly
Electric Blues.. Stratocasters and Le Pauls
Gypsy Jazz... Selmer Maccaferri or clones


And for every case there are noteable exceptions in every category... this goes for the accordeon as well

My suggestion is let a box "fall on you"   or  take the averages and  just get a box and start playing.
My first box was a Saxon no name single row 4 stop sharped Bflat box I bought for $25 and played for some time.
As to quality and brand envy and so on...  many folks look down on Hohners but to quote Paul Groff  ...
"lots of great music has been played on Hohners."
Get what you can afford and "turn" without great loss and get into the process of learning as it that will take you in a direction
that will lead to other choices down the road..

I did not start playing until I was 47....FYI

Good luck

BTW  if you don't have a box ,Ill loan you an imminently playable  50's Hohner C/F pokerwork until you decide what to get.
No strings....  just let me know.






Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 25, 2009, 02:32:53 AM
Melodeon, thanks again for taking the time for another detailed and well-thought out reply and also for your regional/ethnic breakdown of systems. Very interesting. And I'm glad to know that I will not have been the first to try to learn to play a melodeon/diatonic accordion well into my middle age years! I'm also very grateful for your kind offer to loan me a box to try. Many, many thanks for your generosity.

After much thought and consideration, and the advice you've all been so generous to provide on this thread, and viewing countless YouTube videos which have opened up a whole new world (actually, many different new worlds) of music for me, and based on the styles of music I feel most drawn to begin playing, (not to mention my financial budget), I have decided to place an order for a Hohner Morgane G/C. This was a decision as much of the heart as of the head for me, and given that I was initially leaning toward a 3-row, somewhat of a surprise as well. Believe me, the pendulum was swinging back and forth many times. Once my finances allow, though, perhaps my next purchase will be a 3-row.

My sincerest thanks to you and to everyone in the melodeon.net community who have responded. You're the best!

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: melodeon on October 25, 2009, 03:23:21 AM
Excellent decision !!

Consider the Milleret/Pignol  book and CD's   available from The Button Box in Mass

Also check out  CARUHEL publications in France  by Yann Dour..
excellent books

And for some very good G/C listening try Frederic(sp) Paris....he put out a couple of books..not sure they are still available

And one of my all time favorite 2 row G/C players is Santiago Jimenez JR.. Flaco's  brother...( and IMNSHO a far better player)
one excellent CD  playing  a two row Hohner  is :   El Gato Negro   ... Rounder CD 6044
Proof  "we don need no stinkin 3 row"..........

On you tube there is a lot of 2 row GC playing

I have some favorites and one is by a young guy from I believe Nova Scotia
I'll see if I can locate it...  he is doing a great job on a Hohner  Erica G/C....


Best of luck !

Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: juker on October 25, 2009, 04:13:51 AM
http://www.avocetmusic.com/frenchtradmusic/mitch.html (http://www.avocetmusic.com/frenchtradmusic/mitch.html)

Mitch Gordon at the above website is a great source of French music - Jean Blanchard, Frederic Paris and also has a book/CD set called 'Getting Into The Box - Traditional French Music on the G/C Button Accordion - Vol. 1' which has tunes played slowly and also at normal speed, ideal for learning with. I purchased the book and CD myself and have found them very useful.
Title: Re: A neophyte asks: 2 row vs. 3 row (advantages/disadvantages)
Post by: Medleyitis on October 26, 2009, 03:40:07 PM
Thanks again, melodeon and juker for your encouragement and suggestions. Yes, some of those French diatonic players are amazing. Have you ever seen the videos by the Belgian/Catallonian duo 21 Boutons? I've also viewed a lot of G/C playing on YouTube from the Canadian Maritimes. As I replied the other day to Theo, though, first I've got to get over the hurdle of learning how to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star!
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