There's also a widely-held view that seventh chords aren't appropriate for British traditional music.
That is a new one to me. I always thought the reason why there is a low D pull on the G row is precisely so that you can play a D7. maybe this needs to be a new topic.
So on our G row G1,A,B,C,D5,E,F#,G we take Theo's D and then alternate notes - D,F#,A,C = a D7 chord |
Pull the A7 chord AG row + C#,E,GD row - quite 'folkie' and resolves to D push... Now simply move that middle finger onto the G row. You now play A,C,E,G - which is a |
Some musings on 7th chords (I didn't see the original thread!).
I don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with a 7th or m7 chord used in English trad. Where
quote
nothing intrinsically wrong with 7ths or any others provided they genuinely add to the proceedings & both the player & anybody listening /dancing or whatever is of the swamae opinion. Personally I like the sound of 7ths and therefore use them quite freely on my 5 row sstradella but manage quite well without them on 4 row stradella. On Dg there is only the occasional oportunity without torturing yourself so they get u;sed very occasionaly. Using the same reasoning I tend to minimise the use of minor chords (and playing in minor keys) because I don't particularly like the sound of them aalthugh to many players minors are the bees knees.
Traditional music is , to me, all about making tunes come out the way you want them to & not to necessarily follow chords that have been added somewhere along the line to a tune composed eg for fiddle
george
As a one row melodeon player with no IV chord in the left hand, a seventh is what happens when pulling IV in the right and V in the left. No jazz, no mush, nothing arty farty, just an unavoidable feature of the instrument - play it loud and proud.
Maybe it's because American music is more rooted around a harmonic structure, whereas English songs were largely unaccompanied and developed a structure which is less dependent on chords (played or implied).
That's the kind of music I grew up on. One of my early influences on guitar (I only took up melodeon much later) was Geoff Harris, who was in the Halliard before Nic Jones and ran my local folk club, and I also had a few lessons from Nigel Paterson, also of the Halliard, so there was a lot of that kind of stuff around me. To me, 7th chords just sound wrong in English tunes, although as I said before they sound fine in American music.
I'm a seat-of-the pants instinctive ear player, and my knowledge of music theory is sketchy, so I've no idea whether I'm talking about flattened or major sevenths, or both. I just go on what sounds right to me. 7ths just sound cheesy and obvious.
D7 | D F# | just Dmaj, but with a 'minor' 7 - so dominant |
D(major)maj 7 | D F# A C# | F# and C# are both in the D scale this is the ultimate 'relax' chord in jazz |
D minor 7 | D F A C | again both F and C are in a D (minor) scale our 7th 'feels like a colour' let's flatten that 5th note .. |
D min7 b5 | D F Ab C | tritone again, but its D fighting Ab! this is the 'lochrian' VII chord - it wants to resolve to Eb we can still flattened our 7 note, one more notch .. [grunt, creak] |
D min b5 bb7 | D F Ab B | Gadzooks two tritones! D fights Ab and F now fights B |
When you are talking about D7 in the key of G it would be the dominant 7th chord (b7). It adds more tension (obviousness?) to the dominant chord to have that b7 in there pulling strongly back to the I chord.
Just so we talk the same language ...
Just so we talk the same language ...
I'm not sure we do....that's the only bit I understand!
D7 D F# G C just Dmaj, but with a 'minor' 7 - so dominant
I don't have a clue either. Might as well be in a foreign language.
Just so we talk the same language ...
I'm not sure we do....that's the only bit I understand!
When you are talking about D7 in the key of G it would be the dominant 7th chord (b7). It adds more tension (obviousness?) to the dominant chord to have that b7 in there pulling strongly back to the I chord. A major seventh is more a 'flavoring' often of the I chord, commonly used in jazz tunes (along with the 6th). I have heard ( I can't remember where) that dominant sevenths are very unwelcome in Irish music but then chords in general are looked at with disdain by many traditional irish players.
When you are talking about D7 in the key of G it would be the dominant 7th chord (b7). It adds more tension (obviousness?) to the dominant chord to have that b7 in there pulling strongly back to the I chord.
... no major 3 + b7 .. no tritone .. no tension
Just a chord-naming thing, though - I can't see why it was ever decided that a G chord for example with a flattened 7th in it should ever be shown as 'G7', when that would be a better name for 'Gma7'. It's as if the blues came first, and grabbed the name, and only later did jazz musicians come along and want to play a 'real' 7th note with the major triad!
But there is a tritone...by b7 waltzman means minor seventh, i.e. D F# A C
G7 is a major chord with a minor 7th. Gmaj 7 is a major chord with a major 7th. If one were to see "G" on its own, one would presume that it is major. The most common occurrence of a 7th chord is in the dominant 7th, which is a minor 7th, so that's your "plain" 7 after it, giving G7. Gmaj 7 is more exceptional, so the maj is added to indicate that the seventh is major, not the first three notes of the chord. I don't know if I've said that clearly but that's why G7 is a dominant 7 chord.
If you called G dom 7 "Gmaj 7" then what would you call G major 7, Gmaj 7maj?
QuoteG7 is a major chord with a minor 7th. Gmaj 7 is a major chord with a major 7th. If one were to see "G" on its own, one would presume that it is major. The most common occurrence of a 7th chord is in the dominant 7th, which is a minor 7th, so that's your "plain" 7 after it, giving G7. Gmaj 7 is more exceptional, so the maj is added to indicate that the seventh is major, not the first three notes of the chord. I don't know if I've said that clearly but that's why G7 is a dominant 7 chord.
If you called G dom 7 "Gmaj 7" then what would you call G major 7, Gmaj 7maj?
Well, yes, all I was trying to point out was that this system of naming chords is inconsistent, and if it were entirely logical, wouldn't you use 'G7' to describe GBDF#, instead of 'Gma7', and 'G7b' or 'G7-' or some such convention, to describe GBDF? The term 'minor 7th' is OK in describing intervals, but if you were to call GBDF 'Gmin7' you would have obvious confusion! It sounds like we're in agreement that this came about for historical rather than logical reasons.
there's just so many ways that some chords are written on lead sheets.This is all getting a bit too heavy for me. ;D
As I said, if you were to call GBDF Gmaj7 then what would you call GBDF#?
QuoteAs I said, if you were to call GBDF Gmaj7 then what would you call GBDF#?
Well, surely the tonic chord's scale (whatever it may be) is irrelevant to the nomencalture? But I'm not trying to suggest any changes, merely observing an interesting contradiction.
there's just so many ways that some chords are written on lead sheets.This is all getting a bit too heavy for me. ;D
Actually I've even less idea why several members who aren't interested in chords feel so compelled to put in these one liners saying that. I mean .. if one is 'useless at chords' (as I was once) .. then study it! It is the basis of impro, after all.
Just to keep the pot boiling: Isn't G A B C# D E F# G the scale of G Lydian?
I've no idea why the basic dominant G chord is called G7 - but we are stuck with that.I think it was the first seventh chord used and it's still the most widely used one. So probably it's just efficiency to use the simplest notation for the most used thing.
I think it was the first seventh chord used and it's still the most widely used one. So probably it's just efficiency to use the simplest notation for the most used thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_chord
Sure, jb. Now I think Nick Lucas could actually play the guitar, but you wouldn't know it from that film clip!
in the 1920s song side by side, the subject of another current thread (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,4762.0.html), the middle eight simply comprises an extended sequence of this kind. E.g. in this rendition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjNX_gayY1E), based (I think) in Eb, and where the run is G(7), C(7), F(7), Bb(7).
in the 1920s song side by side, the subject of another current thread (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,4762.0.html), the middle eight simply comprises an extended sequence of this kind. E.g. in this rendition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjNX_gayY1E), based (I think) in Eb, and where the run is G(7), C(7), F(7), Bb(7).
It's called 'anatole'.
there's just so many ways that some chords are written on lead sheets.This is all getting a bit too heavy for me. ;D
Lost me ages ago! ???
He said he really didn't like all those open guitar tunings that emerged in the 70's - and that they all sounded the same.Most of these open tunings were used in blues much earlier (e.g. Robert Johnson). Slide guitar is so much easier with open tunings. Then again, some people think all blues sounds the same too. ;)
Most of these open tunings were used in blues much earlier (e.g. Robert Johnson). Slide guitar is so much easier with open tunings. Then again, some people think all blues sounds the same too. ;)
He said he really didn't like all those open guitar tunings that emerged in the 70's - and that they all sounded the same.