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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: sqwzboxstudent on January 10, 2011, 04:40:06 PM

Title: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 10, 2011, 04:40:06 PM
hi all ive been playing now for about 3/4 years and am struggling to progress at the moment, the main thing i need to do is get my bass hand jumping around, but dont want to looses the punch of playing up and down the row by row crossing. ive managed to pick up a little ornamentation,
but that seems to be it! heres a short video of where im at the moment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_u6EVjWwE

anyone got any advice for my progress?
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Rob2Hook on January 10, 2011, 05:19:46 PM
The good news is that you seem to have mastered the Dartmoor style!  By playing purely along the row, the bellows dynamics are naturally occurring, but the basses are extremely limited.  In the context of playing in G on a D/G, you could use the C bass/chord in a lot more places especially as it's available on both push and pull, also you can walk the bass around the G triad, G, D and B or use an A bass (pull) with the D chord.  If you want to go further, then consider when playing in D that you will need to play some phrases on the G row to make the G bass/chord available unless you have a 12 bass box, with a pull G.  To go any further, you'll need to play a few phrases cross row to make the required basses available.  When doing this you'll need to pay more attention to maintaining the bellows dynamics rather than letting it happen naturally.

In the end, just a few things to try.  Adopt those you like and reject those you don't - otherwise your style may change in a way you don't want.

Rob.

P.S. Love listening to the style and have thoroughly enjoyed sessions at the Dartmoor Festival with the Orchards!
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 10, 2011, 05:29:25 PM
thanks! i guess you HAVE  to cross rows at some point to get a nice varied bass line? do you think my timing and rhythem needs work? whats a triad?
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 10, 2011, 06:51:29 PM
If playing mainly on the row  it is worth experimenting with adding right hand chortds & additional rhythm using finger(s) not engaged at that moment in tune playing!. 

if playing in D on the row you can usefully bring in the B bass note occasionally  i.e.  D bass D chord Bbass Dchord etc is just a question of judging where it sound best. ( same can be done with C bass note if on row in G.

varying the bass rhythm can help eg instead of um pa um pa play um pa pa pa. or even um pa then pa pa pa using both bass note & chord together' then again you can leave the bass note alone for a bit & just play athe chord or vice versa.

In some ways its only worth crossing the row for the G bass (when playing in D if the G note is fairly long so the punters will hear thye result your efforts. In a fast tune if tapping bass lightly they probably wont notice the difference between crossing to the G reow or staying on the D row1

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Sandy on January 10, 2011, 08:56:02 PM
For some tunes I make the bass note very short and the following chord hold down until the next bass note.
Basically a very short 'Um' and a long 'pah'. This can really drive or lift a tune and give bounce even when crossing rows.

Alternatively, if each starting note of a phrase is played stoccato against a held down bass note it involves a slight punchy push on the box which gives it a percussive feel on one row or two.

I like the Dartmoor style and want to listen to more.  8)

Cheers

Sandy
 (:)
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 10, 2011, 11:19:38 PM
Bellows pulsing would, I presume, also fit in well with the Dartmoor style'  To get it right can take a bit of practice but in effect it can be used to add anoaher layer of rhythm over & above that provided ;by either the treble or bass ends of the box. It works just as well either on t he row or row crossing.

The trick is to develop a very 'fine' type of pulsing  so that the 'shake or pulse' is hardly visible & can be used anywhere in a tune other than where  a fast succesion of ins & outs occur in the tune.  It can be used fo;r waltzes, jigs, reels, marches , hornpipes, polkas slow airs or whatever . 

First attempts  inevitalbly result in fairly course bellows movements   - its just a question of refining the processs from there on. Start with waltz 3/4 rhythm just hold any note down  and apply pressure to bellows to give in effect an um pa pa rhythm i.e. PUSh push push or PUll pull pull or for a 4/4 or 6/8 its  PUSH push etc

once mastered it can be added anyuwhere in a tune as takes your faqncy.

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 10, 2011, 11:30:51 PM
It is one of the techniques that Andy Cutting uses to great effect, he described it to me as the heartbeat of the music.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: TomB on January 11, 2011, 01:10:05 AM
Not just for melodeonists but for all instruments, do you really need to play that fast? Your brain 'knows' the tune but your fingers get a bit lost at times. When practicing, slowing down gives you more 'thinking time'. More time to get your fingers in sync with how you feel the tune should sound. More time to listen to the basses and how they sound with the notes you are playing. Once your fingers are 'locked in' to the pattern of the tune, then start to speed up. Just my thoughts, anyhow. Enjoy your music, that's the main thing.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 11, 2011, 10:17:01 AM
Not just for melodeonists but for all instruments, do you really need to play that fast? Your brain 'knows' the tune but your fingers get a bit lost at times. When practicing, slowing down gives you more 'thinking time'. More time to get your fingers in sync with how you feel the tune should sound. More time to listen to the basses and how they sound with the notes you are playing. Once your fingers are 'locked in' to the pattern of the tune, then start to speed up. Just my thoughts, anyhow. Enjoy your music, that's the main thing.

to which I would add ' never play faster than you can'!

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 11, 2011, 10:21:47 AM
It is one of the techniques that Andy Cutting uses to great effect, he described it to me as the heartbeat of the music.

Jimmy Shand  also used it to great effect, it being a more or less integral part of the unique A
Shand sound.

I always think in terms of the bellows  being to the box player what the bow is to a fidler- in many ways the very soul of the instrument  -- not a bloody great air pump to be bear hugged!

george :D
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 11, 2011, 04:03:41 PM
so you basicly push / pull air through the note while your holding it to the rhythm of the tune?
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 11, 2011, 04:31:24 PM
more or less!  You play the tune in whatever way you would normally play it whilst  generating a rhythm by minutely varying the bellows pressure  to the tunes basic rhythm.  I mentioned holding a note whilst doing it just as a way of getting the initial hanag of it.

easier to do than explain!

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 11, 2011, 05:09:35 PM
Sandy's recent posting in TOTM (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,5713.msg72992.html#msg72992) is a very clear example of this technique in action in a waltz.  Listen to the long notes on the second and subsequent times through the tune.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 14, 2011, 10:26:23 AM
so you basicly push / pull air through the note while your holding it to the rhythm of the tune?

One of the best examples of 'rhythm bellows' is from the wonderful John Kirkpatrick playing in Brass Monkey and the song 'Maid and The Palmer'.
He's playing his button accordeon though...

Just listen and watch the bellows..   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFS7YseQOOw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFS7YseQOOw)



Almo
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 14, 2011, 11:04:08 AM
I think  Johns  ins & outs in the clip are to play differeent in & out notes!  The technique of bellows pulsing or pulsing out a rhythm by using variations in air pressure (& pullssure!) is a much more refined process & is not  normally visible from afar in the way John is playing.  On that basis he may well be pulsing the bellows as well as doing the required ins & outs.

another (? related) bit of bellowss technique is  to do a very quick & light ' back snatch' between notes to provide a different note as a grace note  eg in Blaydon races on a BC(C#)  or DG box the start of the tune could be played as  D GaGG  GGaGG GAgAAgABG the lower case  letters representing the grace notes  . Much easier on a button box than on a piano keyboard as  the finger is already there!

george.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 14, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
I think  Johns  ins & outs in the clip are to play differeent in & out notes!  The technique of bellows pulsing or pulsing out a rhythm by using variations in air pressure (& pullssure!) is a much more refined process & is not  normally visible from afar in the way John is playing.  On that basis he may well be pulsing the bellows as well as doing the required ins & outs.


If you look at JK fingers - they don't move at the start - all he's doing is holding down a 'D' which he will get on both push and pull on that box..and pulsing the note. As the song progresses he changes to another chord, then back etc...

You can try it on a D/G box by holding the bass 'C' down and pulsing to see what I mean.

Almo
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: michik on January 14, 2011, 12:29:13 PM
Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUt6ObU_UFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OKolOKE-iY
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 14, 2011, 12:41:45 PM
Michik, I didn't know there was a technical term 'bellows shake' he he...but yes - I think that what JK is doing on Maid and The Palmer Man...

I sometimes finish a tune with a little bit of a tremelo at the end on the final note when I'm in the mood.


Alan
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Anahata on January 14, 2011, 02:03:08 PM

If you look at JK fingers - they don't move at the start - all he's doing is holding down a 'D' which he will get on both push and pull on that box..and pulsing the note.

That box doesn't have any unisonoric notes.
He must be playing that repeated note on a bass button.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 14, 2011, 08:30:47 PM
Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
 

the bellows 'shakes' shown on the 2 utube clips would not work on a suck and blow box as each shake would produce a different note.  What I am refering to is simple 'pulsing' of the bellows during movement in or  out over a number of notes , but not where a run of ins & outs on individual notes occurs. The so called bellows shake involves a push/pull sequence at whatever speed is appropriate to whatever is being played¬!

Pulsing  is done by using a series of PUSH- push  or PUll - pull actions with the bellows  moving  in one direction i.e. instead of  applying continuous even pressure  the pressure is varied in line with the beat required for a particular type of tune , hence for a waltz  the um pa pa rhythm is generated by a  SLIGHTLY  harder push (the UM) followed by 2  less hard pushes (the PA PA). a 4/4 would be harder push - lesser push  = UM- pa sort of thing.

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: michik on January 14, 2011, 09:03:57 PM
Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
 

the bellows 'shakes' shown on the 2 utube clips would not work on a suck and blow box as each shake would produce a different note.  What I am refering to is simple 'pulsing' of the bellows during movement in or  out over a number of notes , but not where a run of ins & outs on individual notes occurs. The so called bellows shake involves a push/pull sequence at whatever speed is appropriate to whatever is being played¬!

Pulsing  is done by using a series of PUSH- push  or PUll - pull actions with the bellows  moving  in one direction i.e. instead of  applying continuous even pressure  the pressure is varied in line with the beat required for a particular type of tune , hence for a waltz  the um pa pa rhythm is generated by a  SLIGHTLY  harder push (the UM) followed by 2  less hard pushes (the PA PA). a 4/4 would be harder push - lesser push  = UM- pa sort of thing.

george

Hm, my accordeon teacher told me to avoid such accordeon technique on a general basis.
She told me to use such technique only for ornamentation, but not throughout the whole melody.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Owen Woods on January 14, 2011, 09:07:31 PM
I've met high profile accordion players and teachers who say wholly disparate things on the subject of bellows shake. It's worth noting though that the technique is (as far as I can tell) more common amongst dance musicians than otherwise. I know how much a regular bellows shake can add to the danceability of a tune.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 14, 2011, 09:08:55 PM
The effect all through a tune would not really work...good for starts and finishes, or rhythm for accompaniment to vocals or other melody instruments.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Martin J on January 14, 2011, 09:15:07 PM
Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUt6ObU_UFY
....
This guy is great, he's turned a very expensive accordion into a didgerydo.
... and it's not only melodeon players who gurn.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 14, 2011, 09:39:09 PM
The effect all through a tune would not really work...good for starts and finishes, or rhythm for accompaniment to vocals or other melody instruments.

I'm not suggesting  gentle pulsing of the bellows should used throughout a tune but would suggest that it can be used for much more than starts & finishes, being, just like variations in bass style & rhythm ,varied according to the desires of the player & opportunities the tune provides.  As to shake as per the clips  - not a lot of use on a push/pull box and not to be confused with a  subtle  bellows reversal to bring in the note on 'the other side of the button' as a gracenote

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 15, 2011, 11:31:24 PM
thanks for the replys! ive been messing around with pulsing the bellows the last few days! not having much success, but it has made me remember about using volume as dynamics. ive also been messing around with playing two buttons at the same time sort of like a halve chord, and holding down notes in octaves, and  cross rowing for single notes to vary the bass slightly, whilst keepin it dartmoor.

theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 16, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???

Random(attributed to Gateshead's own James Hill), yes one of my favourites, played it last night at a ceilidh.

I also struggled with all those push notes up the D arpeggio.  Though they were impossible and gave up, then I heard the wonderful Julian Sutton (http://www.kathryntickell.com/biography/julian_sutton_melodeon/) playing it on a Kathryn Tickell Band CD, so that showed me its was in theory possible.  Its actually a good exercise to take just that phrase and practice it, and  work out where in the phrase you can hop your first finger over or under the others in order to have fingers available for the next 3 or 4 buttons.

I also found the third part hard - all those octave jumps, and I still struggle with my little finger to get the top notes crisp.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 16, 2011, 11:50:23 AM
im ok with the octaves in the third part and have even worked out a bass run of D, Emin, C,  D to go with it.

is there an easy bass run on the push i could use for the b part? i thought of just holding the D chord but that just sucks all the air out!
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 16, 2011, 12:06:10 PM
It's a cracking tune, I first heard Dave Swarbrick and Simon Nicol's version of it on 'Live at the White Bear' ages ago.

Hope you nail it

Alan
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 16, 2011, 01:18:33 PM
so on a scale of 1 - 10 how hard would random notes be with out any fancy bass or ornamentation?
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 16, 2011, 01:33:02 PM
I found that it was quite challenging, just to learn to play the melody with a good rhythm and lift.  Five out of ten, where one is Winster Gallop an ten is something I haven't learned yet.  Mind you its a logarithmic scale!   ;D ;D

 I'm not taking this too seriously because so much depends on the individual,  one persons easy-peasy tune other may find a challenge.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 16, 2011, 04:14:42 PM
I know it's written in 'D', but I find it easier to play on the 'G' row with an 'Am' bass chord in there.

Having said that - I have only just attempted it and I don't read dots....but it feels like I'll need a lot of time to get it into my head, even though I know the tune.

'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


Almo
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 16, 2011, 04:43:04 PM

'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


But surely you can just hit your key change footswitch (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,5835.0.html) and hey presto, you will be in D. 8)
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 16, 2011, 04:48:45 PM

'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


But surely you can just hit your key change footswitch (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,5835.0.html) and hey presto, you will be in D. 8)

Whoops - rumbled.... ::)

Almo
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Anahata on January 17, 2011, 08:43:45 AM
theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???

(melodeon not available at work, so I'm only imagining what I would do...)
I think I hold the D bass note for 5 treble notes, playing a chord on just the sixth, then revert to um pah on the second bar. Breaking up the rhythm even that little makes a huge difference. Also changing from held note to rhythmic bass add to to build up excitement as the RH climbs up up to a peak at that top note. Start it quiet and get louder as you go up for best effect.

I also struggled with all those push notes up the D arpeggio.  Thought they were impossible and gave up
I do a sort of crabwise crawl up the keyboard, 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-[1-2-3 or 2-3-4]
Coming down is the tricky bit - when you have to jump from an A which is inevitably on 1st finger down to a D two buttons away. I just make the jump: a slight silence between the notes at that point helps to separate the phrase from its repeat.

I also like to give it some shape by playing three notes legato and the next three staccato, or some variation on that.

Great tune - must play more often...
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Marje on January 17, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
I love that tune and it's a great favourite at local sessions. We usually precede it with Hexam Quadrille (aka "I'll Get Wed in my Auld Claes"). My main problem with it is that certain musicians on certain other instruments will keep speeding it up, so that in the end you can't hear all the notes and it just sort of thumps along, like in a bad Irish session.

Whatever our faults may be as melodeon players, we're generally not the ones responsible for daft, uncontrolled acceleration of tunes.

Maybe the trick in the B part is to use very little bass in those arpeggio runs - just tap lightly on either the fundamental or the chord button but possibly not both. You don't want to drown out the right-hand tune, which at that point sounds cleverer and more difficult  than it actually is. Holding both buttons down might work for some, but as gypsylad says there's a risk of running out of air. It depends both on the box and on the playing style.

In the C part, I play the first octave-triplet of As on the D row, then cross to the G row to play the next triplet of Bs with a G bass, then back to the D row for the rest. This gives a nice chord sequence of D-G-A-D and balances out the pushes and pulls.
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Martin J on January 17, 2011, 02:18:45 PM
I don't know the tune.  Is the middle one of this set the same tune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17_30Du-9Y
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Theo on January 17, 2011, 02:21:05 PM
Yes, well found.  It is very difficult to do a search for "Random" or "Random notes"
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on January 17, 2011, 04:09:24 PM
il try and get a video of it on utube later!
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: george garside on January 17, 2011, 04:30:22 PM
I .

 Maybe the trick in the B part is to use very little bass in those arpeggio runs - just tap lightly on either the fundamental or the chord button but possibly not both. You don't want to drown out the right-hand tune, which at that point sounds cleverer and more difficult  than it actually is. Holding both buttons down might work for some, but as gypsylad says there's a risk of running out of air. It depends both on the box and on the playing style.

In .

 theres a lot to be said from stopping the bass at the beginning of a fancy bit of the melody as a sort of reverse ornementation (and its entirely free of charge!) The trick to make it effective is to  decide carefully exactly where & in what way to bring the bass back in at the end of the ''fancy bit'  .An added bonus is that when the bass is abruptly stopped the treble goes suddenly louder ( unless evasive action is taken to prevent this) and thus puts an extra emphasis on the melody - when the bass is resumed the treble will go quieter as the air pressure in the bellows is once more going in two directions.

george
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on January 17, 2011, 04:32:21 PM
Random Notes tune is also here on YouTube - and quite a good version of it on mandolin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMzVDxdZCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMzVDxdZCk)

You can also find it here  http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/jigs.htm (http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/jigs.htm) you can 'right click' and download the midi file.

I have attempted to attached the midi file of the tune for you, but it can't be attached :(

I have a VERY large collection of midi tunes, which included loads of traditional tunes if you need a tune just ask.

Almo
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: Alan Morley on June 12, 2011, 05:23:49 PM
so on a scale of 1 - 10 how hard would random notes be with out any fancy bass or ornamentation?

Gypsylad - did you ever crack the Random Notes tune ?
Title: Re: advice sought for progress!
Post by: sqwzboxstudent on June 12, 2011, 08:19:53 PM
its nearly there, a couple nights practice and il have it  , we even play it in our band , folowed by atholl highlanders
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