Are you looking for a box which will be cheap enough for most people at least to be able to think about buying or for a box at the top end of the market that we'll all go "wow" over but realistically never do more than drool over? Steve
Sorry if this is considered "reactive"
As a universal standard, single row German style accordions should all have stops that are down for on.How would you operate them with your chin for THE BIG FINISH?
teeth and a big mouth ;-As a universal standard, single row German style accordions should all have stops that are down for on.How would you operate them with your chin for THE BIG FINISH?
:D
As an example, my first car was a Triumph Toledo, old, solid and I could do all the basic maintenance and troubleshoot on it and even replace bits as required. My current vehicle (a Ford Transit with engine management etc) I don't know where to start with, if it goes wrong it's the AA and then probably a tow to a garage as even their patrols can't repair most faults (or even find them if it's a chip in the EM that's faulty).
I've been thinking about this and IMHO there are times when "leave well alone" comes to mind.
As an example, my first car was a Triumph Toledo, old, solid and I could do all the basic maintenance and troubleshoot on it and even replace bits as required. Steve
Injection moulding of reedblocks seems attractive at first, except I doubt wax would stick to many of the suitable plastics, nor a facing material - requires more thought...
I've been waiting for the British entry level poll to end, but voting is no longer 'steady' and it's now a matter of waiting until polls close for Peter Snow to dust off his ol' swingometer.
Having looked out some new kit in the past 7 years, I'm deeply impressed with some of the innovation going on. At Ch.Ars there were some intriguing novelties in Gurdy lutherie. Here are melodeon/accordeon examples from my own experience
- Gaillards humpback whale sized airhole, and thinned wood that vibrates with the low notes, aluminium panels inside
- Oakwood's structural incorporation of plywood - strength without weight.
- Van der Aa's amazing compactness (he grinds the plate edges down)
This is intended as a Blue Skies thread. Ideas for structural redesign of the melodeon taking full advantage of 21st Century materials. I'd like to exclude 'midi' and keep to physical music making, but otherwise anything goes. Laminate box walls (titanium alloy even?), magnesium reed blocks as per motor-bike engines, carbon fibre bellows, superglued ceramic reeds. We could discuss different box shapes or 'ergonomic' keyboards.
We are after a light, perhaps compact multi voice box that plays like a nightingale, and might be amenable to scale manufacture. Despite what happened to poor M Loffet - bought in parts are allowed! We'd like it a bit cheaper than the otherwise lovely walnut a cabinet maker luthier produces. Frans has shown us what can be done in deluxe finishes (car paint, apparently) - or we can use laminates if we want grain to show.
Please - I'd like this to be a 'reflective' rather than reactive thread, so do 'sleep on it' before you post. Makers, engineers and materials scientists particularly welcome! :P
Worth looking at for 21st century tools for traditional melodeons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qAaNlVZHnw&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qAaNlVZHnw&feature=share)
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1816239605545.2091037.1226742509 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1816239605545.2091037.1226742509)
The reeds (if on normal reed plates) could be held down direct to the aluminium with screws into tapped holes
The reeds (if on normal reed plates) could be held down direct to the aluminium with screws into tapped holes
Therein lies a problem. Aluminium doesn't take a thread well and wears very quickly. Built in obsolescence guaranteed. For a long life box think again!
| (http://image.wetpaint.com/image/2/sG2DaitH3rIGn3NVbtCykQ892/GW131H66) | Please note, we need to be careful in mixing materials if the 'stuff' of the box is to vibrate. The reflection/transmission ratio for sound at an interface varies with square of the difference in acoustic impedance (more solid things don't impede sound, think "railway tracks"). Wood to wood to wood is similar impedance value, low difference, most sound transmitted. Aluminium to styrofoam to carbon fibre ??? I suspect a lot of sound might never get out |
When I was discussing my "21st century melodeon" ideas with Jerry Tozer, one of the ideas I had was to flat-mount all the reeds for a 2.5 row 2-reed box by CNC milling the reed chambers out of a solid block of ply -- in fact doing it out of aluminium would have been better but didn't suit the person planning to do the construction.
This would not only mean you could have individual ideally shaped (whatever that was) reed chambers with the minimum amount of free space, but would be light (since a lot of the material is milled away) and very rigid, and very fast to do once set up. The reeds (if on normal reed plates) could be held down direct to the aluminium with screws into tapped holes, with no problem with flatness or warpage and a very rigid coupling between the reed frame and the "reed block" -- no resonances like the ones we were talking about that need reed block straps.
Also the "reed block" could be made easily swappable like Stormy Hyde was talking about, for switching keys :-)
in fact doing it out of aluminium would have been better
we need to be careful in mixing materials if the 'stuff' of the box is to vibrate.
...
Aluminium to styrofoam to carbon fibre ??? I suspect a lot of sound might never get out
er....I'll have to take your work on that one Chris ;D
er....I'll have to take your work on that one Chris ;D
Basic training stuff in all medical ultrasound departments! Basically interfaces reflect (there are ways to prevent this).
Just to pick up anahata's point - is it only the chopped airstream? There are paddles etc in the way and some box designs have quite complex paths. Also for the simple ones - qute different tones so something mechanical is in play?
If it is all in the air flow - that's something else we could work on. Present boxes radiate most of their sound sideways. Pignol demo'd this to us last month - turning on his feet.
If it is all in the air flow - that's something else we could work on. Present boxes radiate most of their sound sideways.
The vibrating mass of a reed is tiny, otherwise the sound would carry on quite loudly when you close a valve because the reed vibrates for quite some time.
Thread inserts?Certainly. One of the readily available brass inserts would do the job.
Though I'd have thought a thread tapped into a 10mm thick aluminium block is going to have plenty of strength to hold a reed down, given that you're not going to screw it in and out hundreds of times...Yes, that's a fair point. Threads and aluminium still make my teeth itch though, call me old fashioned if you will ...
.... One of the readily available brass inserts would do the job.
Silicone rubber (either pre-extruded or applied like a sealant) instead of wax?
Steve
a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way) W
Silicone rubber (either pre-extruded or applied like a sealant) instead of wax?
Steve
Could you list the advantages please? I can tell you several reasons not to use silicone having had to undo several sets of reeds that had been fixed with the stuff by well-meaningbotchersamateurs.
So what are the disadvantages of silicone please? :|glug
In Lillys are not the reeds mounted right on the soundboard? I thought the sound board contributed to the sound, not an "air" sound? I feel like you can feel a Lilly vibrate (a little).
5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)
5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)
A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.
5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)
A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.
Cool! Will try to find info as well :-)
W
the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!
Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it) :|glug
the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!
Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it) :|glug
[geek mode]
No, the uranium mineral is pitchblende, which I suppose could also have musical connotations.
(I used to be a geologist)
[/geek mode]
the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!
Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it) :|glug
[geek mode]
No, the uranium mineral is pitchblende, which I suppose could also have musical connotations.
(I used to be a geologist)
[/geek mode]
heh, geologist +1, though i neer worked as one.
5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)
A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.
Cool! Will try to find info as well :-)
W
His website is http://www.bluesbox.biz/ (http://www.bluesbox.biz/) with plenty of information, but the details of how his pitch bend works is kept carefully under wraps!
Yep! Coal mining geologist. Down in the dark and dirties for 20 years, then sunny side up with the BGS (http://www.bgs.ac.uk/) for another 12. Still at it - teaching geology at the university here in Sheffield.heh, geologist +1, though i neer worked as one.
Me neither. Steve Freereeder did thoiugh.
Certainly the aluminium board in my posh box gives a sharper tone (cuts into your ear like a chisel!) than another box from the same maker with a ply board. The transmission path is so short and wide from the reed to the outside air that I'm not convinced that the wood has as much effect on the tone - I could be wrong, of course. It would be interesting to compare if anyone made a board from an even more accoustically neutral composite, concrete perhaps? Presumably the Holy Grail for an experimenter would be a material so rigid and non-resonant it doesn't have any sympathetic vibration causing loss of enegy at the reed. Sound deadening materials for engine compartments use a composite of varying density rubbers sandwiching a lead foil layer. How about an ali/lead/ali sandwich?
I have to say I'm deeply impressed by his approach to construction and the precision metalwork is very appealing ..... It's not totally incongruous for a musical instrument to have precision metalwork like that - look at any modern wind instrument with lots of keys on it, like a clarinet, flute or oboe. There's lots of bushes, bearings, levers and tiny screws, all custom made, none of your Heath Robinson bits of bent wire there... (and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
Hang on a tick.... the pads which seal the tone holes on woodwind instruments are not actually made of cork at all. They are a carefully constructed composite consisting of a felt disk glued to a thin card disk (a bit like a concertina pad) and then covered with very thin flexible leather or fish skin. See HERE (http://www.windplus.co.uk/supplies/clarinet_pads.html).
(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
Maintenance of the cork would be a pain. On a clarinet they receive a certain amount of incidental moisture from the breath passing through the instrument but even then they can and do dry out and split or come adrift. Inside a melodeon I suspect the problem would be worse
Maybe a better option would be the balck nitrile used in "O" rings.
Steve
Still cork on my clarinet but it's of an older vintage (:)That's really unusual then; skin or leather covered felt/card composite pads for woodwind instruments have been around since the early part of the 19th century. They were developed by clarinet maker and player Iwan Müller in 1812.
Steve
Ideas from other threadsCertainly the aluminium board in my posh box gives a sharper tone (cuts into your ear like a chisel!) than another box from the same maker with a ply board. The transmission path is so short and wide from the reed to the outside air that I'm not convinced that the wood has as much effect on the tone - I could be wrong, of course. It would be interesting to compare if anyone made a board from an even more accoustically neutral composite, concrete perhaps? Presumably the Holy Grail for an experimenter would be a material so rigid and non-resonant it doesn't have any sympathetic vibration causing loss of enegy at the reed. Sound deadening materials for engine compartments use a composite of varying density rubbers sandwiching a lead foil layer. How about an ali/lead/ali sandwich?I have to say I'm deeply impressed by his approach to construction and the precision metalwork is very appealing ..... It's not totally incongruous for a musical instrument to have precision metalwork like that - look at any modern wind instrument with lots of keys on it, like a clarinet, flute or oboe. There's lots of bushes, bearings, levers and tiny screws, all custom made, none of your Heath Robinson bits of bent wire there... (and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
Show us, please, Ian.
I would but I get a message saying the upload folder is full -- can an admin fix this?
I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)
Ian (wearing my engineering hat)
I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)
Ian (wearing my engineering hat)
I want to see this design!
I'm working on building a flat mount reed pan for a 25 button (21+4) 2 voice, but it's made out of wood (I don't have access to a CNC). Basically a copy of the Preciosa that I have. Photos here (https://picasaweb.google.com/TeleMorris/BuildingAMiniMelodeon?authkey=Gv1sRgCPfg3veZqvGQJw).
Ed
I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)
Ian (wearing my engineering hat)
I want to see this design!
I'm working on building a flat mount reed pan for a 25 button (21+4) 2 voice, but it's made out of wood (I don't have access to a CNC). Basically a copy of the Preciosa that I have. Photos here (https://picasaweb.google.com/TeleMorris/BuildingAMiniMelodeon?authkey=Gv1sRgCPfg3veZqvGQJw).
Ed
Ok, got it... Interesting thought, you certainly use all available space on the interior side of the soundboard and very cleverly so. However, making a well functioning keyboard will be a very complex matter.
An interesting idea and I think that it could work. Would be interesting to try. However, the third voice might be tricky, since unless you wanted it to be enormous, they would have to be mounted in a block.
Actually, have you seen the pictures of the Schweizeorgeli? A reed box like that milled of aly might be interesting, if you could live with the potty mechanism. That could get you a third voice.
Ian, not a big thing, but I would start initialling and dating my pages now.
You never know when you will have that idea that it so good it gets stolen.
Though I do guess that a lot of ideas on mel.net are kind of presented as "open source"
(just because I am paranoid does not mean that there is not someone after me)
(maybe intellectual ideas paranoia is an americano thing)
And as soon as you do something like the Schweizeorgeli you've gone away from the whole flat-mounted reeds concept...
And as soon as you do something like the Schweizeorgeli you've gone away from the whole flat-mounted reeds concept...
I'm not so sure. All of the reeds are flat mounted in the Orgeli, in that the pallet lies in the same direction as the reed... rather than perpendicular as in a block.
So going back to very basics, does it have to be "melodeon" shaped?
The distinguishinf feature of a melodeon is it's push/pull diatonic right hand and it's bass end. Could these be handled better in a different physical structure?
This is Harry Geuns' hybrid bandoneon design with the buttons on the leading edge so to speak. http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/harrygeuns.htm (http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/harrygeuns.htm) (sorry but his website doesn't seem to let me quote the exact page, follow the link to "Hybrids" on the navigation bar) It's unisonoric (and I don't really consider it a bandoneon (:)) but it is a different approach.
I have also seen bandoneon shaped "concertinas" with chords on the bass end.
How wedded are we to the melodeon "look"?
Steve
But what obstacles are in the way? The levers I suppose, but they are just bits of metal, I can't imagine that they are hugely important in the sound given. The inside of the reedbox perhaps, although this may focus the sound in a pleasing way.
All I know is that the boxes I like the sound of best tend to have the least obstructions between the reeds and the ear (big pallet holes, this pallet board, open grille). Of course it's possible that like super-heavily-hopped American IPAs more is not always better and the flat-mounted reeds idea I've been suggesting will indeed sound too bright, but there's only one way to find out...
All I know is that the boxes I like the sound of best tend to have the least obstructions between the reeds and the ear (big pallet holes, this pallet board, open grille). Of course it's possible that like super-heavily-hopped American IPAs more is not always better and the flat-mounted reeds idea I've been suggesting will indeed sound too bright, but there's only one way to find out...
Ah, I think I know the answer to that one... get yourself a very large development budget? >:E
But what obstacles are in the way? The levers I suppose, but they are just bits of metal, I can't imagine that they are hugely important in the sound given. The inside of the reedbox perhaps, although this may focus the sound in a pleasing way.
Anthing beween the reed and the "outside world" will affect the sound, and this may or may not be in a "pleasing" way -- I doubt that much research has been done into this (except by building boxes "the way they're built") so the good/bad result is probably random, and usually in a case like this the odds are greatly in favour of messing things up rather than improving them. I know cassotto chambers deliberately add such cavities to "improve" the sound, but I didn't like the resulting dullness (or you could call it richness...) on the ones I've heard.
All I know is that the boxes I like the sound of best tend to have the least obstructions between the reeds and the ear (big pallet holes, this pallet board, open grille). Of course it's possible that like super-heavily-hopped American IPAs more is not always better and the flat-mounted reeds idea I've been suggesting will indeed sound too bright, but there's only one way to find out...
Ian
Jeez, Ukebert - quite a lot of work and you'd have to be handy too. Also those spectral analysers aren't hanging about loose. I think you're describing less an amateur hobbyist's evening diversion, more a systematic technical project that would be more suitable for a final year engineer. :|glug
A 50-100 watt laser cutter with the design processed through CorelDraw should do the job, albeit slowly. Using that technology I'd be tempted to use perspex rather than aluminium (cuts easier with a lower power laser). Again for the same reason possible MDF rather than plywood although there can be issues round cutting some grade of MDF that way.
Steve
Jeez, Ukebert - quite a lot of work and you'd have to be handy too. Also those spectral analysers aren't hanging about loose. I think you're describing less an amateur hobbyist's evening diversion, more a systematic technical project that would be more suitable for a final year engineer. :|glug
Jeez, Ukebert - quite a lot of work and you'd have to be handy too. Also those spectral analysers aren't hanging about loose. I think you're describing less an amateur hobbyist's evening diversion, more a systematic technical project that would be more suitable for a final year engineer. :|glug
Well I did suggest it! Spectral analysers you can buy software for, but it would be a nightmare to get repeatable results - if you were doing it properly you'd have to have something which maintains a constant pressure in the bellows. I reckon that you could get a very vague impression of the effect by simple measurements though, blind tests and so on. Would be vague.
Well I have a copy of solidworks, that's all you would need. It's a moderately expensive piece of software I believe (I got it free by careful persuasion) but it would do the job. Then just hire someone to do the work. I'd describe that as trivial though, as all you need is money!
There's nothing I can find *anywhere* about pallet board and body materials :-)
http://www.concertinaconnection.com/concertina%20reeds.htm
That sounds like it...
One example that I know of for sure is that the sound holes in the bass end cover form a Helmholtz resonator with the volume of the air inside the bass end, and this acts as a lowpass filter (which you do want to remove the treble spectrum and stop it obscuring the right hand) but with a peak around cutoff -- this can lead to an unpleasant "honky" sound from the bass end.
My Dony 3-row has smaller cover hole area and more internal volume, a lower resonant frequency and a less nasal sound (but is also more muffled) -- since the reed blocks in the Model 4 were based on the ones in my 3-row I know this isn't causing the difference.
But I doubt whether many box makers are aware of what's going on, at best they probably drill more holes until they got the sound they wanted --
Ian
One example that I know of for sure is that the sound holes in the bass end cover form a Helmholtz resonator with the volume of the air inside the bass end, and this acts as a lowpass filter (which you do want to remove the treble spectrum and stop it obscuring the right hand) but with a peak around cutoff -- this can lead to an unpleasant "honky" sound from the bass end.
My Dony 3-row has smaller cover hole area and more internal volume, a lower resonant frequency and a less nasal sound (but is also more muffled) -- since the reed blocks in the Model 4 were based on the ones in my 3-row I know this isn't causing the difference.
But I doubt whether many box makers are aware of what's going on, at best they probably drill more holes until they got the sound they wanted --
Ian
I may not be aware of much of what's "going on" ;) but even I have realized how much the bass end cover affects the sound. However, instead of drilling more holes I omit them all together (apart from necessary but relatively small openings for air and register buttons & bass strap) and place them on either side of the buttons on the front of the casing. I find that by doing this I get a more powerful bass sound, not "honky" at all and not in the least muffled. Interestingly, but maybe not surprisingly, there is a huge difference when the cover isn't screwed on tightly, resulting in a weaker and less attractive sound.
(Not that I am planning to, but what's wrong about someone building your perfect box??)
it would also explain the name of the growl box on a one-row, and the little trumpety jobs that show up on the bass end of Steirische boxes.
At the risk of repeating what's already been said . . . the big "resonance" impact is, then what happens beyond the pallets? From the Concertina Connection paper, and my own casual observations, the treble end grill, and the construction of the bass end box both seem to exert a significant influence on the final sound. This would explain the variety of choices builders make around grill design, grill material, and grill liners, or the absence thereof. It would also account for the variety of holes that show up on both ends of various box designs, including the ones that some makers now put on the fingerboard, and the ones that point backwards towards the player. And it would also explain the name of the growl box on a one-row, and the little trumpety jobs that show up on the bass end of Steirische boxes.
To put it another way: it's the bling that makes it sing.
it would also explain the name of the growl box on a one-row, and the little trumpety jobs that show up on the bass end of Steirische boxes.
This is all very interesting about the bass end.
The little metal cones in the "trumpety jobs" don't make much difference to the sound on a Steirische, but there is a hole in the middle of them (usually covered with thin-weave cloth) and that probably does make a big difference.
I might try some experiments with my Pokerwork, which is very much a "spare" box: cover the holes in the bass end plate, and make new holes in the front. I guess the thing to do is make holes one at a time, record and maybe measure the response as each hole is added and stop when the optimum sound is reached...
Interesting page on the Strasser site http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm (http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm)
It's also quite easy to think about how holes in different places distribute the sound, but one thing to remember is that anything small compared to a wavelength can't be directional.
Interesting page on the Strasser site http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm (http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm)
"the test results of universities and resonance research institutes have confirmed that the sound of a harmonica does not depend on the material of the body. We have accomplished lots of tests with different materials (Metal, plastic, diverse massive woods and plywoods) and that is why we could determine ourselves that the material of the body does not exercise any influence on the sound of the instrument."
Well, that settles that, then. :PhIt's also quite easy to think about how holes in different places distribute the sound, but one thing to remember is that anything small compared to a wavelength can't be directional.
If that was directed at my musings about retuning the bass cavity on my Pokerwork, fully undertood.
My intention was
(a) to try different sized holes for different resonant frequencies (this would affect the bass), and
(b) to get some higher frequency content out of the bass end directed at the audience.
2nd posting noted - thanks (:)
For the "21st century box a la Dedic", I've suggested a bass end stop that removes the thirds and replaces them with a doubled up fifth, but an octave away from the existing fifth instead of in unison. This should give the best of both worlds, assuming it's technically possible... :-)
(but is almost certainly impossible to retrofit to existing boxes because of the extra reeds and the sliding "swap stop")
To keep the chords sounding most similar in the two cases, this means the "normal" chord has the fifth as the lowest note, the root in the middle and the third as the highest one -- the stop then swaps out the third for the fifth above it. Ian
I'm wondering if what I'd really like is stops that changed A and B between major and minor. Ideally separately.
and another idea ...the Libouton i once played had 2 buttons next to each base. One for major, and one for the minor chord.I'm wondering if what I'd really like is stops that changed A and B between major and minor. Ideally separately.
and another idea ...the Libouton i once played had 2 buttons next to each base. One for major, and one for the minor chord.I'm wondering if what I'd really like is stops that changed A and B between major and minor. Ideally separately.
w
All of which raises the question as to whether we should just have a 36 or 48 button stradella bass.
Steve
All of which raises the question as to whether we should just have a 36 or 48 button stradella bass.
Steve
And a piano key keyboard
Whilst bowing to the superior knowledge of the above testers, my personal experience was different. When I bought my Dony I took it to bits to see why it was so much better than my Polkawork. All I could conclude was finish and superior fit. The wood inside the Dony was smoother, properly finished whereas the Polkawork was rough sawn. I sanded and sealed the inside of my Polkawork and the difference was dramatic. I agree that the material probably made no difference but having a sealed surface that reflected sound did make a difference.Interesting page on the Strasser site http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm (http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm)"the test results of universities and resonance research institutes have confirmed that the sound of a harmonica does not depend on the material of the body. We have accomplished lots of tests with different materials (Metal, plastic, diverse massive woods and plywoods) and that is why we could determine ourselves that the material of the body does not exercise any influence on the sound of the instrument."
Well, that settles that, then. :Ph
Lastly, can anyone find the thread (it was on melnet) for the guy who built what can only be described an off road version of the Hohner 114. He perhaps epitomises new thinking for melodeons.
I don't recall a 114 like that either, but Lester has a totally modded pokerwork: posh Italian reeds, chrome and paint job, lowered action, go faster stripes, the lot...
Whilst bowing to the superior knowledge of the above testers, my personal experience was different. When I bought my Dony I took it to bits to see why it was so much better than my Polkawork. All I could conclude was finish and superior fit. The wood inside the Dony was smoother, properly finished whereas the Polkawork was rough sawn. I sanded and sealed the inside of my Polkawork and the difference was dramatic. I agree that the material probably made no difference but having a sealed surface that reflected sound did make a difference.Interesting page on the Strasser site http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm (http://www.harmonika.com/en/wissen.htm)"the test results of universities and resonance research institutes have confirmed that the sound of a harmonica does not depend on the material of the body. We have accomplished lots of tests with different materials (Metal, plastic, diverse massive woods and plywoods) and that is why we could determine ourselves that the material of the body does not exercise any influence on the sound of the instrument."
Well, that settles that, then. :Ph
So back to topic, a plastic case should produce a brighter sound than a wood one. I've never seen inside the latest Hohner Xtreme models. Are they perhaps plastic ?
Lastly, can anyone find the thread (it was on melnet) for the guy who built what can only be described an off road version of the Hohner 114. He perhaps epitomises new thinking for melodeons.
Lastly, can anyone find the thread (it was on melnet) for the guy who built what can only be described an off road version of the Hohner 114. He perhaps epitomises new thinking for melodeons.
I recall a UK-based "Cajun" musician who pimped his HA-114s with lots of bling, but as far as I recall it was all cosmetic.
I recall a UK-based "Cajun" musician who pimped his HA-114s with lots of bling, but as far as I recall it was all cosmetic.Eezy Squeezy, maybe? ...the Doctor Who of melodeons.
I recall a UK-based "Cajun" musician who pimped his HA-114s with lots of bling, but as far as I recall it was all cosmetic.Eezy Squeezy, maybe? ...the Doctor Who of melodeons.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/429201605_64b3ebbb23.jpg) (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/419741382_42351542a9.jpg) (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/419741381_89ed7fd23a.jpg) (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/419741383_5d20cda636.jpg)
anyone ever seen one of these????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv6pjjdGvfg&NR=1
crazy...
A good instrument should be adaptable to lots of people's geometries. I am well aware that I am probably in the 95th percentile in terms of hand size, so it is ludicrous if I am one of the few who can use all four fingers. If is the case then it points to a major flaw in the physical ergonomics of the instrument. I am aware that some people will not take to using four fingers due to the way that their brain works, and I am aware that there are some who feel that their little finger is not strong enough (although this can be rectified), but it has shocked me somewhat as to the number of people who find four fingers physically uncomfortable. I think that if the box was to be redesigned, the bass side should not be in that position. Perhaps similar to the Schwyzerorgeli instead in rake.
Redesign of the left end to permit more 'dexterity' ;)A good instrument should be adaptable to lots of people's geometries. I am well aware that I am probably in the 95th percentile in terms of hand size, so it is ludicrous if I am one of the few who can use all four fingers. If is the case then it points to a major flaw in the physical ergonomics of the instrument. I am aware that some people will not take to using four fingers due to the way that their brain works, and I am aware that there are some who feel that their little finger is not strong enough (although this can be rectified), but it has shocked me somewhat as to the number of people who find four fingers physically uncomfortable. I think that if the box was to be redesigned, the bass side should not be in that position. Perhaps similar to the Schwyzerorgeli instead in rake.
Redesign of the left end to permit more 'dexterity' ;)A good instrument should be adaptable to lots of people's geometries. I am well aware that I am probably in the 95th percentile in terms of hand size, so it is ludicrous if I am one of the few who can use all four fingers. If is the case then it points to a major flaw in the physical ergonomics of the instrument. I am aware that some people will not take to using four fingers due to the way that their brain works, and I am aware that there are some who feel that their little finger is not strong enough (although this can be rectified), but it has shocked me somewhat as to the number of people who find four fingers physically uncomfortable. I think that if the box was to be redesigned, the bass side should not be in that position. Perhaps similar to the Schwyzerorgeli instead in rake.
Dexterity is not the only goal ;-)
If you play with a lot of push-pull "punch" like many English-stype players (me included) as opposed to the smoother Continental style (including Schwyzerorgeli) then there's a strong case for preferring bass buttons on the front of the bass end instead of the end, because the push-pull force is provided more by the hand and less by the fingers on the buttons -- having played both anglo concertina and meloedeon, concertina is much harder on the fingers if you really want to push the box.
It's perfectly possible to make significant ergonomic improvements to the bass end -- at least, compated to most boxes currently produced -- without a major rethink like moving the buttons onto the ends. Watch this space... ;-)
Ian
Hey, this beastie is only €800 ! Good price or what?
Sadly they don't seem to get to Ch. d'Ars. I was tempted to go Maastricht way (looks a very nice place for a weekend) and have a go. But I suspect the keyboard layout might blow my brains out ... http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/keyboardlayoutband.htm
As mentioned this stage was a bit of a surprise for me; when nudiefish asked me to fit a “mike system” I just said, “yes” without thinking much about it.
When I came to start to fit it I came to the very fast conclusion that I had never put one into this smaller size box (240mm x 150mm) that had 12 bass and slides, this causes the reed blocks to take up every last mm within the bellows cavity giving me very little room to move for the cabling down the inside of the bellows, eventually after a very frustrating day I got there with it.
Because of the 12 bass in such a small box I even had to put the stereo socket in a place where I would not normally do so, this time I had to have it fit within the bass mechanism rather than bellow it.
If I ever have to do this again on this size box, then I would run the first half of the cabling across the back folds then revert to the top for the next half.
After the initial frustration it works very well.
This interested me as the cabling looked very fiddly and I got to thinking why not create a frame (maybe thin aluminium to keep weight down) that sits inside the bellows to center the cable and then use a spiral cable that would expand with the bellows. I tried to create a small drawing to illustrate whet I mean. Putting plugs on both ends of the cable, to connect with sockets in the reed boxes would help with tuning to detach the bellows completely.
New development on the micrphone wiring front (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13287) this post is simply a link. click link, or picture below if you want to contribute to the new thread.Instead of leading the cable straight from one end to the other across the bellows, it would be much better to make it go top to bottom as well. Then the ratio between stretched and unstretched length is much less, and you wouldn't need any frame -- just attach it to (for example) the inside top of the bass end and the inside bottom of the treble end (where the reed blocks are less tall).As mentioned this stage was a bit of a surprise for me; when nudiefish asked me to fit a “mike system” I just said, “yes” without thinking much about it.
When I came to start to fit it I came to the very fast conclusion that I had never put one into this smaller size box (240mm x 150mm) that had 12 bass and slides, this causes the reed blocks to take up every last mm within the bellows cavity giving me very little room to move for the cabling down the inside of the bellows, eventually after a very frustrating day I got there with it.
Because of the 12 bass in such a small box I even had to put the stereo socket in a place where I would not normally do so, this time I had to have it fit within the bass mechanism rather than bellow it.
If I ever have to do this again on this size box, then I would run the first half of the cabling across the back folds then revert to the top for the next half.
After the initial frustration it works very well.
This interested me as the cabling looked very fiddly and I got to thinking why not create a frame (maybe thin aluminium to keep weight down) that sits inside the bellows to center the cable and then use a spiral cable that would expand with the bellows. I tried to create a small drawing to illustrate whet I mean. Putting plugs on both ends of the cable, to connect with sockets in the reed boxes would help with tuning to detach the bellows completely.
(http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13287.0;attach=12173;image) (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13287)
thank you for your your considered view, i was hoping for a little more enlightenment on the subject of 21st century design/ construction though.I am willing to accept any criticisms but would much like to hear of pros and cons
many thanks den
With only the experience of having built one melodeon and done a bit of work on a couple more, I must say that I like Emmanuel Pariselle's preferred method of holding the reeds in place with a small screw in the centre of each side. This makes them easy to adjust and/or remove and improves the resonance of the reeds (or so I am told by those more knowledgeable than I am.)
Haha, just had a wacky idea. How about valves which are a composite with a low coercivity (soft magnetic). ...
The notes in the chords on left end all sound at once, so why give them separate plumbing.
The 3D printing idea could be the best I've heard. Cost and reproducibility is there. You can create complex internal designs without carving or opening a thing. How to apply it would be the real innovation. I saw a Kickstarter for 3D printed highland pipes that looked pretty fantastic, and they were able to expand the range of the pipes using the design. But how to expand to a melodeon? Finger boards and buttons, sure. But where else? Arched/curved internal walls to change volume? Hybrid with wood to decrease weight? A waterproof melodeon for playing in the rain? If you can find a way to 3-D print the reeds....but thinking "outside of the box" (pun intended) is what's necessary to bring these things up to 21st century standards.
First suggested over here (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,14590.0/nowap.html). There's nothing new under the sun!
3D printed stuff isn't as strong as it might be, but it might be OK for a melodeon, and it's a very new technology that will become more useful as it gets faster and cheaper and better materials, so yes, at some point...
That thread also introduces the idea of milling a reed block/pallet board combination from solid Al.
Leaping smartly from the 'French' thread, why has new material for bellows not been taken up here? I just don't believe that the design of the melodeon can be improved much, the leap forward has to be in the materials used, and cardboard and tape for bellows really could do with a rethink; I find it hard to believe that there isn't a better material available for the job..
Clém Guais uses aluminium pallet boards and they looked as though they were milled, although I forgot to ask him. His reed blocks, however, are wooden.
What I meant by my statement was reedblocks and palletboard milled out of one piece of alumnium, not aluminium palletboards in general, which have certain advantages over wooden ones.Watch this space...
What I meant by my statement was reedblocks and palletboard milled out of one piece of alumnium, not aluminium palletboards in general, which have certain advantages over wooden ones.Watch this space...
Not really, a suitable slab of 10mm alloy isn't that expensive, and CNC milling from solid is perfectly normal for forming complex shapes -- in fact if you cost your time at a reasonable rate it might even work out cheaper than building it all out of wood, after it's set up you can just walk away and let it get on with it while you do something else.What I meant by my statement was reedblocks and palletboard milled out of one piece of alumnium, not aluminium palletboards in general, which have certain advantages over wooden ones.Watch this space...
Unless you have access to some fancy extrusions, and maybe even then, that's a lot of aluminium getting wasted.
Also, aluminium kerf can be collected and recycled, so it's not really wasted. However, wood waste/kerf is much less practicable to re-use.Not really, a suitable slab of 10mm alloy isn't that expensive, and CNC milling from solid is perfectly normal for forming complex shapes -- in fact if you cost your time at a reasonable rate it might even work out cheaper than building it all out of wood, after it's set up you can just walk away and let it get on with it while you do something else.What I meant by my statement was reedblocks and palletboard milled out of one piece of alumnium, not aluminium palletboards in general, which have certain advantages over wooden ones.Watch this space...
Unless you have access to some fancy extrusions, and maybe even then, that's a lot of aluminium getting wasted.
It would be nice to have a box with easily exchangable reed blocks. The read blocks are enclosed in their own housing and can be exchanged quickly, for example to switching from D/G to Eb/Bb. Maybe the reed block's housing could be designd is like drawer of a cupboard.
Watching this video of Peter Browne and Tim Edey (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6V1ki_D1Io) it struck me that Peter's left hand is way up at the top of the case, far away from the buttons, which he doesn't use at all, as Tim is handling the melody chores here, and presumably to have that much great control over the bellows. This got me to thinking, why have the buttons in the middle? Why not up at the top? It's certainly not going to happen with a PA and 48+ buttons but with these little 8 - 18 button jobs we play why not?
Am curious too if any put their left hand up top like Peter. I find it does help a bit. So many other things hinder my playing though... ;D
I always find it fascinating to listen to design discussions between my son, who is a furniture designer/maker, and his fiancee who is a designer. She tends to go for looks over functionality whilst my son tends to go for functionality combined with eye appeal and ease of manufacture. Things which are needlessly complicated simply to achieve a different look don't get made because they are wasteful of materials, the design "twist" often affects functionality adversely and often reduces the potential sales market. The classic from his days at university were some of the table designs emanating from the design students. A few had a hole in the centre of the table-top through which a pyramid of table-legs would poke through. Hard to make, tricky to fix the table-top to the legs and the hole hugely reduces the available surface on which to put things. There are good reasons why tables have simple flat tops!
So maybe the question in relation to boxes should be: "Why would you not place the buttons in the centre?". In designing and manufacturing something mechanical I think there is a natural tendency to go for symmetry since it usually looks better and, curiously, often seems to work better too. It avoids having to design awkward/needless mechanisms to accommodate an offset arrangement. Having a button or lever close to the thing it is operating makes good mechanical sense.
And as soon as you shift the bass/chord buttons you run into other problems - where do you place the air button and how do you attach the strap to comfortably accommodate a different hand position? These aren't insurmountable problems but in solving them you might end up with an instrument with the same aesthetic qualities as a pig's bottom. Mind you...a pig's rear is at least symmetrical and very functional! :D
Opinion? Well, quick look, it looks very interesting blues-wise.
http://www.kniri.ch/de/bluesaccordion.aspx
For a start you get the standard major blues G7 D7 and C7 chords, the latter on draw, and mixolydian scales on G,C. Both standard blues technique. On D they tend to play more far out things. 'altered' isn't there. It's same notes/mode of C# melodic and the notes don't do that far. (would be squeaky anyway) but plenty to go for.
The flattened notes seem to be in upper octaves. That might work too - "out" notes are often played there, essentially as extensions to the base chord. it might not be quite blues as we know it, but "there ain't not rules 'xcept don't play a major 3 on a minor chord"
Minor blues are catered for on the pull. It'd be a challenge to sort a bass end for it (unisonorics?) but I like the way you can play in C, F or Bb in the higher octaves. Very clever.
ºG/ºA♭ ¹B♭/¹C ¹C♯/¹E♭ ¹F/¹F♯ ¹A♭/²B♭ ²B/²C♯ ²E♭/E ²F♯/²A♭ ³A/³B ³C♯/³D
E♭/F♯ ºG/¹A ¹B/¹C ¹D/¹E ¹F/¹G ²A/²B♭ ²C/²D ²E♭/²F ²G/²A♭ ³B♭/³C ³D♭/³E♭Re: position of bass buttons, I have a thing with my Lucia, stradella bass - the chords you want to play most, G/D/A/Em/Bm/etc are at the top end of the case, close to where the bass strap joins with the box, so this is where the hand spends most of it's time - in the top half of the box. In practice, this is a pain because the strap is much closer to the box at the top and bottom of the bass end, hence less flexible and harder to move the hand about. Not undoable, and with time the strap has eased, but certainly not an advertisement for moving standard bass buttons away from the centre...
Cheers,
Clive
Deeply interested. Alu blocks was an early idea in this "nothing barred" thread, though it didn't seem to come together until Ian's post last june. Great to see a practical manifestation! Were they computer control milled?Unfortunately it all seems to have gone quiet as far as progress on the milled-ali-reed-pan box I was discussing is concerned... :-(
But these are - sort of modular sub-blocks? How do you fix them in without vibration and those "wolf" notes referred to earlier? Otherwise you are perhaps just moving the "fix" issue along a bit to a different component.
This looks really interesting …
Unfortunately it all seems to have gone quiet as far as progress on the milled-ali-reed-pan box I was discussing is concerned... :-(
Unfortunately it all seems to have gone quiet as far as progress on the milled-ali-reed-pan box I was discussing is concerned... :-(
Needs someone with both the skill and inclination I guess. I try to keep this tread going, albeit slowly and have also copied what seemed useful (however wacky) ideas in from elsewhere. Read the whole lot through this morning - it's actually become a resource?
But many of the strokes of genius still await physical incarnation, yes.
Would 3D-printed blocks work? :|glug
Deeply interested. Alu blocks was an early idea in this "nothing barred" thread, though it didn't seem to come together until Ian's post last june. Great to see a practical manifestation! Were they computer control milled?
But these are - sort of modular sub-blocks? How do you fix them in without vibration and those "wolf" notes referred to earlier? Otherwise you are perhaps just moving the "fix" issue along a bit to a different component.
This looks really interesting …
Deeply interested. Alu blocks was an early idea in this "nothing barred" thread, though it didn't seem to come together until Ian's post last june. Great to see a practical manifestation! Were they computer control milled?
But these are - sort of modular sub-blocks? How do you fix them in without vibration and those "wolf" notes referred to earlier? Otherwise you are perhaps just moving the "fix" issue along a bit to a different component.
This looks really interesting …
Yes, CNC made. Spent last 6 months learning all about CNC, plus the CAD and CAM packages - now finally in a position to start making stuff!
These were just test pieces. Currently working on full reed-blocks for 12 bass.
I assume you're getting the actual milling done by an engineering shop?
I assume you're getting the actual milling done by an engineering shop?
I'm actually doing it all myself ... that's why it's taken so long.
3-axis CNC mill using a 2.5D milling strategy (no fancy 5-axis milling I'm afraid.)
Had a few issues with feeds and speeds and broke a few carbide cutters on the way, but seem to have this under control now.
Work-holding/clamping is the current headache!
One of the nice little touches on this box is a gravity-operated internal bellows lock. Turn it upside down and the internal latch engages. Turn it into playing orientation and it drops open. Simple, but a neat trick! Graham
Also, aluminium kerf can be collected and recycled, so it's not really wasted. However, wood waste/kerf is much less practicable to re-use.
link to discussion of the Briggs "carbon fibre" melodeon (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=19129.new#new)Ooh, as an engineer I really respect that... ;-)
.. all sorts of engineering skills...Including writing a half-decent spec before he starts (:) :||:
his attempts to design lighter weight bass reedblocks as led him to a trianglular shape. someone should mention the fact that the reed tips swing,and require some clearance within the reedblock. a new mind can come up with many ideas ,which is great.there then as to be a process of testing ( mentally or physically) to weed out the real gems... all sorts of engineering skills...Including writing a half-decent spec before he starts (:) :||:
his attempts to design lighter weight bass reedblocks as led him to a triangular shape. someone should mention the fact that the reed tips swing,and require some clearance within the reedblock.
Is there some good reason why you can't mount the reeds with the tips towards the fat edge of the block?I was thinking that there would be, as often the valveless smaller reeds are inverted on the last two reeds on the block, I'm assuming that the others aren't for a good reason. Or is it just so the big reeds don't bash into those on the next block, as they are often closely mounted? I've had to have one of my treble blocks shaved at a better angle so that the blocks can tilt away from each other more for this reason.
Is there some good reason why you can't mount the reeds with the tips towards the fat edge of the block?I was thinking that there would be, as often the valveless smaller reeds are inverted on the last two reeds on the block, I'm assuming that the others aren't for a good reason. Or is it just so the big reeds don't bash into those on the next block, as they are often closely mounted? I've had to have one of my treble blocks shaved at a better angle so that the blocks can tilt away from each other more for this reason.
It’s squeezeboxes, Jim, but not as we know them.😳
Great tune and playing! But what key is his box? and make? Tune is D minor? Am I hearing a low C# which isn't there?
His box is pretty new and made by Jérémie Vanglabeke. It is possible to change the mode of the scale via the buttons behind the fingerboard.
A big step forward! 👍
I attach a video of a fella on the Facebook “concertinas are cool” group playing a 3-D printed instrument. I understand that it is not just the casing, but also the reeds! I’m not sure about the buttons or straps. The innovator is Edward Jay.
It’s one of those Facebook videos, you might need to be a member to watch it 🥴
There is mention of Chris Marriott of this parish, having played the instrument. Would be interested in his feedback? 🙂
https://www.facebook.com/100003591262656/posts/4240044839458516/ (https://www.facebook.com/100003591262656/posts/4240044839458516/)
A big step forward! 👍There are YouTube videos of the concertina(s), so you don't need to sign up with FaceBook:
I attach a video of a fella on the Facebook “concertinas are cool” group playing a 3-D printed instrument. I understand that it is not just the casing, but also the reeds...
It’s one of those Facebook videos, you might need to be a member to watch it...
I also know (private email) that he's recently developed an Anglo version...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsE5pnSwS4E
The instrument in the facebook video is an Anglo.Ah! I couldn't look-see as I don't do FaceBook...
I'm not sure that any plastic has sufficient endurance with the constant flexing that happens at bellows corners. Leather is remarkably durable stuff.
We rely on specially formed chrome plated L shaped metal clips to hold the corners of the bellows in shape and to cause air tightness......these, with age corode
and form unsightly Copper residue from the plating process.
Before bellows tape is applied, metal corners can be rubbed down with a Scotchpad or something similiar to give a nice bright brass finish.
The laminated fabric construction used to make the bellows that protect CNC axes survives many thousands of work hours,Almost certainly not air tight though?
The laminated fabric construction used to make the bellows that protect CNC axes survives many thousands of work hours,Almost certainly not air tight though?
a melodeon that could be played in the rain.A Hohner Pokerwork
a melodeon that could be played in the rain.A Hohner Pokerwork
Leather is remarkably durable stuff.
Very little on advances in bellows construction in the … previous 250 or so posts 🤔
Any and all new ideas are welcome …
[/quote
Thats why I suggested plastic bellows.
I did not mean as someone thought, just the panels but one complete unit.
To be honest I think the answer lies in an electronic accordion/ melodeon and am aware that Roland have already invented it.
I say this as electronics can provide purcussion and backing tracks etc which has got to be great fun.
More importantly we all live huddled up close to neighbours in our ever smaller more compact houses and we have to live together. To be able to practice your melodeon with ear phones is a great plus I think?
On the bellows front there just has to be something out there that would work as well but not so labour intensive.
Concertina builders have it made as there are already circular plastic bellows in service, just turn the sound boxes in a lathe. Voila...done away with hexagons.
...To be honest I think the answer lies in an electronic accordion/ melodeon and am aware that Roland have already invented it.
I say this as electronics can provide purcussion and backing tracks etc which has got to be great fun.
More importantly we all live huddled up close to neighbours in our ever smaller more compact houses and we have to live together. To be able to practice your melodeon with ear phones is a great plus I think?...
Thats why I suggested plastic bellows.
I did not mean as someone thought, just the panels but one complete unit...
...On the bellows front there just has to be something out there that would work as well but not so labour intensive.
Concertina builders have it made as there are already circular plastic bellows in service, just turn the sound boxes in a lathe. Voila...done away with hexagons.
...However I have never seen rectangular types.
I dont think they exist...
I wonder what concertina manufacturers have done. I've never seen anything like that. A quick search didn't bring anything useful up.
There you go, no more rusty corners, high-tech(?) bellows from clothes dryer flexible exhaust duct !Well the idea is there but they are really ghastly.
https://www.facebook.com/CarrefourMondialAccordeon/videos/1386354495102831 (https://www.facebook.com/CarrefourMondialAccordeon/videos/1386354495102831)
Probably best used on dry-tuned boxes... ;)
Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #261 on: Yesterday at 10:15:33 PM »
ReplyQuote
Quote from: tirpous on Yesterday at 04:54:17 PM
There you go, no more rusty corners, high-tech(?) bellows from clothes dryer flexible exhaust duct !
https://www.facebook.com/CarrefourMondialAccordeon/videos/1386354495102831
Probably best used on dry-tuned boxes... ;)
Well the idea is there but they are really ghastly.
I had in mind a harder plastic which is flexible but also retains its stiffness like card.