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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Brimley on July 05, 2012, 10:40:39 AM
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I've had to start thinking about a few issues relating to insurance recently, and following Chris R's post on another thread, I realised that it might be of interest to discuss. I've had conflicting advice from different people about what to do.
I have £5m PLI for our ceilidh band 'Free Range Legs' from Musicians Insurance Services, at £68.50 per year, and am very happy with this. However I also play other instruments in a concert band (the Sheri Kershaw Band) and we have recently been told by a venue manager that we cannot play there without PLI. I expressed some surprise at this, and I asked him exactly what risks he wanted covered. He seemed vague but intransigent, saying all bands have to comply nowadays. I checked this with MIS and Newmoon, and this seems to be an increasing trend amongst venue managers, to pass on the cost of any risks.
I believe that for dances, there is a significant risk involved of injury to dancers, and PLI is sensible. But for a concert band, it seems to me frankly over the top. The risks the manager mentioned were these: Electrical risks from equipment (but isn't PAT testing and perhaps a warning notice a safeguard against this?); Equipment falling over and damaging his venue (which is unlikely to be a big cost, and if it were to happen, surely we would pay for it as would any responsible guest, insurance isn't needed?); and: People tripping over the equipment (But it's pretty obvious it's there, and any band negligence issue would be easily dealt with by bright coloured warning notices, I would have thought). Damage to eardrums might be another risk, but we are not a loud band at all.
For separate bands, even with common equipment, I'm reluctantly coming to the conclusion that we're going to have to bow to the inevitable, and get separate PLI, even though I don't really see why it's necessary for a concert band.
So the next question was, how does this work, with common equipment and/or personnel? I've been advised that the answer is that the band (under that name) is covered, which includes any deputies they may have from time to time. But it does not cover the individuals normally in the band playing professionally under another name, nor the equipment the band uses being used elsewhere.
My next thought was, if I'm going to get extended insurance, why not see if I can get cover for loss, damage and theft to instruments and equipment while I'm at it? Newmoon gave me a good quote for all this, around £300 including similar PLI. A snag seems to be that if I want to go out and play on my own and get paid, I and my instruments would still not be covered. But my household or car insurance might cover certain things.
Another possibility is joining MU, where you get personal PLI cover and can add other risks, and for one person it would probably be quite a bit cheaper than £300 this way, but the problem would be that everybody in the band would have to join separately.
This all seems fraught with complexity, so I thought I'd ask what other Members do about all this, because I bet many others are in exactly the same boat! The fundamental problem seems to be that because typically musicians play with all sorts of other people, it's difficult to pin down the apportionment of any risks and insure against it.
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In the ceilidh band I currently play in, we also do other gigs or play with other people separately, and were increasingly finding that venues were asking for PLI. After looking around, we came to the conclusion that the cheapest, safest and most comprehensive way of being covered was for those of us who weren't already members to join the M.U. and get the coverage that way. We just did that a few years ago, and haven't looked into it since, so if anyone else has more recent experience I'd be glad to hear it too...
Cheers,
Guy
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we came to the conclusion that the cheapest, safest and most comprehensive way of being covered was for those of us who weren't already members to join the M.U.
That's definitely the best way. There is more to MU membership than insurance - they have useful resources including legal advice and help with contract disputes.
We have one ceilidh band as an affiliate member of EFDSS - that gets you the same insurance as MIS for the band and caller and they don't need to know who is in the band. Mary and I are both MU members; in another ceilidh band trio the third member is also covered by MU.
There are plenty of potential liabilities for concert bands:
The risks the manager mentioned were these: Electrical risks from equipment (but isn't PAT testing and perhaps a warning notice a safeguard against this?)
If somebody is injured, you are liable whether or not your equipment has been tested, and see answer to next point...
Equipment falling over and damaging his venue (which is unlikely to be a big cost, and if it were to happen, surely we would pay for it as would any responsible guest, insurance isn't needed
What about equipment falling over and damaging people? Personal injury claims can be huge.
People tripping over the equipment (But it's pretty obvious it's there, and any band negligence issue would be easily dealt with by bright coloured warning notices, I would have thought).
They might try to hold you liable, and your warning notices will help you in a dispute, but ultimately it could be down to your lawyers against theirs.
In that connection, we publish a "health and safety policy" (sometime called a risk assessment) sent out with contracts which in part puts the boot on the other foot and requires venues to have safe wiring (most village halls are OK now but I've seen some very dodgy barns...) and also makes it clear that the safety of children is the responsibility of their parents, not the band.
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What a sad, litigious, petty, officious world we sometimes live in.
A mate of mine is over in Canada, and the regular session in the pub had to stop becasue the local council insisted on every musician having to buy a Buskers license! They then applied the same rule to the Morris team - every dancer had to pay for their own license.
Bring on the revolution........ ;)
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Why? Morris dancing is specifically exempted from entertainment licencing ;)
My Newmoon documentation has come. My £47 covers £8800 of kit worldwide, professional as well as amateur, and public liability - though this probably only with respect to the instruments. With respect to Anahata's comment on MU - I don't do gigs, but everyone says how good they are :|glug
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It seems that if there is a way for venues to pass some of the overheads on, they will. Sign of the times, I fear.
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Why? Morris dancing is specifically exempted from entertainment licencing ;)
Not in Canada!
MU - I don't do gigs, but everyone says how good they are :|glug
Expensive option if you're not gigging, but by the time you're making enough £ that you think you ought to be telling the taxman about it, an MU subscription is just another expense to offset against your income.
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Thanks for everyone's interesting responses - here's a few comments of mine:
There are plenty of potential liabilities for concert bands:
Quote from: Chris Brimley on Today at 10:40:39 AM
The risks the manager mentioned were these: Electrical risks from equipment (but isn't PAT testing and perhaps a warning notice a safeguard against this?)
If somebody is injured, you are liable whether or not your equipment has been tested, and see answer to next point...
But how do these people get injured? Equipment doesn't just fall over, it's generally pushed, which surely greatly reduces the culpability of the band? And even if it is pushed, electrical safety issues for the third party seem unlikely.
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Equipment falling over and damaging his venue (which is unlikely to be a big cost, and if it were to happen, surely we would pay for it as would any responsible guest, insurance isn't needed
What about equipment falling over and damaging people? Personal injury claims can be huge.
Agreed, but that's the next issue. My point here is that the venue manager's risk from the band is pretty small, and any responsible band would deal with any damage issues they cause anyway.
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People tripping over the equipment (But it's pretty obvious it's there, and any band negligence issue would be easily dealt with by bright coloured warning notices, I would have thought).
They might try to hold you liable, and your warning notices will help you in a dispute, but ultimately it could be down to your lawyers against theirs.
In that connection, we publish a "health and safety policy" (sometime called a risk assessment) sent out with contracts which in part puts the boot on the other foot and requires venues to have safe wiring (most village halls are OK now but I've seen some very dodgy barns...) and also makes it clear that the safety of children is the responsibility of their parents, not the band.
I like the concept of the H&S Policy. And I've had the issue of unruly kids recently - small youngsters started tugging at our speaker cables the other day, and I eventually stopped them by shouting at their benignly watching mother, but the risk was to our equipment, not to their health - the power cables were well out of the way. But the snag is this - the audience won't know about the policy unless the client tells them when they buy tickets, which is very unlikely, so how does it help? And the dodgy barn issue is not a third party risk so much as a danger for the band, even if you're using an appropriate earth trip switch.
It seems that if there is a way for venues to pass some of the overheads on, they will. Sign of the times, I fear.
Yes, I agree, this isn't fair on bands who aren't actually posing any significant risk.
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I like the concept of the H&S Policy.
Ours is on our web site here: http://www.fendragon.co.uk/safety.php
Feel free to copy, adapt and/or improve!
It started off as a response to venues who asked about PLI and PAT testing, but it seemed worth summarizing a few other relevant issues, jut to remind the pen-pushers and jobsworths that safety is about more than ticking a couple of boxes on a sheet of paper, and hopefully to give web site visitors and clients a better impression of being reasonably competent and professional.
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Anahata, I do like that - that confirms all the things I'd want to say, and shows risk assessments have been carried out, and thanks for the offer, which I will take up!
I wish it meant we don't need insurance, though!
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Equipment falling over and damaging his venue (which is unlikely to be a big cost, and if it were to happen, surely we would pay for it as would any responsible guest, insurance isn't needed?)
This is the exact reason I decided to get PLI. WE were setting up on a stage for a PTA ceilidh at a v posh private school, two of us lifted one of our elderly and heavy speakers on to its stand when I noted the brand new Bosendorfer Grand directly below in the hall, one small slip and it would have been v expensive.
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Over the course of too many years I've seen too many "accidents" to rule out anything happening! I've seen a lead singer electrocuted on-stage at a festival when all the mikes (and stands) went live; someone once placed a litre glass of beer on top of my bass stack at a gig in Holland where we were playing in the middle of a hall and four notes later we had broken glass and beer on the dance floor on which someone then slipped; at another gig the lead guitarist tripped over a cable, fell against the speakers and knocked them off stage fortunately not hitting anyone.
There are so many ways to screw up that insurance (even if not used) is worth it for the peace of mind. Personal injury cmpensation amounts can be mind blowing.
Steve
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Oggiesnr, aren't most of those incidents 1st party risks to band members, which wouldn't actually have been covered by PLI?
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Yes, PLI doesn't cover band members against injury, but Steve also cited examples where others were at risk.
It doesn't happen often, but once could be enough to bankrupt you. Anyway it's required by some venues, and it no use arguing with them that it doesn't make sense. And yes, it is a way for the venue to avoid reponsibility for anything it can get away with, and people are litigious and it's all very sad really.
To add to the point about unsupervised children: we once played for a wedding where the speaker stands had to be near the edge of a cramped stage, and a 13 year old boy climbed up and started tugging at the leg of one of the stands. He was a nutcase who should probably have been in psychiatric care, or at least on ADHD medication, but he was there and his parents were busy chattering to their friends. We could have cheerfully taken him out and lashed him to a lamp post or worse but you can't do that kind of thing so we had to keep watch and and shoo him away each time he came back. That's one example of why we have a contract rider clause about supervision of children. Not that it helps, except if there's trouble we can point to it and the client's signature and they can't say they weren't warned.
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Oggiesnr, aren't most of those incidents 1st party risks to band members, which wouldn't actually have been covered by PLI?
Example one was band only agreed, example two could be called either way and the legal bill in defending it could have been large, example three, if the speaker had hit an audience member, would have been the band's problem.
The bigger problem I was trying to highlight was that you may not think that anything can go wrong but things can and do.
Steve
PS The company that set up the faulty equipment in example one were liable, if the equipment had been owned by the band and the singer was an employee of the band then the band would have been liable, not likely to happen at our level but worth bearing in mind if you are providing equipment for your band, you could be personally liable if it goes bad.
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I believe the point of having PLI is to cover you for the very remote chance that some calamity befalls which you have no way of predicting. That is why you can have a premium of as little as £68 to give you cover of several million.
Common sense and normal care and attention allows you to avoid most of the obvious and predictable risks. For me insurance is to protect you against a financial disaster, that might end up with loss of home and bankruptcy or even something on a smaller scale that would cause hardship, but for smaller risks I'm prepared to take care and be responsible for my own risks. So my house is insured against fire etc, and my car is insured for third part risks (its not worth enough to justify more) and that approach meant that I never got ripped off by PPI insurance and I always refused those insurance schemes that you used to get offered when you bought an electrical appliance.
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We live in an increasingly litigious society. If you play in a band for ceilidhs and other gigs, even if only occasionally, I cannot recommend too strongly that all band members join the Musicians' Union (http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/). It currently costs £14.75 per month, which I personally think is money well spent.
Among the many benefits (http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/join-the-mu/benefits/) of membership, you get personal Public Liability Insurance up to £10 million, Personal Injury Insurance (I can't remember exactly how much for, but it is substantial) and you get All Risks unspecified instruments and equipment insurance for up to £2000. The latter is a useful buffer but if you need more cover, MU members get preferential rates for further All Risks insurance.
In the event of something going badly wrong, the MU will support you with legal assistance.
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I accept the consensus view which seems to be that PLI is necessary for concert bands, which leaves me still wondering what the best way is to do it.
I agree that MU gives a comprehensive service, but if your main aim is to get PLI covered, you do have to look closely at the cost. My dance band has 5 members, but with two regular deputies, so at £14.75 per month that would cost us £1239 per year! And if I now add the other two members of the other band, plus our 1 deputy, that makes a total of £1770.
Quite frankly, that's far too expensive for us. Like Theo, my main aim in being insured is to avoid potential bankruptcy through some unpredictable future injury claim. Risks to my own instruments and equipment are secondary, and usually under my control and care. Therefore it seems to me that another PLI policy for the other band is the way forward (total £137pa). As I said earlier, it seems to me that the main snag is that these wouldn't cover me for playing in other collaborations or solo, and I wondered how others tackle these issues?
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I agree that MU gives a comprehensive service, but if your main aim is to get PLI covered, you do have to look closely at the cost. My dance band has 5 members, but with two regular deputies, so at £14.75 per month that would cost us £1239 per year! And if I now add the other two members of the other band, plus our 1 deputy, that makes a total of £1770.
Quite frankly, that's far too expensive for us.
Yes - if you put it in those terms it seems expensive. However, the MU membership should be an individual's responsibility, not the band's. Once a player has MU membership, the benefits apply to that member and are effective in any performance/teaching situation at any time and are not just restricted to one band. The MU member can play in any situation and be secure in the knowledge that they are covered by PLI/PI etc., even if the band in general are not covered.
As I said earlier, it seems to me that the main snag is that these wouldn't cover me for playing in other collaborations or solo, and I wondered how others tackle these issues?
This is exactly what MU membership is for!
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I guess I'm not denigrating the work that MU do, and for full professionals, yes, I can see the advantages. But it seems to me there's a separate market covering the 'serious amateur' for want of better words, and I don't think insurers have quite got their head round the issues yet.
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... the 'serious amateur' ...
"Semi-professional part-time folk musician"?
If Newmoon and/or MIS are following this, it would be interesting to hear from them.
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I guess I'm not denigrating the work that MU do, and for full professionals, yes, I can see the advantages. But it seems to me there's a separate market covering the 'serious amateur' for want of better words, and I don't think insurers have quite got their head round the issues yet.
(:) a 'Friendly Society' for non professional musicians on the lines of The Incorporated Society of Musicians (http://www.ism.org/) perhaps ?
I hesitate to use the word 'amateur as I've heard 'hobby' musicians give as good a performance as some professionals ;)
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If Newmoon and/or MIS are following this, it would be interesting to hear from them.
I think they may well be. I hear there is an interesting product available at a good price per band member, if you buy full instrument insurance at the same time.
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If Newmoon and/or MIS are following this, it would be interesting to hear from them.
I think they may well be. I hear there is an interesting product available at a good price per band member, if you buy full instrument insurance at the same time.
See my post in the other insurance thread (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8413.msg121740.html#msg121740)
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I'm afraid they wouldn't have come anywhere near such a good price for me, Lester.
We've just decided, weighing it all up, just to go for the MIS £68.50 band PLI cover.
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I'm afraid they wouldn't have come anywhere near such a good price for me, Lester.
We've just decided, weighing it all up, just to go for the MIS £68.50 band PLI cover.
My price is not special it is their standard rates.
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That's odd, then - I was asked not to reveal the quoted rates, and will honour that, but they would have worked out considerably more.
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But we don't broker insurance here, do we? We ring up and get a quote :P
Newmoon = 0845 072 8535 http://www.newmooninsurance.com, worldwide and "melnet discount"!
Perhaps others could post their favourites and we have a list .. :|glug
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But we don't broker insurance here, do we? We ring up and get a quote
That one went over my head a bit, Chris, because I think that's what everyone's been doing. What seems to be happening is that different quotes are being given out. Nothing wrong in that, there's probably sound commercial reasons. But equally, no one can complain if a forum such as this exchanges useful information about the choices available, as you suggest, and I would hope that wise insurers would realise there's a good market here, and it's worth their while listening to what the punters really want so that they can offer competitive and consistent products. And indeed, I'm hoping that's exactly what they are doing.
Indeed if they are doing this, how about an insurer offering PLI to an individual rather than to a band name, at an attractive rate, allowing him/her to be covered in different bands or solo? I think a lot of people would go for this, if the basic premium was in the £20-£30 pa range.
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Agreed - I seem to get some discount myself - hence no rates quoted above. One has little leverage as an individual. The best course is to use the market and get competitive quotes. I meant us to put together a simple list of insurers with contact details
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........... how about an insurer offering PLI to an individual rather than to a band name, at an attractive rate, allowing him/her to be covered in different bands or solo? I think a lot of people would go for this, if the basic premium was in the £20-£30 pa range.
I got PLI cover for £1 million from Allianz Musical Insurance added onto my instrument insurance with them. Cost an extra £35 and the total premium is paid in 12 monthly instalments by DD so it doesn't hurt too much (:) The instruments are covered worldwide but the PLI is UK only.
They were happy to add the PLI on even though I explained that I don't usually do any paid performances, just play solo at local fundraising events for free. Covers me if some twit trips over any instrument/case/equipment owned and being used by me :Ph ...... and if I did do a paid gig, solo or as a band member, I'm still covered ;D :|||:
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Interesting, anlej. Checking out their website the premiums increase steeply - for £5m PLI is £125. However these premiums also include (a fairly limited) personal accident cover, which some may find interesting.
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(:) best to call any insurer direct and get a specific quote for your own requirements.
When I rang Allianz to add the PLI to the instrument cover they went through the details of where I usually played and whether any of my instruments needed a power source ( thankfully no (:) ) so I assume the risk factor was taken into account when setting the premium. :D :|||:
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I had an interesting chat with the MIS guy just now about PLI. He feels that individual policies might cause problems for lawyers because the legal entity that gets sued is the band, and it wouldn't be clear who was responsible.
He was also clear on responsibilities - if venue managers think that they can offload their own risks by insisting that bands get their own PLI, they are wrong. Likewise, if parents are irresponsible enough to let their kids play with equipment, the parents would probably be the ones held to blame. And taking reasonable precautions is the most important issue for the band - this is really why folk performers get massive discounts on PLI - it seems we are just more responsible (!,?)
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And taking reasonable precautions is the most important issue for the band - this is really why folk performers get massive discounts on PLI - it seems we are just more responsible (!,?)
"Reasonable precautions" in this case including things like not playing typical pub rock venues.
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Just to bump this up ;)
Just to clarify - SOME members have better rates than others purely because when we started out the rates for boxes were quite frankly too low.
Now rather than shooting the prices up for those who got in the door 1st, we have kept these rates and will continue to do so. That's why some newer inquiries might be a little bit higher, but still easily the lowest in the market in terms of all risks for instruments.
PUBLIC LIABILITY
As this seems a bit of a bone of contention at the moment i thought i'd put some thoughts down in writing for you guys, so if someone does a search it should show up and hopefully provide some useful information :)
Public Liability (PL) is not a legal requirement, however many venues are now asking for performers to cover themselves against these types of accidents as sadly there is always someone to blame these days...
PL will cover injury caused to 3rd parties by the performers or their equipment. It also covers your equipment against damaging the venue so for example: if you have a PA system that shorted and burned the venue down (worst case scenario, i appreciate - but just to paint a picture) then you will be covered for this also.
Now, we offer cover for individuals for around £21 (£1,000,000 of cover) per annum, along with instrument insurance (which can be as little or as much as you like, essentially). The insurance will follow you around - so whatever band you play in for as many shows as you like a year, the insurance is in place. This does not matter if you are paid to play or not. We make no definition between them and rates are the same.
Band insurance is obviously slightly different because the added risk of extra people equipment etc. Band liability insurance up to £1,000,000 per year is about £125.00. Now this covers the performing band but not the individual members if they went off and did other things with other bands. This is where you need to be very clear with insurers as lots of people have been getting confused and receiving individual quotes for bands and band quotes for individuals.
Musicians union its well worth the money if you make use of the benefits. Although obviously if you are more of a weekend warrior like myself then its an expensive option.
Hopefully that clarifies a few bits, but i would suggest as PL insurance is going to become more and more relevant to performers that we start some sort of sticky FAQ regarding it - just to avoid a repeat of information in the future.
If anyone has got any questions then post away, i will keep my eye on this and offer advice if required
All the Best
Joe
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Joe of Newmoon, that really is very helpful! Just a few questions:
What's your view on the suggestion that individual insurances cause lawyers problems because the contract is with the band and apportioning blame might be difficult?
What are your instrument rates, and what about PA equipment?
How would a band cope with the demand from a client or venue manager that the band carries PLI -
In your experience does individual cover work?
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Hi Chris,
What's your view on the suggestion that individual insurances cause lawyers problems because the contract is with the band and apportioning blame might be difficult?
Individual insurance is not adequate for venues that are asking for the band that is performing.
As an individual on the insurance schedule you will be covered for any accident you cause but obviously if a band mate kicks something of the stage, then you are in no way responsible for the accident.
In my opinion, and indeed the opinion of any insurance brokers and companies i have ever dealt with regarding musical insurance (keep in mind i have been in musical insurance for 16 years) it is very cut and dry for apportioning blame. If you are named on the schedule and you cause any incident, its your insurance that is liable. If your band is named on the schedule and anyone in your band causes incident, its the band insurance that is liable. If only you are insured for liability and and a band member causes an incident, there is no cover.
What are your instrument rates, and what about PA equipment?
With regards to instrument rates, it varies per instrument - the best thing to do is provide us with a list of the instruments you wish to insure and we'll provide you a quote.
How would a band cope with the demand from a client or venue manager that the band carries PLI -
In your experience does individual cover work?
Again, if you are a regularly performing band and you have been asked to provide insurance of your own, then you will have to provide an insurance that has the band name stated on the policy, or each individual will have to be insured on their own. Individual cover (as above) for a band doesn't apply and should anything happen then the person causing the accident would be liable for any following disputes.
HTH
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Thanks for that advice, which I think I understand.
Do you mind if I put the question another way, then: Many musicians such as myself play in a variety of different bands, or solo, from time to time, in a variety of paid and unpaid settings. It seems that the advice on this forum is that PLI is pretty much essential, so I assume that applies to every situation. So how would you recommend that such a musician gets PLI that will cover him/her and those various bands at all times without paying an arm and a leg?
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No problem Chris,
The simple answer is you can't buy 1 insurance policy to cover you and what ever band you happen to be performing in.
To put it plainly its like asking your car insurance to sell you a policy to insure you and all your friends for any cars you might drive - its just not reasonable, and certainly not an insurable risk.
If you are performing a reasonable amount in various bands, i would suggest you have insurance for yourself - and would recommend your band mates do the same.
If you perform in one band a lot, then i would suggest that band has its own policy.
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To put it plainly its like asking your car insurance to sell you a policy to insure you and all your friends for any cars you might drive - its just not reasonable, and certainly not an insurable risk.
Well, not really - I'm suggesting the bands are all defined - the idea is just to have one policy covering all of them.
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^^Ahh i see
You could have them all named on one policy, yes. The rates would have to be arranged with the insurer though but you would probably end up paying around 80-100 per band.
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I was just thinking we might get economies of scale? After all, one person can't play in several bands at the same time, surely?
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You will get a better rate, but without inquiring with the insurers, its hard to say how much it would cost. If its something you would be interested in, please give myself or Andrew a call so we can look into it for you.
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I think I've reached the end of the line on this one. I've had discussions with Insurance Agents to see whether anyone would entertain the idea of one policy covering a group of named people, playing individually, or as named bands. It seems that the insurers would be unlikely to agree to that, except as an expensive bespoke policy, because that's not the way it works.
I still feel that many of the 1013 visitors to this thread, and the insurers, would have benefited from such an idea, but it looks like it's not to be. The best option at the moment for anyone who wants PL cover only seems to be to insure each named band they are involved with, or the individual, under separate policies.
Horses/water.