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Author Topic: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD  (Read 8591 times)

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John C

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THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« on: October 28, 2008, 12:07:50 AM »

 I've been trying to get beyond the beginner level and bought the John Kirkpatrick DVD.   I am a bit puzzled by the use of Thirds and Sixths.   Can anyone tell me how they use Thirds and Sixths to "fill out" the melody and if this is common practice.   I'm a bit isolated musically and would appreciate any pointers.   I'm using Bobby Shaftoe as a trial piece to develop the trills etc.   Does anyone else use the thirds exercise.

Thanks
John
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Dazbo

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 10:56:58 AM »

It's a while since I've seen the first two JK vidoes (as they used to be ;D) but I think he means the button below the button you're playing the tune with or the button below that (he's talking about the musical intervals).

So, if you're playing a high G on the G row (assuming your playing a DG) then play the button two below it (B) which is a sixth below musically speaking.  For example in G


   
G     octave below
A     7th below
B     6th below
C     5th below
D     4th below
E     3rd below
F#   2nd below
G    1
A     2nd above
B     3rd above
C     4th above
D     5th above
E     6th above
F#   7th above
G     octave above

Generally forget the musical terminology and look for extra notes below the tune that fill the sound out.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 10:58:53 AM by Dazbo »
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Darren

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 11:05:21 AM »

Below - not above?
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Pushpull

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 11:37:34 AM »

Below - not above?
It's either.
As Dazbo points out in his table, the 3rd above G is B and the 6th below G is B (an octave below).
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Falseknight

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 11:42:52 AM »

I know that thirds and sixths are enharmonic in this instance.  Conventional harmony always looks at the notes being built upwards though.  If you play a third below it does not give the same effect.
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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 12:17:17 PM »

Generally forget the musical terminology and look for extra notes below the tune that fill the sound out.
Well said, Darren!
(and this coming from me, a classically trained orchestral musician!) ;)
If it sounds OK, go for it.
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george garside

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2008, 12:19:57 PM »

Below - not above?

The melodeon is a traditional instrument and responds best when played in the traditional way without recourse to musical theory.  It doesn't matter one bit whether the player knows what a third or sixth or whatever is - what does matter is that he/she  recognises a good sound when he/she  hears one!  One of the advantages of the Dg etc boxes is that on the push any combination of notes will harmonise whilst on the pull most will. In addition there are many accross row combinations that work well.  

To maximise on the possible harmony it helps to be able to play the tune with any finger rather than having a particular finger allocated to a particular button.  This can be developed by playing tunes ( up to march speed) using only one finger, then repeating with next finger & so on untill you can play it with  any one finge including the little finger ( start with a tune you know well!).   You can then use any fingr to play the note belonging to the tune anad have three spares to add harmony & / or  extra rhythm  by potting 'non tune' notes above or below where the tune lies at any particular point.  These can either be played at the same length as the 'tune' note, accross a number of 'tune notes' as a sort of drone  or with a definate rhythm more or less as additional bass with automatic harmony.

All this is best worked out by experimental poking & prodding  with no need to worry about what somebody has christened the particular combination of notes - just remember the good ones so you can use them again.

george
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Pushpull

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 12:28:06 PM »

I know that thirds and sixths are enharmonic in this instance.  Conventional harmony always looks at the notes being built upwards though.
No it doesn't. The 3rd at the bottom is the 1st inversion of the chord and that is a conventional harmony. Of course, as George points out, all this theorising isn't terribly important as the melodeon presents harmonic possibilities remarkably easily. The OP did though ask about 3rds and 6ths specifically. I would say try 3rd above and 3rd below and see what you like.
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Hello

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 12:40:17 PM »

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Simon

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 12:54:52 PM »

Conventional harmony always looks at the notes being built upwards though.
There's also descending intervals, though most theory books consider them ascending. People usually recognize the highest note as the melody note, so in general it's better to put harmony notes below the melody. That's also the trick of chord-melody playing on guitar, where you choose an inversion such that the melody note is the highest of the chord. On melodeon, when the melody gets too low to put anything underneath you could play higher harmony notes, preferably at least an octave higher so it doesn't interfere with the melody. That's more or less what Tony Hall usually does.

Instead of playing thirds or sixths it also helps to know the righthand chords. You can keep your index finger safely on any of the notes of the righthand chord you're playing on the bass side. Playing in D you can even keep your index finger glued to the 3rd button; works with D, G and A chords.

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Falseknight

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 01:07:12 PM »

Sorry, even in the context, I thought we were talking about intervals relative to root.  A first inversion chord is best described in this case as 3:5:8 if we are being pedantic - and this only applies, strictly, to triads.

To add further to this, an interval of a major third is enhamonic with a minor sixth - and vice versa.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:10:01 PM by Falseknight »
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george garside

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 01:24:57 PM »

Sorry, even in the context, I thought we were talking about intervals relative to root.  A first inversion chord is best described in this case as 3:5:8 if we are being pedantic - and this only applies, strictly, to triads.

To add further to this, an interval of a major third is enhamonic with a minor sixth - and vice versa.

Oh well! if theorising flots yer boat , so be it!

george ;)
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Falseknight

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 02:36:34 PM »

So if we are not going to theorise it too much (an approach I don't disagree with by the way) why are we talking in the first place about "thirds and sixths" to fill out the melody?

If it's going to be used, lets at least try and be precise about what we mean because when all said and done, a third (major or minor) above a note is not the same as a third below - and as soon as you move away from conventional harmony it bites you.
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Pushpull

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 02:51:08 PM »

So if we are not going to theorise it too much (an approach I don't disagree with by the way) why are we talking in the first place about "thirds and sixths" to fill out the melody?

If it's going to be used, lets at least try and be precise about what we mean because when all said and done, a third (major or minor) above a note is not the same as a third below - and as soon as you move away from conventional harmony it bites you.
If we're going to get really pedantic (and why not  :D) we're not talking about A third above or A third below the root (which would be THE 6th below as you said), we're talking about THE 3rd above or THE 3rd below (which is B in both cases). Both are "conventional harmony" - the latter is an inversion that's all.
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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 03:07:54 PM »

The theory stuff is very interesting but doesn't push any of me buttons ;)

Thanks for the numbnuts guide, that, I can readily understand 8)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 04:06:10 PM by oldsoke »
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george garside

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 03:12:02 PM »

[ harmony" - the latter is an inversion that's all.
[/quote]

presumably classical speak for playing it arse upwards!!!
george ;D
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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 03:53:04 PM »

And there was I thinking that guitarists had a cavalier attitude to harmony ;)
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risto

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »

...Conventional harmony always looks at the notes being built upwards though.  If you play a third below it does not give the same effect.

Pardon me, but I have nothing else to do at this very moment so I put my spoon in the porridge too and and say I have to agree with this (and inversions are somewhat another thing).

Besides, talking about the sixth the way done here is really confusing as the 6th of the G scale is a E !!!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 10:52:49 AM by risto »
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Simon

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2008, 09:05:54 AM »

Sorry, even in the context, I thought we were talking about intervals relative to root.  A first inversion chord is best described in this case as 3:5:8 if we are being pedantic - and this only applies, strictly, to triads.

To add further to this, an interval of a major third is enhamonic with a minor sixth - and vice versa.
I haven't seen the dvd, but usually one plays 3rds or 6ths below the melody note. So not an interval relative to the root, but relative to the note played. Whether it's a major or minor interval depends on the note; you just pick the one from the current scale (or if you play blues from the scale of the current chord). So it's still 3rds and 6ths, but descending. In this case for G the B would be the 6th and the E the 3rd since they are descending intervals. Oh well, for melodeon just press the button one or two below and forget about intervals.
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risto

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Re: THIRDS and SIXTHS - John Kirkpatrick DVD
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2008, 10:25:36 AM »

Quote
So it's still 3rds and 6ths, but descending. In this case for G the B would be the 6th and the E the 3rd since they are descending intervals. Oh well, for melodeon just press the button one or two below and forget about intervals.

Yeah, start talking that way to someone who just starts to learn chords and chord theory basics and you will get him totally confused. When going downwards a scale it is normally counted: Root, 7th, 6th, 5th etc.. this is because these are the names/numbers for the scale note degrees and one of the basic ground rules in chord theory. Why not just keep it simple!  >:(

PS. Instead of saying the 6th below the root why not say the 3rd octave below...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 10:28:56 AM by risto »
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