Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: do re mi ???  (Read 6725 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8250
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 10:29:40 AM »

Staff notation is a clumsy way of rendering tunes in comparison, because if you change keys you have to transpose. Of course we need staff notation for unusual accidentals and modes, but many of the refinements of staff notation are superfluous for melodeon, and for most normal folk tunes sol-fa will do it very neatly.

Not at all!

C mixolydian:  do re me fa sol la sib do  8)

Dorian minor of C: re me fa sol la si do re  :D
Aolian minor of C: la si do re me fa sol la   ;D

G scale in "unfixed" :  sol la si do re me fa sol  :P
G scale in "fixed" :  sol la si do re me fa# sol (OK, that's weird, and' French')!  :|glug

Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Lyra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 554
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 10:52:57 AM »

I played in a band in Belgium where I learned the truth about "music the universal language".
French and Belgians (Francophone and Flems) use sol fa fixed to C (but of course sharp and flat vary by language)
Dutch speak same language as Flems but use ABC
Americans use ABC but call the types of note different, and have measures not bars
I never did work out what the Norwegians used

Belgian children do two years of solfège before being let near an instrument...
(I explained we did tonic sol fa at school and people went white.)

Net  result, I can do either and not bothered either way after 10 mins to get my brain in gear. I did give up the bassoon because the tenor clef fried my brain, but it was all that was left in the cupboard at school.

That being said, I'm clueless with abc notation and rely utterly on my skink to tell me what on earth it means :P
Logged

Idelone

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Now that's what I call a-peeling.
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 12:52:23 PM »


Staff notation is a clumsy way of rendering tunes in comparison, because if you change keys you have to transpose.

I'm not sure if I understand the transposing comment, any key change in staff notation is brought about by either amending the key signature at the start of the bar or imposed by altered accidentals. The reader just plays the indicated notes to bring about the change.


G scale in "unfixed" :  sol la si do re me fa sol 
G scale in "fixed" :  sol la si do re me fa# sol (OK, that's weird, and' French')!

I think the "fixed" solfage has a lot to commend it as it lets you know exactly what you are singing/playing. The example is showing the G Major scale in "unfixed" and "fixed", but the "unfixed" could easily be G Mixolydian leading to some confusion.

Clearly solfage and ABC are just languages used to interprete music, and with a little effort both can be learnt and used effectively. It is always good to keep the "little grey cells" active, n'est ce pas ?
Logged

Steve C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Pokerwork, Erica, Streb, Morse Anglo
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 01:32:03 PM »

Thanks for the reality check, especially Chris, nothing worse than hijack/drifting your own thread!

And to some of the others responding, you are right, it probably is me, I have had a tendency to over-generalize on the subject.

But on the do-re-mi, I am going back into M-P with the new attitude:  this may actually be helpful....

Thanks, all,,,,,
Logged
Located in Central North Carolina, USA; credit for picture: livingplanet.ca

Québécois

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1186
  • Accordez-vous donc, c'est si beau, l'accordéon!
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 05:02:49 PM »

 
G scale in "fixed" :  sol la si do re me fa# sol (OK, that's weird, and' French')!  :|glug

What's weird about Fa# (fa dièse) compared to F# (F sharp) ??? ?

Also it's written "Mi" not "me"  ;)


Logged
Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C,
Hohner Erica A/D, Roland FR-18

GPS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3170
  • MAD as a wet Hohner........
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 05:19:43 PM »

It occurs to me that no-one has mentioned that in the "universal" system of noe-naming by letter, in Germany at least B natural is "H" and B flat is "B" (unless they've changed now........)  ;)

Graham
Logged
Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B♭/E♭ Koch. Newly acquired G/C Hohner Viktoria. Also Fender Jazz bass, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Epiphone Sheraton, Charvel-Jackson 00-style acoustic guitar and other stuff..........

Squeezing in the Cyprus sunshine

Steve C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Pokerwork, Erica, Streb, Morse Anglo
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 06:32:28 PM »

Graham--is the "universal" system the same as what folks refer to as the "international" system?
Logged
Located in Central North Carolina, USA; credit for picture: livingplanet.ca

GPS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3170
  • MAD as a wet Hohner........
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 07:09:12 PM »

I imagine so - I don't actually know whether it's got an official name. I'm referring to the A-G alphabetical system we all know and love....... ;D
Logged
Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B♭/E♭ Koch. Newly acquired G/C Hohner Viktoria. Also Fender Jazz bass, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Epiphone Sheraton, Charvel-Jackson 00-style acoustic guitar and other stuff..........

Squeezing in the Cyprus sunshine

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8250
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 08:15:59 PM »

Also it's written "Mi" not "me"  ;)

It's not been a good week ..
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Marje

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2012, 01:46:44 PM »


Staff notation is a clumsy way of rendering tunes in comparison, because if you change keys you have to transpose.

I'm not sure if I understand the transposing comment, any key change in staff notation is brought about by either amending the key signature at the start of the bar or imposed by altered accidentals. The reader just plays the indicated notes to bring about the change.


G scale in "unfixed" :  sol la si do re me fa sol 
G scale in "fixed" :  sol la si do re me fa# sol (OK, that's weird, and' French')!

I think the "fixed" solfage has a lot to commend it as it lets you know exactly what you are singing/playing. The example is showing the G Major scale in "unfixed" and "fixed", but the "unfixed" could easily be G Mixolydian leading to some confusion.

Clearly solfage and ABC are just languages used to interprete music, and with a little effort both can be learnt and used effectively. It is always good to keep the "little grey cells" active, n'est ce pas ?

What I meant about transposing, Idelone (sorry about the delay in replying, I somehow lost track of this thread) was that if you have a tune written in G on the staff, and you want to change it to the same tune but in D, you have to produce another version with all the notes on different places on the stave. Just changing the key signature won't move the notes for you. But in sol-fa, a tune that begins on doh will always begin on doh, regardless of the key you're working in. So Speed the Plough always starts "Doh re mi fa so la so me ..." etc, in any key.

And I agree with Chris's comment above, that it's probably a good idea to be familiar with several different methods of notating or remembering tunes, as each one will have its own advantages, and it must be good for our musical brains to use different methods from time to time.
Logged
Marje

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3274
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2012, 02:08:21 PM »

I blame Julie Andrews and those bl**dy deer.......  >:(
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8193
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2012, 02:23:06 PM »

Pikey - there was only one deer albeit a female one.

Strigulino

  • The Night Owl
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 933
  • @strigulino on Twitter
    • Strig on YouTube
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2012, 02:46:52 PM »

I know of sol fa, and similarly to GPS went to grammar school, learned stave notation and then decided it was too complicated and now just play by ear. 

As a vaguely related side note, when I was a kid I always thought that the line in the Sound of Music's "Do, a Deer" was "Tea, a drink with German bread".  It's jam and bread, apparently.  I thought German bread was more logical.
Logged
~~~~~~~~~~~
The Strig

"World-famous poker player. Give her a good poker and she'll play any tune you like." - The Goon Show
Pets:  Two cats, one husband, a D/G Hohner Morgane, a C/F Liliput, a dark and mysterious anglo concertina, a Streb, a Giordy...

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5218
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2012, 03:06:31 PM »

I played in the pit orchestra for a performance of "The Sound of Music" in Chelmsford in 1971.

More on topic, I hope it's understood by all concerned that the tonic sol-fa note names are used by different people in quite different and incompatible ways:

(1) Marje is talking about doh being the keynote of the major scale, whatever key it's in. Written this way, you sing /play in whatever key you prefer, and the written notation doesn't change if it uses that kind of Tonic sol-fa. A lot of songs used to be written this way. In other words the notation is RELATIVE.

(2) In several European countries, Doh-re-mi etc. are simply alternative names for the notes where C = doh, D = re etc. In other words the notation is ABSOLUTE in that system.

Potentially confusing enough, before you even start making the ice more slippery with modes...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh bands: www.fourhandband.co.uk www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2678
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2012, 03:27:30 PM »

What I meant about transposing was that if you have a tune written in G on the staff, and you want to change it to the same tune but in D, you have to produce another version with all the notes on different places on the stave. Just changing the key signature won't move the notes for you.

True, if you are working with pen and paper, but not true if you use a computer programme such as Personal Composer or Sibelius, where a single key stroke will change not only the key signature but also the positions of all the notes.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, Acadian one-row in D; Junior Martin one-row in C.

Marje

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »

What I meant about transposing was that if you have a tune written in G on the staff, and you want to change it to the same tune but in D, you have to produce another version with all the notes on different places on the stave. Just changing the key signature won't move the notes for you.

True, if you are working with pen and paper, but not true if you use a computer programme such as Personal Composer or Sibelius, where a single key stroke will change not only the key signature but also the positions of all the notes.

Oh yes, computers have made all this much easier. I have Noteworthy Composer and can use this to produce a transcribed version of a tune. But this only works if the tune is in the computer program in the first place, and is thus of limited use. If someone's playing from a printed book of tunes, they may find transcribing quite tricky.
Logged
Marje

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3274
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2012, 05:28:10 PM »

Pikey - there was only one deer albeit a female one.

LOL!   ;D

Fa - a long way from Julie Andrews.........
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

Québécois

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1186
  • Accordez-vous donc, c'est si beau, l'accordéon!
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2012, 06:34:38 PM »

Potentially confusing enough, before you even start making the ice more slippery with modes...

Where is the confusion in "Ré dorien" or "Si bémol mineur"? Knowing more than one language should be enriching, not confusing  ;)
Logged
Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C,
Hohner Erica A/D, Roland FR-18

Lyra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 554
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2012, 12:30:13 AM »

The English will always win by playing slowly AND VERY LOUDLY  >:E
Logged

GPS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3170
  • MAD as a wet Hohner........
Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2012, 06:16:17 AM »

The English will always win by playing slowly AND VERY LOUDLY  >:E
;D ;D
Logged
Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B♭/E♭ Koch. Newly acquired G/C Hohner Viktoria. Also Fender Jazz bass, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Epiphone Sheraton, Charvel-Jackson 00-style acoustic guitar and other stuff..........

Squeezing in the Cyprus sunshine
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal