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Author Topic: do re mi ???  (Read 8350 times)

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Steve C.

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do re mi ???
« on: August 21, 2012, 04:57:30 PM »

There must be a thread on this but cannot find it.

Why does the whole rest of the world use A, B, C, D, E, F, F#, etc. etc. while the French use the do, re, mi, fa#, etc?

In my foggy memory, I recall learning do re mi when learning to sing, learning minor/major, octaves, thirds, etc. when a young sprout, but since and in the last 50+ years (danger: old fart alert, also ugly American alert) I have never come up against the relentless do re mi until becoming interested in melodeon and "continental" music, and in particular, it is driving me a little nuts as I work through the M-P books.

If someone could point me to the thread, I would appreciate it, there must be a reason for this.

Never have seen any use of do re mi in US folk music (why?)
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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 05:10:19 PM »

Is this any help?
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Graham

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 05:12:16 PM »

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Chris Ryall

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 05:47:21 PM »

M-P always use fixed solfège notation (do=Cconcert) in their masterclasses and impro courses - I have to say that all French, and  French speaking Belgians/Swiss etc are totally au fait with it. Sometimes a melodic line gets sung - they all sing out the notes eg "ré-fa-la" entirely naturally.  I think they all learn it either on mother's knee or at primary schools - but it's ubiquitous.

Chords are nearly all notated as eg  Dm7 - though they'll say that as ré mineur sept  My advice is to go with the flow and try and internalise the alternative names. si/mi and fa/la caused me most confusion! Improvisatiestage in Gent was fun - half the Belgians liked solfège, and the others wanted same as us ... :|glug
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Steve C.

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 06:43:50 PM »

Thanks, all, I do not ever recall hearing about "solfege".
Interesting. And, yes, I am going with the flow on this.

I guess the subtext is "the French".  (modest rant follows)

When you are in Japan and try a little Japanese, they think "this is weird, this person appears to be speaking Japanese, but of course they couldn't be, since only Japanese people can speak Japanese"; but they do answer you, in English.

In China, when you try a little Cantonese or Mandarin, they think "this person is making funny noises, it sounds like a talking parrot, but OK, lets see if I can figure this out".  If they are under 25, they will complement your attempt, but in English.

In most of northern and eastern Europe (plus Germany) when you try your limited travel/business phrases (or high school/university language study--complete with crappy accent) people are like "hey, this is great, they are really trying" and will either answer in the most simple, talking to a child way or switch to English and complement your attempt. 

Probably can add the Italians (usually) and most of the rest of the world to this group.

But, ah the French.  Unless you have the most impeccable accent (god forbid you have a Quebequois accent) they think "imbecile" and among the following:

1.  Ignore you
2.  If not possible to ignore you, reply in what they think is impeccable English
3.  Reply in what they think is impeccable English plus insult you in some minor way

I do not know why this is.  When I used to ask French speaking colleagues (in France or Switzerland) they would deny this happens.  Maybe it was just me.  Maybe Chris has insight on this. (I am assuming he is British but with a pisser of a good accent)

(end of rant)

I must say though that French melodeon music is something quite good. Also a good reason to have a GC.
As is Stella (almost French).  :|glug



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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 07:10:05 PM »

... Maybe it was just me. ...

If you're one of those knotted handkerchief wearing 'Brits' that thinks that upping the volume aids translation and that everyone should be able to understand and speak English regardless then ....you may well be correct :P

My experience is that, having tried my very limited French, they, as do most of Europe, respond in excellent English (and regrettably, sometimes in American)...   that is once they've overcome the shock of an Englishman actually trying to communicate in another language  ;D.

1066?   OK so fa; la, la, la
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Graham

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 07:27:58 PM »


Never have seen any use of do re mi in US folk music (why?)


It is used extensively in the seven note shape song tradition of many American Baptist and similar churches.  There is also a four note shape version based round starting at Fa.

In the Scared Harp traditions Do is the keynote of the songs key and so is not fixed as in the French system.

Highly confusing when you first come across.

Steve
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Steve C.

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 07:33:47 PM »

Graham, it's exactly the opposite, I have tried my whole life (so far) to not be the "ugly" American that makes it so inexplicable. 

I know what you mean, and it  makes one cringe when English speakers act this way.  It's particularly (almost) hilarious when you see it in some rural, totally out of they way place where there isn't any likelihood of an English speaking person within 100 miles.

Colleagues say I have passable, understandable, but terribly accented French and German.

Forgot to say in original rant, that when I was visiting Israel fairly often, that they too (like the French) come back to you in (usually quite perfect) English and insult you in some minor way.

Ha.
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Steve C.

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 07:36:32 PM »

You are right, completely forgot about shape note singing.
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Stiamh

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 07:45:41 PM »

Attempting to learn enough of a foreign language to communicate with people in their own tongue is a tough assignment. You seem happy to do that, and yet learning the names of seven notes, which to my mind is a very simple matter in comparison, seems to bug you.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall while you attempt to communicate with the French in French. It may depend very much on the situation. If for example you try to resolve a problem with airline or car rental personnel, or Lord help you the immigration bureaucracy, then yes the unhelpfulness and even downright rudeness you often encounter will be staggering. But if things are not different with ordinary people in social situations, then yes it may just be you.  :D

Bob Ellis

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 08:11:44 PM »

When visiting various parts of France and of French-speaking Switzerland on frequent occasions over the last thirty years, I have always tried to converse with local people in French, although I am far from fluent in the language. In all that time, I have never encountered the negative or disparaging reactions that Steve cites. There is often hilarity when I make some of my frequent mistakes, but it is always good-humoured and I have always found French people tolerant of my linguistic short-comings.

While generalisations are dangerous, my impression is that French people respond with greater warmth to visitors who try to speak their langauge than to those who expect the French to speak English. On my most recent trip, the warmth included being invited into the homes of perfect strangers for drinks or a meal and, in one instance, a memorable tour of a farmer's 12th century cellar in which he makes delectable pinot (of which he gave me a free bottle!)

Most of the French musicians I know do understand our A, B, C, D, E, F, G notation, but have to stop and think to translate it into solfège, whereas I experience the same hesitancy when translating notation the other way.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »

But, ah the French.  Unless you have the most impeccable accent (god forbid you have a Quebequois accent) they think "imbecile" and among the following:

1.  Ignore you
2.  If not possible to ignore you, reply in what they think is impeccable English
3.  Reply in what they think is impeccable English plus insult you in some minor way
Actually, my experience is quite the reverse; my French is not bad (OK, French was my second subject during my career as an English teacher, so it's actually probably fairly good), and I have always found the French - once they realise you can actually understand and speak their language - perfectly happy to converse with you in French.  The same goes for Germans, on the whole - my German is not as fluent as it was, but I've been interviewed about English folk music on German radio so it can't be that bad.  I spent a while in Prague learning about puppet-making, and picked up a bit of Czech (not the world's easiest language) and always found Czechs most appreciative of even halting attempts to converse in their native tongue. I can't claim ever to have become fluent, but I can hold a simple conversation and order stuff in bars (most importantly!). I now live in a mountain village in Cyprus, where my wife and I are two of only 5 non-Cypriots in a village of about 300 inhabitants, most of whom speak no English whatever, so there's not a lot of option but to get our heads round some Greek - and once again, our neighbours (and again, most importantly, the taverna owner) are most appreciative of our efforts and go to some lengths to help us become more fluent.

I must say though that French melodeon music is something quite good. Also a good reason to have a GC.
As is Stella (almost French).  :|glug

And almost beer!  >:E

Graham
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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 08:48:46 PM »

...delectable pinot ...[/color]

Care to pm the location Bob? ...I'm orf to France in September and might as well practise me French and absorb (slurp) a bit of culture whilst there ;D
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Graham

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Bob Ellis

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 09:09:48 PM »

PM sent as requested, Graham.
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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2012, 11:12:14 PM »

I had a similar problem with my bother-in-law, he would only converse in solfege, I tried to convince him that the "ABC" system was universal, but he wouldn't buy it.  In the end I just had to get down and learn it. I do have to think it through and I am a little slow, I don't find it as intuitive, but it does make music communication, with him, a lot easier.  I guess that eventually, with constant use, I will find it as easy as "ABC".  Julie Andrews never found it to be a problem.

Regards, Ian
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forrest

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 05:20:46 AM »

Having read the OP's initial post, I reached for my invaluable copy of Elson's Music Dictionary c.1905, and in the definition for the term Solfaing, it was stated thus:

"Singing the notes of the scale to the monosyllables applied to them by Guido. Guido was a Benedictine monk (b. Arezzo, about A.D.1000) and taught music in the monastery at Pomposa, about 1032. He found great difficulty in his work because of the vagueness of notation, particularly in the matter of pitch. He observed that each line of a certain hymn which the students sang daily to St. John began with a different syllable, and rose one degree in each phrase."

  "Here was Guido's opportunity. He caused these syllables to be used to represent the notes by the students, who had already learned to associate them together in their minds, and the greater part of the modern scale was formed. It may be mentioned that the French to-day use ut as the first note of the scale, although other nations have changed it to do.
  Guido's scale was hexachordal, and contained no leading tone. The seventh tone was added in the sixteenth or seventeenth century, and received the name of si. The change of ut to do is attributed to Buononcini, about 1700."

 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:25:25 AM by j.w.forrest »
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Graham Spencer

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 07:13:54 AM »

That's a very interesting and clear explanation - thanks.
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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2012, 09:00:10 AM »

1. Congratulations to Steve on hijacking his own thread so rapidly!

2. The wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge is good on this - several versions offered

   This system is called fixed do and is used in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Belgium, Romania,
   Latin American countries and in French-speaking Canada as well as countries  such as Bosnia
   and Herzegovina, Russia, Poland, Serbia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Iran,
   Lebanon, Turkey and Israel where non-Romance languages are spoken.


3. You won't get Norbert, or Steph, or Fréd Paris for that matter 'coming back to you in perfect English' (and nor would they ever insult you). Grenoble is a bare 60 miles from Italy (as the Alpine chough flies) and that's the language they'd learn at school, probably with options of German and Spanish. Within their clique J-P Sarzier (bass clarinet) has very good English, also Jérémie Mignote (flute), but he's from Brittany where the baccalaureate would include it.

Don't know why solfège is so dominant in France, but "I think" it's from 'école maternelle singing (Diatosoldo of this parish is likely to know?) We can note  that both fixed and "do=tonic") solfèges map 1:1 to our ABC,  and perhaps speculate why the latter is rooted in the Neapolitan Am scale?

So long as it's 'diatonic' (tone t ½ t t t ½ intervals) the start is frankly arbitrary.  Indeed, Miles Davis argued  that the white note piano scale .. should "logically" start with F(fa)  >:E

[edit] I've never heard "ut" as the "C" note. Wiki might assert this, but in folk/jazz circles at least it's bo11ocks!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 09:04:39 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Marje

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 09:02:14 AM »

I was taught sof-fa as well as staff notation at primary school. I learned it as the Americans  do, with do as the keynote. Sol-fa has always been my guilty secret, my own personal fix for tricky keys or notes. When I did a lot of singing from staff notation, I used to use it to help me find notes or intervals. When I try to memorise a tune, I use it to picture where the  first few notes are on the sol-fa scale, and then I can find the rest.

Recently I was at a singing workshop led by American choir, and although we learned the notes by ear, their leader used the sol-fa hand signs, which I loved seeing and was learning to follow as we progressed.

Best of all, I find sol-fa invaluable for melodeon playing, and think every melodeon learner would find it useful, but possibly only if they were taught it when young. As far as I'm concerned, melodeon is basically a sol-fa instrument, with the main arpeggio notes (do, mi, so, do) on the push and the re-fa-la arpeggio on the pull. Your "start" note on the third (or fouth) key is do. I can't always tell the actual note-name (e.g. G) of a given note while I'm playing but I will always know where it fits in the sol-fa scale. If I were to play the tune on a different row, or a different box, or a different instrument, I'm still playing the same notes in sol-fa.

Staff notation is a clumsy way of rendering tunes in comparison, because if you change keys you have to transpose. Of course we need staff notation for unusual accidentals and modes, but many of the refinements of staff notation are superfluous for melodeon, and for most normal folk tunes sol-fa will do it very neatly.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: do re mi ???
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 10:01:54 AM »

I was taught sol-fa at primary school as well, and as soon as I got to grammar school (that's a selective academically oriented secondary school for those in other countries, where I believe "grammar school" has several entirely different meanings) and learned staff notation I ditched it because I found it more of a hindrance than a help. These days I avoid it like the plague.  But that's just my opinion, and conventional staff notation suits me.  I fully understand that other notation systems may work better for some people. (I never got to grips with guitar tab, either......but I can recognise chords if they're written in conventional notation).

Graham
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Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B♭/E♭ Koch. Newly acquired G/C Hohner Viktoria. Also Fender Jazz bass, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Epiphone Sheraton, Charvel-Jackson 00-style acoustic guitar, Danelectro 12-string and other stuff..........

Squeezing in the Cyprus sunshine
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