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[Hugh Taylor]

Looking at this tune, which is sometimes shown as a variant of Nonesuch, I'm intrigued by -
1.In this key, it only seems to use the notes G A B C D. Does that make it pentatonic, or just a normal scale with E & F missing?
2.With E & F missing, what makes the key Gmix?

X:1
T:A la Mode de France
M:C|
L:1/8
N:”Longways for as many as will.”
B:John Walsh – Complete Country Dancing-Master, Volume the Fourth
B: (London, 1740, No. 173)
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:Gmix
d2|d2B2c2d2|B3AG2d2|d2B2c2d2|B6:|
|:B2|A2D2G2A2|B3AG2B2|A2D2G2A2|B6B2|
A2D2G2A2|B3AG2d2|d2B2c2d2|B6:|]

[Chris Ryall]

 Pentatonic major classically misses out 4th and 7th notes, so C = C,D,E,G,A,C. (There are others).

 An annotation says G mixolydian which would be a mode of that G,A,C,D,E,G.
  but that doesn't make much sense because you would usually want an F in there - its characteristic note?

  I'm not aware of any scales termed "pentatonic" that are simply touching notes of a diatonic scale.

[Stiamh]

In ABC, in practice, the K: field serves only to generate a key signature in staff output. The transcriber didn't want any sharps in the key sig and for all practical purposes he could just as well have written Cmaj. Clearly he wanted indicate that harmonically the tune is in some kind of mode of G.

Is the tune pentatonic? Couldn't say. AFAIK and without looking things up, the ABC specs don't allow for pentatonic or hexatonic key definitions - please correct me if I'm wrong. 

[CAB]

As Chris says, the usual pentatonic scale would be 12356, or GABDE - that is, five consecutive notes from the circle of fifths (GDABE) arranged in order.

I think a scale of five actually adjacent notes like GABCD would be pentachordal, though that's not a term I hear as often.
https://abigailidt.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/pentachord-scale-lesson.pdf

Stiamh makes an important point about the K: field in abc.  People on thesession.org often complain that someone has indicated a key as D major when the tune is obviously in B minor.  But they're missing the point - the K: field is intended to tell the program the key signature, not to tell the general reader the scale of the tune.  There are no Fs in this tune so there's no point in having an F sharp in the key sig.  Specifying G mix is a convenient way of saying it's in G without having the redundant sharp.

I hear nothing mixolydian in the tune and wouldn't harmonise it as such.

[GBbox]

I think a scale of five actually adjacent notes like GABCD would be pentachordal, though that's not a term I hear as often.

https://abigailidt.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/pentachord-scale-lesson.pdf

The first part of the tune is, as a matter of definition, a pentachordal melody. The second, technically,  is not, since the pitch range isn't restricted to a fifth, even if it uses just five notes.

More about the chordal melodies in this past treadh:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=26193.msg312386#msg312386

 

[Anahata]

I think the "Gmix" in the ABC is so
(a) it will produce no key signature, because none is needed
(b) It indicates the G is the home note
(c) ABC requires a K: field (mine does, anyway) so you can't leave it out

The only other plausible ABC K: field would be simply G. That would put an F♯ in the key signature, which would be superfluous though it would play correctly.

Looking at the Wikipedia definition of pentatonic scales, I don't think this is one. Considered as gapped versions of the major scale, those illustrated all have two gaps of a single note, not one big gap of two notes.

[GBbox]

The only other plausible ABC K: field would be simply G. That would put an F♯ in the key signature, which would be superfluous though it would play correctly.

Looking at the Wikipedia definition of pentatonic scales, I don't think this is one. Considered as gapped versions of the major scale, those illustrated all have two gaps of a single note, not one big gap of two notes.

The pentachordal tunes can always be written using two different key signatures on a five line staff. Yes, for the second part the melody isn't strictly speaking pentachordal, as the pitch range exceeds the fifth, but as far as the key to use in a transcription is concerned it works just the same. And yes, using five tones of a major scale the second part of the tune remains a pentatonic melody, even if in an odd pentatonic scale.

Given this, considering both C and G in theory would be correct key signatures as far as the melody is concerned, since I would play the tune with an alternation of the G and D chords, I would really use a G major key signature.

[Chris Ryall]

  I haven't looked at it in detail as I don't "do" ABC. but if there is any implication of G mixolydian I would seek to alternate G and F chords on a G/C. because of those chords are very straightforward and they imply that scale. The human ear would fill-in any other factors.

[GBbox]

  I haven't looked at it in detail as I don't "do" ABC...

That's the problem, you've made a a guess without having looked at the detail, but to contribute to the thread you don't need to lament you're not able to “do” abc, making assumptions about a tune you haven't heard non seen in a transcription. The score can be seen in all its glory at the link below, thanks to the Traditional Tune Archive web site.

According to the TTA the abc supplied by Hugh is a fifth lower than the source in John Walsh's Complete Country Dancing-Master, but beyond the transposition the tune is identical, and definitely isn't in a mixolydian mode.   

https://tunearch.org/wiki/A_la_Mode_de_France

[Chris Ryall]

 Please stop dogging my tracks in this group, GBbox (whoever you might be) it”s becoming onerous.,

 The question posed, was whether 5 touching (diatonic);notes might be considered to be “pentatonic”. While that might be so in some abstract mathematical sense, it just isn’t the way that most people talk about music. There seems to be general consensus about that in this thread?

  ABC is a brilliant invention harking back to the old Usenet days but has its limitations compared to staves and dots. I’ve known Chris Walshaw for about 30 years. He told me that it originated in Ireland, but he took it a great deal further. Chris is a mathematician, and I think that shows through to some extent. It is great for folk tunes but … might have problems in notating  eg Mozart, but let’s not go there.   i’m mostly a “by ear“ person. I experimented with ABC some 20 years ago, but I find musical scores easier nowadays.

  I entered in this discussion because it is in a musical (tunes) section of our group. Melnet has a separate ABC forum and I deliberately keep out of there.  You seem to challenge most of my posts on some arcane feature or other and I anticipate that you’ll come back at me again this time. But my own contribution to our conversation ends here.  Have a nice day 🙂

[GBbox]

 Please stop dogging my tracks in this group...

Dogging your tracks? Don't joke, Chris! I simply said that - and not for the first time - your post was off topic.

Hugh made two questions, not just one, and they were related to the transcription of a tune you didn't bother to have a look at.

Telling it was an abc transcription is really a poor excuse. The abc was taken by the old Andrew Kuntz's Fiddler's Compahnion web site, that has now evolved in the Traditional Tune Archive web site, an invaluable source of informations. And both them offer the scores beyond the abc transciptions.

It woul have taken less than a minute to have a look at it, and then express any pertinent opinion. You didn't, and you can't blame me for that.

Regards

Gianni Cunich (aka GBbox)

[Mick]

It's true, GBBox, that you seem to find it necessary to add your own personal judgements of others questions, comments, or contributions as either a prelude or an addendum to your own sometimes informative posts.

From my experience on the site, you seem to be the only one who regularly feels the need to be so judgemental of others while opining on your own.

You may enjoy using such language and tone with others, the kind that perhaps is more common on sports or tech discussion boards.
Perhaps it makes you feel superior, but one would expect that by now, most adults wouldn't need to do so on the internet anymore.

I've got no dog in the fight, other than to advocate for a more convivial atmosphere here.

[Theo]

[[ADMIN]]

The discussion is now very much off topic.

Topic closed.