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Author Topic: Fettling a Liliput  (Read 21849 times)

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Adam-T

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2012, 09:39:48 AM »

Quite often Liliput reeds are zinc on the treble side, aluminium on the bass.

That would explain why Harmonicatunes' Bass reeds look "New"
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syale

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 04:24:24 AM »

As I wait for my spares and begin the process of building a tuning bench, I am reading about dedic tuning and trying to 'get it'.

This is what I understand so far; I tune, for an MM reed set, + x cents and - x cents around concert pitch so that the resultant sound is perceived at concert pitch with the degree of wetness = x. High values of x will be wetter tuned. So if I want a wet tuned set of 20 then x = 10 (half of the tuning required)

I also read that w.r.t. the beat frequency, if I use the same value of x across all of the reeds that the higher notes will have a faster beat frequency than the lower notes and to compensate for that I should use x ± some value (where x + some value is at the low end and x - some value is at the high end). If I do this and assume that the beat frequency is linear will my wetness be less at the higher end and more at the lower end or is the difference so little that it would not be perceived that way by the human ear. Is there a way I can calculate the cents difference over the range of notes to be tuned, which in my case is for my Liliput E♭/B♭

On a side not I have created, in the past, binaural beat white noise tracks to help me relax - very interesting!
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Lester

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2012, 07:56:37 AM »

As I wait for my spares and begin the process of building a tuning bench, I am reading about dedic tuning and trying to 'get it'.

This is what I understand so far; I tune, for an MM reed set, + x cents and - x cents around concert pitch so that the resultant sound is perceived at concert pitch with the degree of wetness = x. High values of x will be wetter tuned. So if I want a wet tuned set of 20 then x = 10 (half of the tuning required)

I also read that w.r.t. the beat frequency, if I use the same value of x across all of the reeds that the higher notes will have a faster beat frequency than the lower notes and to compensate for that I should use x ± some value (where x + some value is at the low end and x - some value is at the high end). If I do this and assume that the beat frequency is linear will my wetness be less at the higher end and more at the lower end or is the difference so little that it would not be perceived that way by the human ear. Is there a way I can calculate the cents difference over the range of notes to be tuned, which in my case is for my Liliput E♭/B♭

On a side not I have created, in the past, binaural beat white noise tracks to help me relax - very interesting!

I will try to extract a set of beatings from Dirks Tuner for you sometime today  (:)

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 08:55:25 AM »

Is there a way I can calculate the cents difference over the range of notes to be tuned, which in my case is for my Liliput E♭/B♭
You might find this post (and indeed the whole thread) of use.

The amount of tremolo you want to achieve is a matter of personal taste. One way to start is to find an instrument (or recording) which you like the sound of, and then by listening try to work out the tremolo rate for the lowest notes, the mid-pitch notes, and the highest notes. Having decided which rate of tremolo (in hertz) you like, you can then insert the relevant values into the formulae to give you the off-sets in cents needed to achieve that tremolo.

If you find it hard to count the tremolo beats (especially when it is anything other than moderately slow), try recording or analysing sustained notes using software such as Audacity so that you can see the waveform of the notes. You should be able to see the waveform pulsate according to the tremolo, and then all you have to do is count the number of pulses per unit time and calculate how many pulses per second.
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syale

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2012, 01:06:36 PM »

Is there a way I can calculate the cents difference over the range of notes to be tuned, which in my case is for my Liliput E♭/B♭
You might find this post (and indeed the whole thread) of use.

Thanks Steve, as a techie and pretty good with Excel this is great! As you quite rightly state though the final listening may need some small tweaking to get it in the sweet spot!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:31:42 PM by syale »
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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 01:01:13 PM »

Fetch the Lilly over in December, and I'll bring mine out for a spin too!    ;D
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IanD

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 10:20:41 PM »

As I wait for my spares and begin the process of building a tuning bench, I am reading about dedic tuning and trying to 'get it'.

This is what I understand so far; I tune, for an MM reed set, + x cents and - x cents around concert pitch so that the resultant sound is perceived at concert pitch with the degree of wetness = x. High values of x will be wetter tuned. So if I want a wet tuned set of 20 then x = 10 (half of the tuning required)

I also read that w.r.t. the beat frequency, if I use the same value of x across all of the reeds that the higher notes will have a faster beat frequency than the lower notes and to compensate for that I should use x ± some value (where x + some value is at the low end and x - some value is at the high end). If I do this and assume that the beat frequency is linear will my wetness be less at the higher end and more at the lower end or is the difference so little that it would not be perceived that way by the human ear. Is there a way I can calculate the cents difference over the range of notes to be tuned, which in my case is for my Liliput E♭/B♭

On a side not I have created, in the past, binaural beat white noise tracks to help me relax - very interesting!
I find a consistent beat rate (about 4Hz) all the way along the keyboard sounds best, this keeps the beat rate in chords the same. With individual notes giving a tuning accuracy in cents makes sense because this is roughly how the ear perceives pitch, but with reeds beating together you hear beats per second. Obviously to keep a constant beat rate the tuning offset in cents will vary with pitch.
Ian (Dedic  (:) )
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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2012, 03:15:21 PM »

My envelope arrived from Charlie Marshall today (:)

Adhesives
I intend to use PVA for my pallets to glue the felt/leather and reading previous articles just for clarity I put the glue on the pallets and glue them to the felt side?
I will use hot glue to glue the arms on the pallets.
Can I use spray glue for the muslin on the grille or should I use PVA that sets clear?
I will use contact adhesive on the reed valves after I check to see that it doesn't damage the plastic.

I do know what Copydex is, having used it a school! I am in Texas and Copydex is unavailable.
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Adam-T

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2012, 03:23:19 PM »

I`ve found The easiest way to do the pallets is to remove them but before make a note of which way up they came off (I put a dot at the top before removing them) as the slots on some Hohner pallets are angled slightly for arm angle ..  Peel the old stuff off and rub them on a piece of sandpaper which is on a flat surface to get the remainder off and keep them level , clean the slots out too .
  Then spread the PVA on the pallet and do them all at once on the strip of facing (felt side of course) , when stuck, cut the pallets off the strip with a stanley knife (don`t they call them "Xacto" knives over there ?) .. Hot glue gun is perfect for fixing them back though watch out for Whiskers ;-)
  I`ve never used Spray glue for the grille cloth, I use EvoStik
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syale

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2012, 03:58:47 PM »

I've found The easiest way to do the pallets is to remove them but before make a note of which way up they came off (I put a dot at the top before removing them) as the slots on some Hohner pallets are angled slightly for arm angle ..  Peel the old stuff off and rub them on a piece of sandpaper which is on a flat surface to get the remainder off and keep them level , clean the slots out too .

Pallets are sanded flat against a glass surface with 400 grit sandpaper and slots cleaned out. The slots are parallel to the pallet face and not angled. There is a small radius at the end of the pallet arm that would take care of alignment. I numbered them with a pencil before removal from the arms, even though they are identical, so I do know which way was up.
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Lester

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2012, 04:14:57 PM »

I've found The easiest way to do the pallets is to remove them but before make a note of which way up they came off (I put a dot at the top before removing them) as the slots on some Hohner pallets are angled slightly for arm angle ..  Peel the old stuff off and rub them on a piece of sandpaper which is on a flat surface to get the remainder off and keep them level , clean the slots out too .

Pallets are sanded flat against a glass surface with 400 grit sandpaper and slots cleaned out. The slots are parallel to the pallet face and not angled. There is a small radius at the end of the pallet arm that would take care of alignment. I numbered them with a pencil before removal from the arms, even though they are identical, so I do know which way was up.

Whilst I admire the glass surface/400 grit  I usually just clean them up on my belt sander. By the time you take the thickness of the felt/leather into account and the fact that you hot glue them into place in-situ under keyboard spring tension (after checking the seal) the flatness of the pallet does not need to be to exact. I also shuffle all the pallets as, as you said, they are mass produced identicalish items.

Martyn

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2012, 04:43:02 PM »

Personally I would never use hot glue on pallets or anything else melodeon related.

What you have is a vintage instrument, why not use traditional methods to restore it? You will find it much more rewarding. And with the linen circle method you will find the pallets will seat much better. Plus when some poor melodeon restorer in 50 years time wants to re-face the pallets he won't have the nasty hot glue to deal with.

End of rant  :-X
Martyn
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Lester

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2012, 04:47:28 PM »

Personally I would never use hot glue on pallets or anything else melodeon related.

What you have is a vintage instrument, why not use traditional methods to restore it? You will find it much more rewarding. And with the linen circle method you will find the pallets will seat much better. Plus when some poor melodeon restorer in 50 years time wants to re-face the pallets he won't have the nasty hot glue to deal with.

End of rant  :-X
Martyn

Understand where you are coming from and almost agree with you. But the worst jobs of this type I have had to do is on old boxes where the glue seems to have got damp and the rusted the end of the levers and become a real pain to remove and renovate. Hot glue on the other hand is much easier to remove and doesn't hold damp.

Mind you hot glue on reeds or as replacement bellows gasket are not a really good thing but I have met both  ;)

syale

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2012, 04:49:20 PM »

Personally I would never use hot glue on pallets or anything else melodeon related.

Theo's tip of glueing the pallets to the steel levers with a hot glue gun works a treat. The glue remains slightly flexible so the pallets always land flat.

I picked the got glue up from another thread (:). What would you use Martyn? I do have leather dots from Charlie Marshall.
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Theo

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2012, 04:54:10 PM »

I use hot glue for fixing pallets too.  Quick and convenient to apply, easily removed when the time comes, allows a small amount of flexing to let the pallet bed in, and it is what Hohner have used for some years now.
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Martyn

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2012, 04:54:24 PM »

Personally I would never use hot glue on pallets or anything else melodeon related.

What you have is a vintage instrument, why not use traditional methods to restore it? You will find it much more rewarding. And with the linen circle method you will find the pallets will seat much better. Plus when some poor melodeon restorer in 50 years time wants to re-face the pallets he won't have the nasty hot glue to deal with.

End of rant  :-X
Martyn

Understand where you are coming from and almost agree with you. But the worst jobs of this type I have had to do is on old boxes where the glue seems to have got damp and the rusted the end of the levers and become a real pain to remove and renovate. Hot glue on the other hand is much easier to remove and doesn't hold damp.

Mind you hot glue on reeds or as replacement bellows gasket are not a really good thing but I have met both  ;)

I've never had a problem like this and I must have done hundreds of pallet re-facings now. Once the keyboard has been removed, give the pallets a little twist and they are off.

Martyn
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Adam-T

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2012, 04:56:09 PM »

My take on the hot glue is that if its good enough for Theo then it`s good enough for me and as Lester says, its easy to remove, the stuff is hidden behind a grille anyway. The old method again as Lester said could have caused rusting of the pallet arms, it`s been on every hohner I`ve seen in varying degrees (older than 1990 anyway) . Open systems of course need a tidier job and nice coloured dots add to the look .

Stephen , I`d save those leather dots for when you do a 4 stop 1 row with the grille off or no grille :)

EDIT - was typing this before Theo and Martyn posted
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Martyn

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2012, 04:58:44 PM »

I use hot glue for fixing pallets too.  Quick and convenient to apply, easily removed when the time comes, allows a small amount of flexing to let the pallet bed in, and it is what Hohner have used for some years now.

When restoring a vintage instrument I prefer to use traditional methods. It is just as quick and allows time for adjustment, should you need it.
Hot glue was never used on Liliputs  ;)

Martyn
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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2012, 05:00:25 PM »

Nope, neither were plastic reedvalves or self adhesive foam bellows gasket- I`m sure you don`t use leather valves and candlwick  ;)....... Time moves on
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pikey

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Re: Fettling a Liliput
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2012, 05:04:27 PM »

Hot glue worked nicely on my Club II pallets. It also seems to have a tad of flexibility, so the pallets always seat nicely. The 'Whiskers' are easy to get off once they've set with a sharp knife and tweezers.

I used PVA to stick the grille cloth and bass-end cloth on, it worked fine.

(Hot glue rhymes with Club II, I feel a limerick coming on.....  >:E  )

It's shame you can't get Copydex over there, the fishy smell still haunts me!    ;D
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