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Author Topic: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys  (Read 8706 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 09:49:21 AM »

Any of you B/C'ers play Blues on your kit? My C#/D rows go like a rocket in Bb :o Blues and ain't bad in F  :D I suspect there are some pretty fluid 'passing note' pentatonic scales available on any half-toner.
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Gromit

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 10:31:50 AM »

Quote
Using only two or three fingers allows me to phrase and articulate the tune properly at such speeds

Fair enough each to their own - 112bpm isn't breakneck speed (if my metronome can be trusted) but I guess its getting to the speed where grace notes with the little finger could be left out, but I find that using the little finger helps me play certain phrases quicker and more fluently.

as an example

The Humours Of Glendart
When played at speed for the 2nd part |def d2B|ABA AFA|..... my fingering is - def  (3rd & 4th finger) which then leaves my 3rd on the d ready for the B|ABA

I've tried other fingerings but this works best - especially at speed.

How would do you do it?
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 10:56:43 AM »

@ceemonster

An articulate and well considered contribution to the current debate. Nice to see a response based on obvious experience and careful study rather than knee jerk reactions and misplaced invective.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 11:01:24 AM »

Any of you B/C'ers play Blues on your kit? My C#/D rows go like a rocket in Bb :o Blues and ain't bad in F  :D I suspect there are some pretty fluid 'passing note' pentatonic scales available on any half-toner.

There are some great opportunities for playing blues scales in all keys. It's not currently where my head is at, but I did enjoy playing San Fransisco Bay Blues in A on the D/D# last time I was in the Low Lights at Shields.  :|glug
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Stiamh

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 02:02:03 PM »

Nice to see a response based on obvious experience and careful study rather than knee jerk reactions and misplaced invective.

Kneejerk reactions? Invective? Where, where?

If you are saying that others who have expressed firm views on this particular point have not studied the various possibilities carefully, well you're... mistaken, I'm quite sure.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 02:04:14 PM by Steve Jones »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 02:08:06 PM »

Kneejerk reactions? Invective? Where, where?

A general comment relating to the forum as a whole. Not with any specific reference to this thread, other than to applaud posting to which I allude. :Ph
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FlatNote

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 08:05:50 PM »

it's long past time for bisonoric button box players to begin using the terms the concertina players use for different ways of playing in different keys on a bisonoric: viz, "on the row" for when you're playing in the home keys of that name row, which gives you the push-pull "back-and-forth" Joe Cooley sound that the turistas inaccurately call "the C#/D sound"; and "across the rows" for when you're playing in keys that use notes from both rows, thus giving you longer runs of notes in one direction and a more fluid phrasing, which the turistas inaccurately call "the B/C sound."

This equation of "on the row" with "push-pull" and "across the row" with more "fluid phrasing" in a single direction is not correct for semitone boxes without a good deal of qualification.  Suppose you want to play tunes in D-Major with a push-pull feel.  Well you could, of course, play them on "on the row" on a C#/D box.  That will give you the same push pull feel that you would get by playing in C-Major "on the row" on a B#/C box.  Everyone knows that.  On the other hand you can also play D-Major with a push-pull feel by playing "across the rows" on a C/C# box.  This is because the D Major scale on a C/C# box, which is played across the rows, has exactly the same push-pull pattern as the D-Dorian scale, which is played entirely "on the row" on both B/C and C/C# boxes.  There are systematic relationships here but, in short, playing an octave from a given note all "on the row" will give you a scale for that note in a particular musical mode.  By shifting semitones, i.e. borrowing notes from an adjacent row, you can retain the same push-pull pattern by shifting the musical mode.  If your rows are arranged in ascending chromatic order outside-in then you shift the mode in a Major direction by moving outside-in and in a Minor direction by moving inside-out.  Hence on a B/C/C# box, you can play D-Dorian push-pull entirely on the middle row and D-Minor with the same push-pull pattern by substituting from the outside row and D-Major with the same push-pull pattern by substituting from the inside row.  So whereas playing across the rows has an inherent relationship to fluidity on the fourth-apart boxes (D/G, C/F etc.), because those boxes provide a maximum duplication of notes across the rows, it is entirely a contingent matter in relation to the semitone apart structure which provides a minimum duplication of notes across the rows.  If you want "across the rows" playing to equal fluidity you have to pick your keys and semitones accordingly as with the B/C D-Major combination.

if you are in it for irish music, the great thing (or maddening thing, depending on how you see it, since "across the rows" fingering has a steeper learning curve) about B/C is, you are gonna learn to play "across the rows" whether you like it or not, because on B/C those are the "concert pitch" keys (with D as home key and G as the IV key, hence all those D and G tunes), and concert pitch is the default sesh paradigm in irish music, so you pretty much HAVE to learn to do it.

I think there is some confusion here.  I can't see that there is any connection between playing in concert pitch, which involves tuning notes to particular internationally agreed frequencies, and playing across the rows.  It is the box as a whole which is in concert pitch or not, and any box enables you to play on or across the rows depending on which keys take your fancy.  Similarly playing in concert-pitch is not something which is within the power of a player, in his sleep or not.  On the Melodeon, unlike certain other instruments, it all depends on how the box has been tuned and not on the player's technique.

i spent three years in Clancy Week box classes, and i assure you, nobody mentioned playing flat on the C row as a default approach, or even taught a tune in C for that matter. 

While the Box is not played in the key of C very much in Ireland now there is nothing particularly traditional in that.  C used to be played much more widely because of the nature of the boxes which used to be available.  I can't see myself that particular frequencies which dominate currently playing have any inherent connection to the nature of the music.  They are a malleable consensus arrived at to allow people to play together conveniently given the current range of available instruments.  Yesterday's Melodeon player of Miss McCloud's reel in C was playing in the same tradition as today's player in D.  You're not obviously switching tradition if you switch from playing it on the inside row of a C#/D to the inside row of a B/C#, but you might have to switch the company you're keeping!
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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 02:02:26 PM »

@Gromit

I can't get my head round that ABC stuff so can't quickly answer you in the terms of your question, however, I play Glendart, with three fingers, and find the B part very straightforward indeed.  It's the A part I find tricky

Interesting that you mention grace notes - I'm very sparing with them, so perhaps that's why I happily play as I do.  My style developed while playing at noisy dances in village halls and hotels where acoustics and crowd noise smother nuance.  Necessity demands a fairly straightforward delivery of the tune with emphasis on stict tempo and clear tone.  Most of the ornaments I use are created by moving stresses around rather than imitating fiddle rolls.

It works for me, but I'm sure there are better box players than me who can roll notes endlessly and crisply at a good speed.  I'll keep on practicing.
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sue higham

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 04:03:24 PM »

Hello Eric .... I play B/C too, and initially I felt like a lone voice in the wilderness!  I thought all players north of the border must be self taught, as there was absolutely no-one in my neck of the woods who even played - let alone gave tuition.  You wouldn't believe the number of well meaning folk who pointed me in the direction of piano accordion teachers - Sheesh!!  ???

I found the Hanrahan book was very little help, quite frankly.  The keyboard layouts were confusing, as if viewed from the front of the instrument - upside down and back to front.  What WAS a great help though was having a piano.  I play by ear and could pick out tunes on the piano and I gradually matched up the pitch and names of the notes on the piano to the buttons on the box.  As my interest lay in Scottish traditional music, where most tunes are in D, G and A, I learned to play across the rows from the start; finding all the sharps and flats - and that vital duplication of B and E!

Then I came across an Irish player, and from him I learned to play using just three fingers which, for me, was an improvement.  Despite having very small hands I did find that quite often my pinkie tripped me up, so now I keep it in reserve for the occasional big stretch!

Hope this helps - it can be a bit mind boggling at first but persevere ... and have fun!!  :||:
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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 10:06:10 PM »

Hi Gromit

I've looked at that ABC stuff and this is how I finger the sequence you describe: 

def  d2B | ABA AFA |
233 2 1 | 121 212 |

the d to e step in the first three notes of the first bar is achieved by crossing rows from inside to outside, on the draw.   The change from e to f is achieved by bellows change from draw to press on the outside row, requiring no finger movement.  My hand position doesn't change in the first bar.

As you can see I change hand position twice for the second bar - once a the beginning to get the A with finger 1 for ABA, secondly to get A with finger 2 for AFA

apologies for the delay

regards

B
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Gromit

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 12:32:25 AM »

Boxer

thanks for that - because of what goes before at the end of the A part I find it easier to play 334 rather than get the 2nd finger across from the A button to the d button to play 233 as you do

as in

|FDD D2A: |def d2B|ABA AFA|
 311  1  2   334 3 2  132 212

cheers




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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 12:43:05 AM »

I play the note A at the very end of the first part with finger 1 - hence the sequence def at the start of the second part starts with a finger 2
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Gromit

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2012, 08:01:13 AM »

Ok so before that what are you doing on the FDD D2 ?

whatever I do (and it should have been FDD D2A -312 1 or a roll) I end up with finger 1 on the D button which makes an awkward jump from there to the A button.



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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 11:44:16 AM »

I play the last two bars of the first part as follows:

DCB AFE | FDD D2A
212 212    212 1  1

so I do the jump that you find awkward.  I don't find it a problem myself, but -

the bits I find hard to play evenly are the first and second bars right at the beginning:

BAF AFD | FEF DFA
321 321    212 121

the combination of row change and bellows change seems to break the flow
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george garside

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 01:29:43 PM »

it is worth keepimg in mind that :

- The fingering on a semitone box is not necesarily the same for similar phrases or groups of notes in different tunes or even in different parts of the same tune!

- If the fingering  of a particular bit of a particular tune   is presenting difficulties there is quite often an easier way of doing it -  try working it out slowly, trying alternative ways of fingering and always keeping in mind the possibilities presented by the reversed notes ( eg E & B on a BC and many more on a BCC)

- It doesn't always - pay to be too rigid about how many fingers ''should'' or ''should not'' be used - keep an open mind and if its easier to use 4 in certain parts of certain tunes  do so - similarly where it works best use less than 4. 

-  remember there is definately no single correct way of playing a semitone box and that top class results can be achieved in more than one way  - whatever the dogmaticasists would have you believe!

george ( who prefers pragmatic to dogmatic!) ;)
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Gromit

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 01:37:20 PM »

Thanks - I'm finding this quite interesting seeing alternative fingering patterns

Quote
DCB AFE | FDD D2A
212 212    212 1  1

I couldn't get the hang of this (cross over ?) fingering you use there 212 etc.

I find this alot easier

DCB AFE | FDD D2A
232 132    312   1 2

I play the beginning similar to you

anyway as George said there's more than one way to do it

Cheers
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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 02:56:38 PM »

I think of the 212 or 121 pattern as walking

I move my right thumb up and down the keyboard edge a lot whilst playing tunes - this allows me to align the hand and fingers at different angles to the keyboard so that for most of the 212's etc I'm not actually crossing fingers over one another

I play a lot of Irish music for ceilis and at sessions, but seldom meet other box players to swap notes with - I'm self taught and I only know a couple of other B/C players who attend sessions within a 20 mile radius of my home - so it's been interesting to discuss things in such detail here

regards


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Gromit

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 04:59:29 PM »

yes sure it's good to discuss alternatives - interesting you angle your hand so that you're not crossing fingers - I tried it and my hand was below my fingers kind of following them up the buttons.  In some situations I tend do the opposite with my hand slightly above my fingers rather like a guitarist would position the hand.

cheers
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:02:25 PM by Gromit »
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boxer

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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 05:22:28 PM »

I use the "hand above" angle to move up the fingerboard:

(example)

key D

ABC D
123 1

the first group of ACE is played hand above if the run is to continue upscale from D
it makes the first finger jump from A to D easier to execute accurately and leaves fingers 2 and 3 available for the next notes

if the run goes no higher than D, then hand below works better:

ABC D
121 2(or 3)

D can be played with 2 or 3, and which is used depends on the shape of the next figure and how many fingers are needed to execute it
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Re: Playing B/C melodeon in other keys
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 06:52:40 PM »

I don't think it's helpful to categorize anyone's point of view on the subject of fingering as dogmatic. People who say avoid using the little finger are really only trying to pass on something that has proved helpful - in my case extremely helpful - to them.

People automatically think (as I did at first): what can possibly be wrong with using the little finger? And the proponents reply: try it - it has worked wonders for my playing.

For a number of years I systematically avoided using the little finger. I am now relaxed enough to say, yes there are places where using it is better than not using it. (Not very many at all, mind you  :D )

But had I not made those efforts to explore not using the little finger, I don't think I would have developed the confidence and mobility on the keyboard that I have now (such as it is).

Damien Connolly, who gave me an informal  lesson a few years ago, couldn't understand why on earth I would avoid the fourth finger. And I'd love to have his command of the instrument. But here's another conclusion I have come to:

To paraphrase Jean-Paul Sartre, le doigté des autres, c'est l'enfer. (Other people's fingerings are hell.) You really have to work out, on your own, by long and patient woodshedding, what works for you. Try hints given by others - they can be like giant lightbulbs flashing on. Or not.  And be prepared for your fingerings to change and evolve. I've discarded a few lightbulbs along the way.

Good luck and let's remember, all opinion is personal, and all strategies are shared to help others rather than establish who knows best or is right.  :|glug
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