Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Too many tunes ... too little time!  (Read 5348 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7905
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »

What is it with this stupid folkie complex about people who are able to read music?.

Try sitting in with dozens of other musicians you've never met to play a 25 minute piece you've never heard and play all the parts required of you on cue, in time and in synch with everyone else. Then try being as smug and disparaging of "the dots" as before...

I, for one, was not being smug about my inability to wead music, I would love to be able to do it. But, for the most part, we are not discussing 25 minute pieces with multiple parts but simple little 32 bar tunes so I am not sure your retort is valid.

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 10:54:06 PM »

Now that's another can of worms - looking at the audience if in a band, or at the dancers if playing for morris.
You *must* do it in both cases or else how do you know if you're playing for the dance?.....which is the whole object of playing!
That is an example of why you need to have internalised the music to do what we are talking about.
Q

I couldn't agree more! What a pity the dancers won't give you half a chance by letting you know in advance what they'll be doing on the next practice night so you can run through it a couple of times in advance, especially when it's something they only danced once in the last season and that was on the first of May!

It's a peculiar fact that professional British orchestral musicians are renowned the world over for their ability to play a piece of music to performance standard by sight reading a piece they only get to rehearse on the day of the performance. They aren't the best musicians in the world to listen to by any means because the great orchestras of the world rehearse a seasons repertoire endlessly and cannot be swayed from the agreed format and thus lack versatility. The conductor being taken ill at short notice throws everything into disarray for the well disciplined and rehearsed musician, not so for the Brits, they just play what's on the page with scant regard to the silly old sod at the front waving his arms around.  :D
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo D/G, Albrecht Custom Liliput D/G
Hohner B/E, B/C, C/F, Bb/Eb
Liliputs D/G G scale, C/F, Bb/Eb

Andy Simpson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 11:17:19 PM »

What is it with this stupid folkie complex about people who are able to read music?.

Try sitting in with dozens of other musicians you've never met to play a 25 minute piece you've never heard and play all the parts required of you on cue, in time and in synch with everyone else. Then try being as smug and disparaging of "the dots" as before...

I, for one, was not being smug about my inability to wead music, I would love to be able to do it. But, for the most part, we are not discussing 25 minute pieces with multiple parts but simple little 32 bar tunes so I am not sure your retort is valid.

Every time this topic comes up on here, or in most other folk circles, there are constant subtle and not-so-subtle implications that the "the dots" are inherently bad and people who don't play entirely by ear are creatively-challenged zombies lacking real musicality, enslaved to whatever is on the page, terrified of making even the slightest deviation and incapable of playing anything exciting. That's highly presumptuous at best and patronising cobblers otherwise...

I'd bet any sum of money that a competent sight reader could memorise a 32 bar folk tune and play it well if they wanted to do it and enjoyed it but I doubt the average by ear only session player or Morris man would even know where to begin in a simple small ensemble classical piece.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:19:18 PM by Andy Simpson »
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 11:19:33 PM »

Whilst I don't think 'complex' is rather a derogatory turn of phrase to use in respect of 'folk' musicians I am of the opinion that those of both musical disciplines (dots or memory) are sometimes a wee bit jelous of each others skills.  One lot thinking ''can somebody put a pice of paaper in front of  him and play all that stuff without having heard it'' anad the other lot thinking ''how can somebody just get out an instrument and play all that stuff without recoourse to a bit of paper''

Those capable of either method of playing music posess considerable skill  and most of us probably recognise that.  However unless we want to live in a po faced world a bit of friendly knocking and banter does not go amiss

I could follow that  by asking  ''what is the definition of an orchestra'' ( the answer being a bloody great musical instrument played by a conducter)  but I shall refrain from so doing  and blaim my computer for thought reading this paragraph!

george

Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7905
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 11:24:08 PM »

but I doubt the average by ear only session player or Morris man would even know where to begin in a simple small ensemble classical piece.

To quote some one That's highly presumptuous at best and patronising cobblers otherwise...

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 11:27:33 PM »

just on a point of order - is there any difference between a piece and a tune?

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 11:30:14 PM »

I'd bet any sum of money that a competent sight reader could memorise a 32 bar folk tune and play it well if they wanted to do it and enjoyed it but I doubt the average by ear session player or Morris man would even know where to begin in a simple small ensemble classical piece.

Sorry Andy but this is largely off topic. People who play classical pieces would probably tear you to shreds for considering the melodeon to be an instrument. Anyone with an ear for music in its purest sense would consider the tremolo tuning of our beloved boxes to be truly unacceptable! Don't commit the sin of being as disparaging or as narrow minded towards one group of musicians as they may be towards you without at least considering their point of view.

Dancers are a different matter of course, left footed oafs the lot of 'em!  ;)
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo D/G, Albrecht Custom Liliput D/G
Hohner B/E, B/C, C/F, Bb/Eb
Liliputs D/G G scale, C/F, Bb/Eb

Andy Simpson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2012, 11:30:44 PM »

but I doubt the average by ear only session player or Morris man would even know where to begin in a simple small ensemble classical piece.

To quote some one That's highly presumptuous at best and patronising cobblers otherwise...

...err, not really. It's an entirely reasonable assumption because the ability to sight-read is necessary to successfully participate in classical ensemble work. A bit like saying that an English-speaker who can't speak Russian wouldn't be able to verbally communicate their intentions to a Russian-speaker who can't speak English
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2012, 11:34:42 PM »

Eh!
g
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 11:40:23 PM »

just on a point of order - is there any difference between a piece and a tune?

george

If you need to ask the question you probably won't understand the answer. Speed the Plough is a tune (and a very good one!) Jupiter from the Planets Suite by Gustav Holst is a piece. If you'd like your pieces in a more traditional form try the Steel Skies Suite by Alistair Anderson.

The arguments between staff notation readers and ear only players will rage on forever. The truth for me lies somewhere in between, all musicians have merit and it's the adaptable ones that are the cream of the crop no matter which school they cleave from.
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo D/G, Albrecht Custom Liliput D/G
Hohner B/E, B/C, C/F, Bb/Eb
Liliputs D/G G scale, C/F, Bb/Eb

Ollie

  • Grumpy Young Git
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1900
    • Ollie King
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2012, 11:56:30 PM »

What is it with this stupid folkie complex about people who are able to read music?.

Try sitting in with dozens of other musicians you've never met to play a 25 minute piece you've never heard and play all the parts required of you on cue, in time and in synch with everyone else. Then try being as smug and disparaging of "the dots" as before...

I, for one, was not being smug about my inability to wead music, I would love to be able to do it. But, for the most part, we are not discussing 25 minute pieces with multiple parts but simple little 32 bar tunes so I am not sure your retort is valid.

Every time this topic comes up on here, or in most other folk circles, there are constant subtle and not-so-subtle implications that the "the dots" are inherently bad and people who don't play entirely by ear are creatively-challenged zombies lacking real musicality, enslaved to whatever is on the page, terrified of making even the slightest deviation and incapable of playing anything exciting. That's highly presumptuous at best and patronising cobblers otherwise...

I'm doing a bit of research on something related to notation in folk music at the moment. This quote rings true...

“The basic premise for research into microrhythmic phenomena is the belief that we do not play any rhythm exactly as it is, or could be, written in standard notation.” (Kvifte, Tellef, 2007, p.65).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:45:01 AM by Ollie »
Logged
Hohner Erika 12 bass D/G : Hohner Erika Bb/Eb : Hohner 1 row 4 stop D : Hohner Erica 9 bass D/G :

http://www.olliekingmusic.com/

Free-Reed Specialist, Hobgoblin Leeds

AirTime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2012, 05:37:39 AM »

I, for one, would never disparage the ability to read music. I am somewhat in awe of people who are able to read & play a piece on sight. On the other hand, my wife, who received traditional piano training, is able to sight-read music, but is in awe of (well, a little bit!) my ability to pick up a tune by ear. I've got to believe many skilled, classically trained musicians are able to do both equally well.

The musician I am in most on awe of is young Chris Thile. At the tender age of 31 (mind you, he has been playing the mandolin since the age of 5) he seems to have a endless array of tunes committed to memory. Bluegrass, folk, experimental, jazz, classical - he plays them all & I've never seen him so much as glance at a sheet of music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcuf8c675Uk

I'm guessing it would take me the rest of my life just to learn to play that one piece.   :'(



Logged
1920's BbEb Hohner; 1920's  AD Koch; 1910 (?) One-row Hohner in D,  1910's GCB Maga Ercole; ; AD 1950's Pistelli, CF Sandpiper, CF Preciosa, BbEb Preciosa.

911377brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 09:34:13 AM »

My main problem occurs when I more or less learn a tune [it will never be better than more or less as an almost newby of 75 ] on one box and then play it on another box, identical in all but key , and it all falls apart on me. Can't work that one out at all.....       Brian, West Devon
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11227
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 10:31:16 AM »

My main problem occurs when I more or less learn a tune [it will never be better than more or less as an almost newby of 75 ] on one box and then play it on another box, identical in all but key , and it all falls apart on me. Can't work that one out at all.....       Brian, West Devon

You need to learn the tune first by listening to it many times eg from a recording, so that you can sing/hum it or play it in your head.  Then you learn how to get your instrument to reproduce it.  And both those processes take time and patience and being nice to yourself, irrespective of age.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 11:21:18 AM »


I'm doing a bit of research on something related to notation in folk music at the moment. This quote rings true...

“The basic premise for research into microrhythmic phenomena is the belief that we do not play any rhythm exactly as it is, or could be, written in standard notation.” (Kvifte, Tellef, 2007, p.65).
[/quote]

It certainly rings true to me. But then when I use notation or dots or whatever you want to call it  I go for the simple one liners eg in the NOrthumbrian Pipers tune books,( which I highly recommend)  and treat the 'notation'  as a starting point rather than as something to be aimed at with great precision - probably because I couldn't follow notation with great precision even if  wanted to!

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Gary Chapin

  • L'Accordéonaire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1359
  • Melodeons are good for humans.
    • l'Accordéonaire blog
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 12:18:44 PM »

Quote
“The basic premise for research into microrhythmic phenomena is the belief that we do not play any rhythm exactly as it is, or could be, written in standard notation.” (Kvifte, Tellef, 2007, p.65).
This has been well documented in jazz studies where it's very obvious when you try to notate "swing." The dotted-eight/sixteenth relationship changes considerably as tempo increases in swing, with the notes becoming more even in length as tempo rises.

As for the larger debate, I am of both worlds and don't fit either stereo-type.  I use sheet music a lot -- and actually have a love of music theory -- but always fill my ears with the tune while learning.  The disparaging of either side -- one is primitive and the other is inauthentic -- is discouraging to me.  Really, what benefit do you derive by putting down the way someone else decides they want to relate to music?

Finally, I haven't taken any surveys or anything, but I've known many classical musicians (and jazz musicians!) who are completely fascinated by all music and would not dismiss melodeon as described here (and, let's face it, that Tremolo Americano can be a complete bear for anyone to tune to).
Logged
Read the l'Accordéonaire French music blog:
http://accordeonaire.com/

Bobtheboat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • 'On the cut' near Lichfield, UK
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 01:30:09 PM »

I have a foot in both worlds too Gary and wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on the schism. Bob
Logged
'Rowbotham Erika Extraordinaire' (12 bass + stop G/C/acc), Hohner Liliput Bb-Eb. Castagnari Rik G/C/acc

Lyn

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 02:45:23 PM »

I'd love to be able to read music properly - I can just about follow the simple tune in note form IF I ALREADY KNOW THE TUNE Otherwise I'm lost. I do SO admire anyone who can sight read at a glance. Totally silly to get sniffy about ears versus notes. Both are skills, though I have no idea where my ear-learning ability came from and I neither prctice it nor feel 'special' because of it.

I would say though that there is a basis for 'either side' feeling a spasm of irritation at the others' perceived intrangience!
I get frustrated when my 'dotty' pals can't join me in learning a new tune if they don't have the dots, or when they insist that it should be played 'as it is written'. And in turn I infuriate the pants off them by learning a tune the way I think I've heard it - oftenputting a completely different B part in, sometimes of my own making! I know I do , change a phrase around because I think I remember it that way. But we jostle along nicely together, and I owe them a huge debt for bringing to my ears a wealth of sumptuous music I might otherwise never had heard.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 07:59:48 PM by Lyn »
Logged
saltarelle nuage DG

Castagnari Mory DG

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3250
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Too many tunes ... too little time!
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 04:33:32 PM »

I'd bet any sum of money that a competent sight reader could memorise a 32 bar folk tune and play it well if they wanted to do it and enjoyed it but I doubt the average by ear only session player or Morris man would even know where to begin in a simple small ensemble classical piece.

Nice to know that I'm not average. I can sight read for 'cello, voice, classical guitar, melodeon. I was taught how to do it when I was 7. It's not that difficult to learn to do, it just needs practice (like most things).

I'd recommend everyone tries to learn how to read music (dots, not abc), as it opens up so many more musical options. eg last week I came across a Pipe majors tune book in Holyrood Palace shop, and was able to read and hum the tunes to myself before deciding not to buy it!

From the opposite side, I'd encorage every folk musician who plays from the printed note to try playing by ear. Most (if not all) can when they put their mind to it.  Moving away from having to read the notes all the time allows you to open up your playing style. Thats the real issue with always playing from the notes - it can stifle exploration.
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.