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[Pete of Ebor]

Following on from Dazbo's Thread "BC Fallacy", can anyone explain in words of one syllable (or less..! ) exactly why sharps and flats (.. for example A-sharp and B-flat..) are not the same. I do know that there is meant to be a difference, but that since the  invention of the tempered keyboard ie piano keyboard, the difference has become blurred to the extent that most people think that they are the same...and so they appear on a melodeon ( ..don't they?) so your mission, should you care to accept it, is to explain to me concisely why they aren't the same... How different would they actually sound ? Would I even be able to tell them apart ? Any takers ?

[Lester]

A starter for 10 on the theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

[Québécois]

A starter for 10 on the theory

Yup, anyone who has played violin and/or a brass instrument with a pianist will understand!

[Andy Next Tune]

A starter for 10 on the theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Thanks Lester, that Wiki's just blown a few fuses in my brain!!
The Wiki it references on 'just intonation' has some sound files which demonstrate the difference and a discussion on diatonic scales!

Off to get an ice pack.

Andy

BTW shouldn't it be a starter for 12?

[Falseknight]

For all that, melodeons (even single row) are tuned to an equally tempered scale.

[waltzman]

For all that, melodeons (even single row) are tuned to an equally tempered scale.

Not the ones for cajun music.

[Falseknight]

Really?  I'm impressed!

[Theo]

For all that, melodeons (even single row) are tuned to an equally tempered scale.

And not all the ones I tune. 

 

Following on from Dazbo's Thread "BC Fallacy", can anyone explain in words of one syllable (or less..! ) exactly why sharps and flats (.. for example A-sharp and B-flat..) are not the same. I do know that there is meant to be a difference, but that since the  invention of the tempered keyboard ie piano keyboard, the difference has become blurred to the extent that most people think that they are the same...

If playing in equal temperament they are exactly the same, so that applies to the vast majority of fixed pitch instruments eg pianos, electronic keyboards, squeezeboxes and fretted stringed instruments.   Why they are not the same on other instruments and tuning systems is not simple to explain but is well worth some study using the links that have already been supplied. 

[BruceHenderson]

 Following on from Dazbo's Thread "BC Fallacy", can anyone explain in words of one syllable (or less..! ) exactly why sharps and flats (.. for example A-sharp and B-flat..) are not the same. I do know that there is meant to be a difference, but that since the  invention of the tempered keyboard ie piano keyboard, the difference has become blurred to the extent that most people think that they are the same...and so they appear on a melodeon ( ..don't they?) so your mission, should you care to accept it, is to explain to me concisely why they aren't the same... How different would they actually sound ? Would I even be able to tell them apart ? Any takers ?

    Andy, to go back to your origin question, (IIHIR) A# and Bb are the same in the key of B.  The problem arises that the A# that's a perfect fit in the key of B isn't the same as the Bb that's the perfect fit in the key of, say, F.  So, can do a few things to be "perfect" -- you can tune a "fixed pitch" instrument so that the A# is perfect for B and only play in B (and maybe very close relative keys), or you can tune Bb for F and only play in F, or you can play a "sliding pitch" instrument and vary the needed note (like sliding your finger on a fiddle string) to get the "prefect" note or you can come up with a "compromise" system.  In that compromise system, what you're calling "A#" or "Bb" will probably not be the perfect A# or Bb but it will be a close enough compromise that it won't sound really bad in any key that you're playing in.  That compromise in modern music is equal temperament.

    So, at that point, you have to realize that what you're calling the "Bb" note in F isn't exactly the same "Bb" as in key of Eb (if you're trying to play the "prefect" note, that is) and it's probably even more different from the A# in the key of B way over on the other circle of fifths, but since we're so tied to the "compromise system" called equal temperament on a piano, everyone just calls the compromise note Bb or A# and ignores that it's not "perfect" for most keys.

   Just be glad that we're not playing a harpsichord 350 years ago.  Some of them had "split" black keys.  If you were trying to play an A#, you hit the half the key closer to the A white key -- if you wanted to play a "true" Bb, you hit the half of the black key closer to the B white key.  Or, you could do what I'd do and just play a diatonic instrument.

[BruceHenderson]

For all that, melodeons (even single row) are tuned to an equally tempered scale.

Not the ones for cajun music. 

   Yupp, and that's the biggest difference between tuning for Cajun and Quebec music.  In Louisiana, the one-row was brought in to accompany (and amplify) the fiddle, which has the capacity to play in "perfect" scales; since a one-row can't play in many keys anyway, the scale was modified to be "just temperament" (or something very muc like it).  It sounds great with a fiddle (since it's pretty close to the theoretical perfect harmony pitch for the selected key).  Sounds lousy (or at least it may sound lousy) with a piano.

   In Quebec, there were many more pianos around.  In the old days, fiddles and accordeons didn't play together a lot but both played a lot with pianos.  The fiddles did what most modern musicians do, they modified their "perfect" pitches to match the equal temperament of the piano.  Accordeons were also tuned to "piano" pitches.  Now, although you'll often see fiddles and accordeons in a band, they're almost certain to be following that piano convention of equal temperament; and Quebec bands also often include a piano while Louisiana bands rarely do.

   Almost all one-rows you'll run across in Quebec are tuned even-tempered; almost all in Louisiana aren't.

[Ebor_fiddler]

Peter!

Because they are! So you'll just have to lump it and buy me a pint tomorrow night as reward (well it's wotrh a try  ).

Chris.

[Falseknight]

OK guys, hands up!  I should have said  single rows are frequently tuned in equal temperament.

[Ebor_fiddler]

I checked this one with my perfect sisters, who are music teachers and often have to intruct the enemy in terms that they can understand. Here's what one has to say (though I have natural doubts about its accuracy, since I can understand it) -

"Sharps push upwards & flats draw the sounds down (therefore # is higher than b ). (It's to do with ratios & relationship between length of vibration - I won't bore you with science/maths)
Until you come to write music down it's not a problem as the ear hears the correct sound - e.g. F#  being very close to G, in key of G;     or listen to a dom. 7th chord and hear that one note leads up and another pulls down towards the home chord.
Until music started to be more complex & move from one key to another within a piece, keyboards were tune specifically for the music about to be performed, as 'tin whistles' & some other folk instruments still permanently are - but as soon as you try to 'modulate' (move to another key) the relationships are no longer correct in the new key.
Most of the time we can be lazy & just go for the happy medium."

As I say, I can understand this!

 

[Falseknight]

Actually, in the scheme of things, A flat is higher than G sharp.  The equally tempered note is in the middle.

You also have to realise there arre different sharps and flats depending on what the fundamentalof the harmonic series is.

Melodeons (and similar diatonics) are in a unique position in playing a tone row that, depending on the whim of the tuner can be either natural or equally tempered.

[TomB-R]

At least a discussion of temperament is worthwhile on a free reed board!  I do get tired of grandiose comments about temperament by fiddlers who surely just use it as an excuse for their faults of intonation!

Although some of his claims don't stand academic scrutiny there are some lovely recordings of music by Bach on the web played by Bradley Lehman using a temperament he claims is derived from a graphic by Bach.  Whatever the scholarship of it, they underline how lovely things can sound when not subjected to the tyrannical compromise of equal temperament.

Tom
(Mainly fiddle player!)