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Author Topic: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row  (Read 9372 times)

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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 08:27:46 PM »

Paul, the McNulty box also had screws instead of bellows pins. I should still have the screws here. Regarding the bass key slanted cut-out vs. flat panel key mount, I was thinking of the following boxes of the same vintage: Baldoni with the cut out - McNulty, Tom Treacy, Bill Sullivan, J. Cunningham, one owned by Steve Chambers vs. the Walters - Madden, Simon McArdle, J. McDonough, Paddy Ryan. Only your new Baldoni is different??

Hi Ted,

Yes, all the earliest B-B boxes I've been able to check (in hand, or from good photos) seem to have had screws. . . McNulty, Cunningham, Finnerty,  Likely -- and others I vaguely remember.  Sullivan? In fact the J. J. Dwyer box has screws but I'm not sure whether they were replacing original bellows pins since that box had had some repairs over the years.  The Likely box looks to have had minimal work done to it, and none since 1957. 

Re: the bass-side cutaway, as I mentioned the basic shell of the Likely box is identical in many details to the unlabeled yellow pearl box discussed in the thread linked in my first post, and that one lacks the cutaway of course.  Both these boxes have the unusual staggered-split-pallet action which I am suspecting was experimental and predated the action found in the Cunningham and McNulty boxes (and many others through the 1930s).

The way I interpret the photo of the Conlon Baldoni (1928 ? See link below) it looks to me as though that box had no bass-side cutout, and the artist's rendering of his box as used in the Baldoni ad did not have it either for whatever that's worth.

The decoration of the Likely box is a mixture of the Sullivan box (very similar decoration except the bass side, even has the same constellation of rhinestones near each of the flags), the Finnerty box (almost identical keyboard engraving bar the color of a couple of rhinestones), and the Cunningham box (in photo below -- compare the rounded edges of the keyboard -- I suspect that was a modification done inhouse at B-B since the unlabeled twin of the Likely box has more angular corners).  The flags of the Likely box are a little unusually exuberant, I think because the nice short name allowed more room for them.

I suspect these Baldoni-Bartolis with screw-center buttons and flags on the casework predate the ones like Steve Chambers' and the similar black ones that have flags engraved on the keyboard (see photos in Ted's article linked below).

A couple more features worth noting, relevant to dating this instrument:  1) the early type of shoulder-strap bracket (also seen on the unlabeled yellow box, on the Cunningham box, and on some 1920s B-B piano accordions, and different from the type I associate with the later 1930s B-B and Walters boxes).  2) the unusually fine green-white-gold-white-green decorative celluloid binding that picks up the Irish-flag colors of the engraving.  3) the shape and proportions of casework, keyboard, and grille, and the angle of the keyboard, which are all similar to the Cunningham box and different from the series with flags on the keyboard, shown in Ted's article linked below. 4) the hyphen in the Baldoni-Bartoli name -- this is a minimal dot or line in the early boxes, which I believe include the Likely, McNulty, Finnerty, Sullivan, Treacy, and Cunningham boxes, but a substantial colored square in the Radio-Tone, Chambers, J. J. Dwyer, etc. boxes with flags on the keyboard.  5) the stamped metal grille. 6) the bass grille of bare wood rather than celluloid-covered. 7) some font and spacing details of the "BALDONI - BARTOLI & CO. N.Y." engraving including the shape of the letter "B."  8 ) keyboard plate that covers the entire keyboard area (not a separate rectangle covering the button area), and without decorative celluloid binding around the keyboard edge -- these may be early features that also reappeared in some later instruments.

Doesn't someone we know have the catalogs? ;-)

PG

edited to add:

1)  For anyone who might feel "left out" of the conversation, I'm attaching below (by permission of the current owner) a photo of the beautiful 8 voice Cunningham box.  The original melody buttons would likely have been screw-center pearl.

2) You can see the photo of P. J. Conlon and his Baldoni-Bartoli here:

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/conlon.htm

3) And here's a link to Ted's article that includes a photo of the late Mr. Sullivan, whose music started this quest for me, and his Baldoni-Bartoli:

http://www.nyfolklore.org/pubs/voic36-3-4/accordion.html

« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 10:54:02 AM by pgroff »
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Owen Woods

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 09:22:13 PM »

Amazing looking box PG!
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Stiamh

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 10:20:21 PM »

And if anyone asks if you are looking to sell it, I assume the answer will be: not f... likely!

pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »

You said it Steve . . .

but someone would have :-)

The younger generation around here have been asking to borrow my William Sullivan cd over the last few months to play in their boombox (really I never have pushed music on them) so they're taking a special interest in this older, even boomier box.

PG
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YorkieKen

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 10:54:09 PM »

I really enjoyed those photos, fantastic piece of history, stylish looking boxes ! Yummy  ::)
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boxcall

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 03:06:26 AM »

 Paul ,
Great find!!
would this be the typical set up for these boxes 6 reed banks?
I agree with adam sound should be amazing.

ME LIKELY!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:08:48 AM by boxcall »
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 08:29:18 AM »

Paul ,

would this be the typical set up for these boxes 6 reed banks?
I agree with adam sound should be amazing.


Hi boxcall,

No two of these are exactly the same.  But I think the voicing LMMMMH is the most common in the 6-voice pre-war Baldoni-Bartoli Irish-American boxes that I've seen. The box I play the most is a 1-row Walters in LMMMMM; not only the voicing but the tuning and the whole design make it sound warmer and deeper than the Likely box.  I think all the Irish-American boxes evolved in the direction of a fuller, warmer sound and fewer reeds because that's what many people preferred.  Actually the 4 voice ones can still be incredibly loud if you're not careful, as in fact is a 2 reed pokerwork.

Because of the way it's built as well as the voicing, I think the Likely box will have a particular sound that I was looking for, but it might be a sound that the later boxes were designed to avoid!  It might seem harsh or thin to some, but I think it will work great for the William Sullivan style and settings.

PG

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KLR

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 09:05:43 AM »

Ordered the William Sullivan CD myself - should sit well on the shelf next to the Michael Kennedy/Kimmel/Quinn records, eh?  That's a cool box too, hope to hear one in the flesh someday.  What a monster sound those things put out. 
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 01:25:51 PM »

KLR,

Thanks for mentioning those great musicians, may they all rest in peace. Embracing a little thread drift, I think Kimmel played German 4-stop boxes.  I'm not sure about Quinn because I have not heard enough of his music (Westport Chorus where someone else plays box, and The Rocks of Bawn / Up Sligo). 

I really like Michael Kennedy's settings of tunes and the raw hearty tone he got from a Hohner 4 stop melodeon in G.  G - row box music is another one of my interests these days and I hope to get a record player again someday to listen to his record after many years just remembering it.  In fact the last time I might have heard his tunes was when Josephine Marsh played a couple of his settings in a brilliant concert in the Burren pub -- and that might have been 15 years ago.  Kennedy's music ought to be reissued as a cd.

Re: hearing the Irish-American accordions play, I agree we don't hear them enough!  It would be great if there were enough public support to establish an Irish-American box festival or weekend, maybe off-season in the Catskills. This means the public has to chip in. Might be a tough sell in today's economy, although I know some great new festivals are starting up.  Some of these Irish-American boxes have made their own reverse emigration and you can hear them being played and recorded by wonderful pro players in Ireland such as Charlie Harris, Danny O'Mahony and Anders Trabjerg.  Some of our friends on this forum play them for sessions and gigs.  Another idea would be a more informal gathering of players themselves  -- something like the annual "banjathon" gathering for the guys who are preserving and playing the pre-war flathead Gibson 5-string banjos that the bluegrass pickers love.  Keep in mind that one reason that certain Irish-American boxes have remained in great shape for 70 years is that these particular boxes were not the barroom warriors, but were mostly played in kitchens and house parties for family and friends.  It's always been an honor for me to visit an older musician at  home and be offered the gift of the music the way that he or she would like it heard.

PG
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 10:58:28 AM by pgroff »
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KLR

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2012, 04:21:06 AM »

I'd imagine you could fire up a US box festival, after all there are tionols for pipers.

There are a few more of those old style melodeon players I've heard, such as Connamara man Tomás Ó Ceannabháin (not the piper, who's still around), who was recorded in 1948, by Séamus Ennis I'd imagine.  He played a big Globe or the like with the bass note held down, ala Gene Kelly.  I've just a pair of tracks of him from an old Long Note program.  Seán McKiernan says he got a reel from him on a tape I have somewhere.  Then there was Pat Murphy, someone uploaded a 78 of him onto YouTube.  Dead simple playing, that. 

Arhoolie, a label based out of El Cerrito California, issued a whole CD of Frank Quinn called If You Are Irish.  A must have.  $20 very well spent.  Get that letter to Santa in the mail tout suite.  You can hear samples at that page.  He made marvelous music altogether.  Another compilation has him playing a jig, the Cherry Blossom, a version of the Mug of Brown Ale; he goes a mile-a-minute and holds down that bass button, which seems to have been an idea that independently occurred to musicians in a whole slew of different cultures.  Maybe they all heard Hungarian bagpipers... :|||:
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2012, 07:16:17 AM »

Thanks KLR!
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2012, 06:40:31 PM »

Hi all,

One more photo, to address complaints that the engraving details (mentioned in post # 20 above) were hard to see in other pics.

PG
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Bill

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »

great find Paul, it is beautiful!
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2012, 12:38:52 AM »

Thanks Bill,

Your Pat Corbett box is a similar treasure, even more so as a part of your family's own history.  I bet some folks here would be very interested to see some of the new pics of that very beautifully crafted Walters.

I added the link to this thread, and the thread on the Pat Corbett Walters 1-row box, to this general discussion of the voicing (and actions) of 6 - 8 reed accordions:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9187.0.html

PG
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 06:04:46 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »

Regarding the bass key slanted cut-out vs. flat panel key mount, I was thinking of the following boxes of the same vintage: Baldoni with the cut out - McNulty, Tom Treacy, Bill Sullivan, J. Cunningham, one owned by Steve Chambers vs. the Walters - Madden, Simon McArdle, J. McDonough, Paddy Ryan. Only your new Baldoni is different??

Hi again Ted,

Expanding on the answer I gave above, to include some new information here:  it appears that P.J. Conlon's fancy (ca. 1928 Baldoni-Bartoli?) accordion had no bass-side cutaway, as seen in the two studio photos now known (the solo photo on the cover of the cd reissue,* and the second photo recently discovered with Conlon and Richard Curran**).  Also, Ray's unlabeled box has no bass-side cutaway.***  The box seemingly labeled "McDempsey" (?) played in the film discussed here ****  has no bass-side cutaway; it has flags on the front of the case so I think it may well be an early Baldoni-Bartoli -- and very wide so may be an 8-voice.  And of course the F. Likely box that's the main subject of this thread.

The T.J. Flanagan box also has no bass-side cutaway but that box may be a Walters; at any rate it has flags on the keyboard so I suspect it would be later.

Then, the Lawless Iorio box (an early 1-row with metal grille, 11 screw-center melody keys and 4 basses that's illustrated in the booklet with the Conlon cd), also had no bass-side cutaway. Also no bass-side cutaway on the box (possibly also an Iorio?) played by Denis Casey (?) in the photo discussed here. *****

So although some early Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row boxes, with screw-center buttons had the cutaway bass side (McNulty, the earliest Carmody box, Treacey, Sullivan, Cunningham, Storer, Meehan), it's possible that the non-cutaway bass side was even earlier -- or the two designs may have been available concurrently.  A series of somewhat similar "1930s black Baldonis with less than 2 full rows" (and the yellow/white pearloid ones that resemble them) -- all boxes with flags on the keyboard and no screws visible in the center of the buttons --  also have that bass-side cutaway; the Radio-Tone (and the similar black 1-row Carmody box) may have been among the earliest Baldonis with flags on the keyboard, but perhaps later than the ones with screw-center buttons.

I think the Walters boxes may also be a bit later than the early, screw-center Baldonis.  So far (with the possible exception of the hard-to-see T. J. Flanagan box, and the Walter Walsh box that may be an early Walters ??) I haven't seen any Walters with screw-center buttons. Walters 1-rows from the 1930s and with flags on the keyboard often had no bass-side cutaway.  But the larger 1930s Walters did often have the cutaway (see photo below).

PG

*
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/conlon.htm

**
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,12985.0.html

***
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3998.html

****
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,12985.msg162954/topicseen.html#msg162954

*****
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,12985.msg159915/topicseen.html#msg159915


« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 06:59:32 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 06:40:45 PM »


There was a short discussion on Raidió na Gaeltachta this morning about the melodeon player
Tomás ó Ceannabháin from An Áird Mhóir in Conamara.
This is my first time hearing him. His nephew Páraic ó Ceannabháin (the flute player), says in the interview that the
recording was made in the 1950's by Seamus Ennis and that as far as he is aware, there are no other
recordings of him.
If anyone can dig out anything else on him, I would love to hear it.
The item starts at 01:11:37 and lasts about 4 minutes.
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=17%3A10205239%3A0%3A%3A

Great stuff Tom, many thanks!

Paul Groff
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mory

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2013, 12:06:12 PM »

Hope Colm doesn't mind but he has a brief clip of himself playing the Ma McNulty Superior box on his face book page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200492953832892&set=vb.1428855032&type=2&theater
I thought others would be interested. AtB mory
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Mike Hirst

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 12:52:08 PM »

Hope Colm doesn't mind but he has a brief clip of himself playing the Ma McNulty Superior box on his face book page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200492953832892&set=vb.1428855032&type=2&theater
I thought others would be interested. AtB mory

lovely playing! thanks for sharing.  ;D
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pgroff

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 02:40:54 PM »

Hope Colm doesn't mind but he has a brief clip of himself playing the Ma McNulty Superior box on his face book page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200492953832892&set=vb.1428855032&type=2&theater
I thought others would be interested. AtB mory

Great stuff mory!  Agree with Mike, that's some box playing.  Here's Colm playing Frank Quinn's version of the Four Courts reel (without the canary choking) from the same visit to Rochester NY where the McNulty Superior box in C has been residing.  John Blake backing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEGHNFrs7zs

This Superior box was probably made more than a decade after the Likely box and has a much deeper tone -- aside from the C pitch it has a wooden soundboard.  In fact, to my ear, the Likely box really sounds quite a bit brighter / crisper / "noisier" in timbre than the Baldonis and Walters made only a few years later.  In a way the Superior has a tone that is a little closer to the Globes -- but these judgments are very subjective and the timbre of a box like this is very dependent on how it has been set up and tuned.  This Superior box has been discussed here on melnet before and is illustrated on Ted McGraw's web pages:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1583
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2620
http://www.tedmcgraw.com/SuperiorStory.html
http://www.tedmcgraw.com/Inside.the.Superior.html

PG
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:42:30 PM by pgroff »
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mory

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Re: F. Likely box, a newly rediscovered Baldoni-Bartoli 1-row
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 03:48:08 PM »

Hi Paul Thanks I hope it was ok to put it here. Feel free to get it moved if it's more appropriate.  I had found the earlier posts and Ted was in touch a while back. Here is one more clip for those interested, Colm with Boys of Tandragree and Scatter the Mud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZmkHejGsoU&gl=US AtB mory
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