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aradru

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« on: December 16, 2012, 08:53:48 PM »

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« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 01:17:04 AM by . »
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george garside

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 09:17:45 PM »

why not   buy a hohner tricord 3  .  B, C & C# same as on A BC & C#D.  D dead easy on BC rows.  12 keys for price of 5 .  CGDA with decent  bass. F & E with a wee bit of accompanyment.   Same weight as primatona  but with 3 voices for all keys rather than the 2 in a 'split' primatona!    Probably work out cheaper  particularly if sale of primatona factored in!
george >:E
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Mike Hirst

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 10:12:17 PM »

'two tone' instruments are not unknown in Tejano circles:

ROSSETTI 34 BUTTON ACCORDION 12 BASS 6 SWITCH 2 TONE GCF/FBE- BLUE ACORDEON
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:15:15 PM by Mike Hirst »
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"Slip like Freudian, your first and last step to playing yourself like an Accordion" - MF DOOM - Madvillain

squeezy

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 10:53:14 PM »

Sounds completely sensible provided the couplers can get between the two tunings ... and provided you don't mind playing a heavy old 4 voice box for just a 2 voice sound which can be hard on the left hand (but I'm a d/g player so am much heavier on the push pull than most B/C or C#/D players would be)

You won't know unless you try!
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Squeezy

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squeezy

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 10:54:06 PM »

Whatever you do ... don't play it on the master coupler though!  That would be horrific.
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Owen Woods

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 11:51:40 PM »

A Trichord isn't necessarily a bad option - how about C#/D/D#? Means that you can use your C#/D fingering on the inner two rows and play a semitone up. Would be no less work than your scheme and you'd end up with a light, responsive box with 12 stradella basses.

In answer to your query however, yes it is possible and has been done. Texmex accordions sometimes have this system and I know of at least one cajun builder who has done it (lafleur of this parish knows more).
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TomB

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »

Would not a C C# D formation cover everything you would need for sessions? Then you wouldn't have to wory about changing the couplers around. I altered the couplers on my PA box and it took quite a bit of thinking about, all I wanted was an 'off switch' for the bass and one for it just to play single reed without losing functionality on the other couplers. Got there eventually but what you propose sounds more complicated.
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Owen Woods

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 12:56:13 AM »

So the question you have to ask yourself is whether the odd twister is worth the extra weight, bulk and cost needed for this scheme? And would it be better to learn to play them on C/C# or D/D#, both of which are great for playing in *some* keys which are not possible on C#/D. I am sure that you are already satisfied that they are not possible to play in a satisfying way on C#/D.

Might help if you give examples of which tunes you are talking about. Is it a matter of keys, or is it particular phrasing which isn't possible?

EDIT: Adding slides is possible, but not utterly straightforward. Making them couplers rather than stops or switches is rather more tricky.
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Andy Simpson

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 01:03:45 AM »

It'd be no problem whatsoever getting the reeds on the blocks, the major sticking point would be the couplers. If the existing ones aren't conducive to a dual key layout then it might be easier to replace them with traditional pull stops; it's not as if you'd need to change keys mid-tune.
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Adam-T

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 08:26:37 AM »

You`ll have to see what blocks have coupler slides in and which pallets operate where to get it to work but looks like a good idea to me - the Primatona is a featherweight. looks like the ideal mod for the box given the current trend for dry tuning in Ireland, could become a standard mod for the Primatonas
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Owen Woods

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 10:19:07 AM »

Oh it is possible. I know that several people have done it. As for whether it is a DIY project, it depends on how good you are. As long as you use stops rather than couplers then you might be OK, but it won't be easy. Someone on here (Keithypete?) did do something like this if memory serves...
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Theo

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 10:39:27 AM »

I've fitted stop slides to bass and chord blocks, as Ukebert says, if you are content with pull stops it is fairly straightforward.   My preferred method is to us very good quality thin ply, usually sold as "aircraft ply",  to make the slide, and narrow strips to glue on the the the base of the reedblock on either side of the slide.  You can cut this material with a sharp knife or chisel, but they do need to be really sharp to avoid tearing.  One thing you have to take some time over is working out the spacing of hole and solid so you can completely cover the holes in the closed position.  This usually means that in the open position the holes will still be partly closed, so you might get a slight reduction in volume compared to the unmodified blocks.
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Adam-T

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 12:32:03 PM »

Wouldn`t there be existing Hohner slides suitable for the Promatona reeblocks, such as the same as the ones in the box already (or Corona, Ouverture ones etc) and just make the slide chamber for them
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pgroff

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 03:22:08 PM »

Hi aradru and all,

First, to aradru, gotta say I love the white Busilacchio in your current profile pic.  There was a 1-row version in that color and from that period for sale recently in Australia.  Great sounding instruments.

Next, here's a suggestion you could try.  Even just as an experiment, before taking on the big job of drastic mods to a Primatona.  Can you handle the weight of the Saltarelle 4 voice boxes such as the (discontinued) Shamrock?  See pic below.  I have a feeling the Tara is a similar box with 8 basses and fewer melody buttons.  I don't know if you could get a new one of either model by special order from Saltarelle, but used ones in excellent condition have sometimes come for sale very cheaply.  Some folks find them too heavy.

My Shamrock is a great sounding, very versatile box.  4 reedblocks on the melody side, 2 blocks dedicated to each melody row, like a Paolo except with the pallets from the inside row opening out toward the audience for a very clear inside-row sound.  Notes from the *outside* row of buttons are a little boxy which is improved by pulling off the grillecloth or the grille and would probably be much improved by fretworking some openings in the keyboard plate.

4 stops which give every possible combination of reedbanks.  Mine happens to be a C#/D in LMMH but I've seen mostly LMMM ones. Shouldn't be too hard to fit BC and C#D reeds in either LM or MM on to the blocks of one originally in LMMM.

In short, if you can find one of these you could realize your dream just by swapping reeds on the existing blocks and using the existing stops in pairs. 

The Shamrock's 12 basses would give you a few options in each set of melody keys.

Even if you buy one to try your idea, then return it to stock and flip it, it could be well worth doing this as a prototype to see whether heavy structural mods to a Primatona would be worth it.

PG
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Adam-T

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 04:12:42 PM »

Sounds wonderful if incredibly expensive paul - Taras are still very pricey on the rare occastions they turn up used (hate to think how much a shamrock would fetch) - the last Primatona very recently went through Fleabay in minty condition for £300 , an ideal target for this mod I`d say - given the current irish trend for dry tuning  kinda makes them redundant thesedays (Shame they didn`t make Quint tuned ones - I`ve not seen one anyway) ..

Saltarelle may want to commission such a box themselves based on your idea but with two couplers - B/C & C#/D based on the Tara.
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Stiamh

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 04:58:40 PM »

If you left all the registers open wouldn't you have the wettest-tuned C/C# in history (B+C# / C+D) ? 200 cents, how many beats per second does that work out to?

pgroff

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »

Sounds wonderful if incredibly expensive paul - Taras are still very pricey on the rare occastions they turn up used (hate to think how much a shamrock would fetch) - the last Primatona very recently went through Fleabay in minty condition for £300 , an ideal target for this mod I`d say - given the current irish trend for dry tuning  kinda makes them redundant thesedays (Shame they didn`t make Quint tuned ones - I`ve not seen one anyway) ..

Saltarelle may want to commission such a box themselves based on your idea but with two couplers - B/C & C#/D based on the Tara.

Hi Adam,

I agree that a 5 - 15 year old 4-voice Saltarelle will  run more than an unrestored Primatona, but then the Primatona would require much more investment of time and ingenuity . . . and the mod may not work well the first time . . . .time and parts are pretty expensive, and the change to the Saltarelle would be reversible so that if you undo it you could likely get most of your money back after the experiment.

Here's a recent Tara, I would say that went cheap for what's in it:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,5126.msg64779.html#msg64779

I know of a few Shamrocks that went for under $2K US, again I think that's undervalued and because some folks have trouble handling them.

PG
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 05:58:01 PM by pgroff »
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Adam-T

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 05:42:31 PM »

Yeah,  it did go cheap, the last one I remember though was around £1700 if I remember rightly though don`t know if it sold. I fully understand your logic , it`d be a lovely box too I guess it depends on how much cash aradru has compared to his fettling skills....
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Keithypete.

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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 06:20:35 PM »

Yes, it was me that modified a Primatona IV. All I did was alter the way the existing coupler mechanism was switched. That is to say, I junked the three switches on the front, and attached a rod & stop to the gubbins, you know - like regular stops. I didn't do anything to the slides or reedblocks. Oh, and made a new grille, not the prettiest thing in the world, but functional.
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Re: A two in one box....without the electronics.
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 10:19:57 PM »

  My preferred method is to us very good quality thin ply, usually sold as "aircraft ply",  to make the slide, and narrow strips to glue on the the the base of the reedblock on either side of the slide.
 
 One thing you have to take some time over is working out the spacing of hole and solid so you can completely cover the holes in the closed position.

What glue would you use? Something that could be dissolved easily I suppose.
Would wax do the job?

I had been wondering about how to drill the holes accurately and getting the alignment correct.
Any tips?

When on Emmanuel Pariselle's 1 Row course we did similar, he taught us the wax the parts that were intended to slide (to prevbent them sticking) and then use them to help position the parts to be glued (PVA).
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