Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Temperaments and things  (Read 15042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2012, 09:55:43 PM »

The biggest discord in ET is the major third which is nearly 15 cents too wide. Doing tuning work and spending a lot of time listening has made me acutely aware of how bad ET thirds are.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3348
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2012, 11:15:38 PM »

Disagree. String players need an ear , not an electronic tuner ! ;)
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

DaveCottrell

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2012, 02:11:10 AM »

The biggest discord in ET is the major third which is nearly 15 cents too wide. Doing tuning work and spending a lot of time listening has made me acutely aware of how bad ET thirds are.

This is how I was taught to tune a piano.   I start by tuning thirds in the middle of the piano.  One learns how fast the "beat"  (i.e., tremolo) should be in this area and each third up the piano should get progressively quicker, and slower towards the lower end.  This "stretches" the temperament over the extent of the piano.  Once the temperament is set in the middle octave and a half, it is a simple matter of octaves up and down to tune the rest.

The biggest advantage to this method is that, by using the overtones produces by the notes played, the tuning is determined by the instrument itself, as opposed to forcing the instrument into a predetermined scale.  I use one tuning fork and no electronics when I tune a piano.

I would assume that an accordion would not produce overtones and sympathetic vibrations to the extent that a piano does, so applying this method to such an instrument might be problematic.  It might be difficult to apply the listening criteria to a free reed instrument that one applies to, say, a guitar, which amplifies more harmonics of each note. 
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10172
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2012, 07:08:56 AM »

Made a lot of sense to me. I remember from Uni physics that the maths of vibrations was "complex"! Those Lissajous figures on the screen really brought the problem to life, thanks.

I've also recently hit the tuning issue myself.   Trying to add some notes to the melodeon explorer I put on the Net last week. I was a couple of notes short of 5 octaves recording off the Gaillard. I used Audacity to nudge the ones I  missed. 

I'm sure its adjustment to pitch was perfect .. but they don't really sound right.  It'll do for what is only a simulation. But another reason to always entrust tuning to a physical box to a proper luthier such as music rooms' Paul Flannery, or our own Theo.  :|glug
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2012, 08:49:05 AM »

The biggest discord in ET is the major third which is nearly 15 cents too wide. Doing tuning work and spending a lot of time listening has made me acutely aware of how bad ET thirds are.

This is how I was taught to tune a piano.   I start by tuning thirds in the middle of the piano.  One learns how fast the "beat"  (i.e., tremolo) should be in this area and each third up the piano should get progressively quicker, and slower towards the lower end.  This "stretches" the temperament over the extent of the piano.
Sorry I don't think that is where the "stretch" comes from, it is just the change in beat rate you get for the same pitch difference as you go to lower or higher fundamental frequencies.
Quote
Once the temperament is set in the middle octave and a half, it is a simple matter of octaves up and down to tune the rest.

The biggest advantage to this method is that, by using the overtones produces by the notes played, the tuning is determined by the instrument itself, as opposed to forcing the instrument into a predetermined scale.  I use one tuning fork and no electronics when I tune a piano.

I would assume that an accordion would not produce overtones and sympathetic vibrations to the extent that a piano does, so applying this method to such an instrument might be problematic.  It might be difficult to apply the listening criteria to a free reed instrument that one applies to, say, a guitar, which amplifies more harmonics of each note.

The overtones from a free reed are all exact multiples of the fundamental, on a string instrument they are not, which is why stretch tuning sounds better on a piano for the reason you have given in your last but one paragraph.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2012, 10:02:07 AM »

Quote
Sorry I don't think that is where the "stretch" comes from, it is just the change in beat rate you get for the same pitch difference as you go to lower or higher fundamental frequencies.

Yes, that would seem to make sense to me too.  Just explaining my thinking on the benefits of using an electronic tuner, ukebert's blog showed the extent of the theoretical tuning problem - one of its implications is that if you are trying to tune an instrument by ear to ET you would have to deliberately introduce apparent discord, by differing but measured amounts as you go up and down in pitch.  Sorry, I just find difficulty in believing that you could do all this by ear as accurately as you could with a tuner, and that anyone would be able to remember all the different numbers of beats for each pitch that you would need to know in order to do it.

To those that say an ear is better, I wonder if they've actually compared the results experimentally?  I've had a go at this with the guitar - my traditional manual tuning technique has been to set the D string first, then use 3/2 harmonics (actually 3/4) on the E, A, and G strings, then compare the octaves, correct them, and try to spread the difference, then tune the B string, normally using the 3rd fret D as an octave above the fourth string.  I now realise (after many years playing!) that my tuner gives a noticeably better result.  With a fiddle, if you use 3/2 for all the strings, the theory demonstrates you will get it noticeably different from ET, and since there is some doubt about the fingered position on the neck with any unfretted instrument, if you tried to check the result, I would suggest you'd be more likely to want to move your finger slightly than to accept the string is tuned wrong. 

The other obvious issue with ear tuning is that of compound errors - if you tune one note to another, you're bound to be slightly out, but it may not be noticeable.  But if you tune a third note to the second, you're probably going to be noticeably out.  And so on.

For an accordion reed, the pitches seem to be purer than with a stringed instrument - if you just select a concert pitch voice, play each note into an electronic tuner (and do it not too long after Theo or another expert has just tuned it!), you will see that all the notes show as being spot on, in tune with ET.  This no doubt just makes the box tuner's job that much more difficult!

I'm interested to know the reasoning behind Theo's major third problem - to what extent is this a) a theoretical problem with ET, b) the fact that you need a similar note for different purposes, or c) the fact that this common interval in Western music is actually a rather grating sound?  I find a similar problem with the B string on a guitar (major third in the key of G major) - if you tune it to the third fret octave D, it sounds OK.  If however you then use that string open to play B in a G chord, it can sound truly awful.
Logged

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3348
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2012, 10:12:57 AM »

. But another reason to always entrust tuning to a physical box to a proper luthier such as music rooms' Paul Flannery, or our own Theo.  :|glug

Other melodeon tuners are available  :D
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2012, 10:23:39 AM »


I'm interested to know the reasoning behind Theo's major third problem - to what extent is this a) a theoretical problem with ET,
It is a real problem with ET,  the ET major third is 13.69 cents wider than a pure interval based on a ratio of 5:4.
Quote
b) the fact that you need a similar note for different purposes, or

Yes that is the essence of the "tuning problem"
Quote
c) the fact that this common interval in Western music is actually a rather grating sound?
It is grating because we are so accustomed to hearing it in ET.  A major third in just intonation is much smoother
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3690
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

George Lowden obviously has thoughts on the matter! It looks like the fanned fret guitar is his attempt at putting things right!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 12:17:36 PM by tallship »
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2012, 01:35:35 PM »

"Stretched" tuning happens on a piano because with strings which are relatively stiff (both ends of piano scale) the harmonics are sharp compared to the fundamental; if piano tuners don't stretch the tuning the 2nd harmonic of the lower string beats with the fundamental of the string an octave above it. Since the ear is more sensitive to beats than absolute pitch (especially at low and high frequencies) the intervals at both ends of the keyboard become bigger, this sounds better than having the fundamentals "on pitch".

The same is true of any stringed instrument where the strings are relatively stiff for their length. With free-reed instruments all the harmonics are defined by the cyclic position of the reed so harmonics are always exact multiples of the fundamental.

Quarter-comma tuning (which I independently came up with about 20 years ago, only to discover Aaron beat me to it by 400 years) does mean a diatonic box could be in much better tune with itself in all the usable keys. Unfortunately for each key away from the "root" key the pitch gets further and further away from equal temperament, so it wouldn't sound good played with ET instruments...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 02:28:15 PM by IanD »
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 01:55:59 PM »

George Lowden obviously has thoughts on the matter! It looks like the fanned fret guitar is his attempt at putting things right!


I don't think so, I think it's because he has a different scale length on each string to improve tension on the different strings. I came across this on custom bass guitars back when I played; the longer scale was to improve the sound on the low E and on 5 and greater string basses on the low B and the (rare) low F#.

I don't know if this has been discussed but is it due to temperament issues that left-hand chords with the thirds in usually sound rubbish against the right hand or is it because the degree of swing on 2-voice boxes puts the perceived pitch of the right hand out with exactly tuned basses?

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3690
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 02:11:51 PM »

I don't think so, I think it's because he has a different scale length on each string to improve tension on the different strings. I came across this on custom bass guitars back when I played; the longer scale was to improve the sound on the low E and on 5 and greater string basses on the low B and the (rare) low F#.

My post was tongue in cheek to say the least!  ::)

Quote
I don't know if this has been discussed but is it due to temperament issues that left-hand chords with the thirds in usually sound rubbish against the right hand or is it because the degree of swing on 2-voice boxes puts the perceived pitch of the right hand out with exactly tuned basses?

I always play my three voice box with the thirds stop out and my two voice Liliput doesn't have thirds in the chords which gets over major/minor and temperament issues nicely!
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 02:37:23 PM »

George Lowden obviously has thoughts on the matter! It looks like the fanned fret guitar is his attempt at putting things right!


I don't think so, I think it's because he has a different scale length on each string to improve tension on the different strings. I came across this on custom bass guitars back when I played; the longer scale was to improve the sound on the low E and on 5 and greater string basses on the low B and the (rare) low F#.

I don't know if this has been discussed but is it due to temperament issues that left-hand chords with the thirds in usually sound rubbish against the right hand or is it because the degree of swing on 2-voice boxes puts the perceived pitch of the right hand out with exactly tuned basses?
With "traditional|" two-voice tuning (one reed concert pitch, one sharp) the right hand is out of tune with both itself (octaves aren't true) and the basses, this gets worse the faster the tremolo is so it's most obvious on wider tunings like old Hohners.

Thankfully nowadays more and more people with two-voice boxes are using a tuning with reeds equally sharp and flat which I started promoting about 20 years ago and which has become named after me, though Nils Nielsen told me that this was popular for two-voice accordions many years ago when it was called Viennese tuning.

Ian (Dedic)
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6361
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 03:10:55 PM »

I don't know if this has been discussed but is it due to temperament issues that left-hand chords with the thirds in usually sound rubbish against the right hand or is it because the degree of swing on 2-voice boxes puts the perceived pitch of the right hand out with exactly tuned basses?

The thirds sound rubbish by themselves if they are ET, for reasons described by Theo.
Martyn White tuned my Binci Pro with the LH chords in Just Tuning, which makes them sound much sweeter by themselves and with RH notes corresponding to the root and fifth of the chord (which even in ET are close enough), but if you play the 3rd of the chord in the RH against the left hand chord there is a bit of a scrunch as the RH's ET 3rd is very sharp to the LH "just" 3rd.

But IanD's point also applies...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3348
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 03:45:21 PM »

I don't know if this has been discussed but is it due to temperament issues that left-hand chords with the thirds in usually sound rubbish against the right hand or is it because the degree of swing on 2-voice boxes puts the perceived pitch of the right hand out with exactly tuned basses?

The thirds sound rubbish by themselves if they are ET, for reasons described by Theo.
Martyn White tuned my Binci Pro with the LH chords in Just Tuning, which makes them sound much sweeter by themselves and with RH notes corresponding to the root and fifth of the chord (which even in ET are close enough), but if you play the 3rd of the chord in the RH against the left hand chord there is a bit of a scrunch as the RH's ET 3rd is very sharp to the LH "just" 3rd.

But IanD's point also applies...

I dont know how Paul from MR tuned my Binci Pro, but the basses sound sweet and the RH thirds don't seem to scrunch. Hopefully Anahata sometime this year we can put the two Pros side by side and check for differences!  (I asked our morris team organiser bloke to invite your lot to our September weekend of dance in York   :D)
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »

@Tallship: oops! My bad

Others, thanks for the insight.

Martyn

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
  • Hohnerohner
    • Martyn White Melodeon Tuning and Repairs
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 08:43:30 PM »

The problem with the sharp right hand thirds in ET becomes less of a problem when Viennese/Dedic tuning is used.

Martyn
Logged
'Anything from a small repair to a full restoration'.
www.melodeonrepairs.co.uk

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3690
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 08:58:46 PM »

@Tallship: oops! My bad
No worries, I just didn't want you thinking I was that far off the mark! Sorry if it sounded a bit churlish.  :|bl
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)

Owen Woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3894
  • melodeonmusic.com
    • The website and blog of Owen Woods
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 10:33:08 PM »

The overtones from a free reed are all exact multiples of the fundamental, on a string instrument they are not, which is why stretch tuning sounds better on a piano for the reason you have given in your last but one paragraph.

I've never been quite satisfied with this. If you hit or pluck a reed then the overtones aren't harmonic (I've done maths and things), why are they harmonic when excited through air?

Mind you, if you pluck a reed then they are very nearly harmonic and tend to harmonic very quickly, so it's a moot point really.
Logged
Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#

Latest blog post: In Any Weather

http://melodeonmusic.com/blog

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3690
Re: Temperaments and things
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 10:55:43 PM »

I've never been quite satisfied with this. If you hit or pluck a reed then the overtones aren't harmonic (I've done maths and things), why are they harmonic when excited through air?

Mind you, if you pluck a reed then they are very nearly harmonic and tend to harmonic very quickly, so it's a moot point really.

At the risk of sounding foolish isn't the act of starting a reed by hitting or plucking it very different from introducing a sudden flow of air into a chamber? Plucking or striking will cause an immediate full swing cycle - or even an over swing if the mechanical intervention is excessive. However suddenly you introduce an airflow into a chamber that still has to get the reed momentum going from scratch so the swing cycle starts and builds in a natural way, the harmonics are a reflection of the standing waves produced. Doesn't it follow that if you over excite a reed initially by hitting it or plucking it with too much force you will set up 'wolf tone' harmonics too?

Please don't shout too loudly, to say physics isn't my thing is an understatement to say the least!
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal