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Author Topic: categories and patterns in folk music  (Read 4838 times)

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GPS

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 09:00:29 AM »


Then again, MT's waltz is not really a waltz

Mozart thought it was, and he wrote it.......KV 536, No. 2, ‘Six German Dances’; Waltz in G

Graham
Are you sure he called it a waltz? It looks to me as if it forms the "trio" of a 3-part piece. The sections before it are in 3/4 too but very un-waltz-like - possibly more like a minuet or even a laendler. Admittedly he wound't have called it a mazurka either, but I still think it doesn't make a good waltz tune - there are too many notes, which makes it too bumpy. That's why it doesn't seem to work when people stick a smoother waltz on to the end of it.

Well, if I'm 100% honest I can't be absolutely sure!  It's generally referred to as "Waltz in G" but it may have been called that by later catalogue compilers. Mozart would have been familiar with the waltz, though.  I'm not convinced that it's the number of notes that might make one think of it as un-waltzlike; after all, many Strauss waltzes are "notier", and Chopin's Grande Valse Brillante is smothered in quavers; it's more to do with the "swing" , the "pulse" and getting just the right speed.  Incidentally, on a pedantic note, "Ländler" DOES have an umlaut (or the "e" that you quite correctly included in your post) in the singular; the "a" is modified by the addition of the "ler" suffix. Sorry - retired languages teacher! :D

Cheers
Graham
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 10:28:07 AM by GPS »
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Sage Herb

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 09:28:48 AM »

Despite its classical origins, we should remember how 'Michael Turner's waltz' found its way into the English folk repertory. It appears (untitled) in the manuscript book of Mr Turner (1796-1880), bootmaker, fiddler and churchwarden of Warnham in Sussex. The ms book seems to date from 1842-52. This and many other tunes from Sussex manuscripts were published in 1981 in 'The Sussex Tune Book', edited by Anne Loughran and Vic Gammon. I don't know whether the term 'waltz' was applied by the editors or was in the manuscript, but I'll ask Vic and post the answer.
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Steve
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Marje

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 09:45:40 AM »

Despite its classical origins, we should remember how 'Michael Turner's waltz' found its way into the English folk repertory. It appears (untitled) in the manuscript book of Mr Turner (1796-1880), bootmaker, fiddler and churchwarden of Warnham in Sussex. The ms book seems to date from 1842-52. This and many other tunes from Sussex manuscripts were published in 1981 in 'The Sussex Tune Book', edited by Anne Loughran and Vic Gammon. I don't know whether the term 'waltz' was applied by the editors or was in the manuscript, but I'll ask Vic and post the answer.
Cheers
Steve
I have a copy of the Sussex Tune Book". The tune is listed as "Untitled Waltz" (one of several, but the only one that's from Turner's manuscripts). Given that it was untitled, it seems unlikely that Turner called it a "waltz" - it most likely just appeared as a tune. He probably didn't intend to claim authorship either - these tune books were often like the  collections of session tunes we assemble for ourselves today.
Of course, it  is also possible that it was an older folk melody that Mozart chose to incorporate into his suite of dances.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 12:12:10 PM »

I still think it doesn't make a good waltz tune - there are too many notes, which makes it too bumpy.

I am not sure that "too many notes" disqualifies a tune from being a waltz. Many French waltzes have a smooth A part followed by a "bumpier" B or C part containing a lot of notes (e.g. Valse à Bonnejoie, Morgane, La Marianne, Callipyge, La Femme à Deux Maris, Le Bout du Monde).
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waltzman

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 02:51:36 PM »

I agree that it is very easy to feel the lilt of a mazurka in Michael Turner's waltz and play it that way.  I think the note pattern of a quarter note followed by four eighth notes is extremely common in the mazurka.....at least the French variety.
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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2012, 08:29:24 AM »

Incidentally, on a pedantic note, "Ländler" DOES have an umlaut (or the "e" that you quite correctly included in your post) in the singular; the "a" is modified by the addition of the "ler" suffix. Sorry - retired languages teacher! :D
[quick consultation of wife's Langenscheidt dictionary...]
So it does indeed. I stand corrected and I've learned something new today.  (:)
However, I'm slightly surprised that even on German language posts (e.g. Karin Seyringer's Youtube referred to earlier in this thread) the umlaut is omitted even when umlauts on other words are included. Is this a sign of language evolution perhaps? 
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Anahata

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »

Karin is Austrian. They speak a rather different sort of German there. That might account for different spelling, but I'm no expert.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: categories and patterns in folk music
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »

On a quick Google, there does seem to be some variation and I guess either is acceptable. I first met with the music for a Tyrolean dance, Stutzi Lander, which appears officially umlaut-less.
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