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Author Topic: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes  (Read 13818 times)

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Clive Williams

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Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« on: January 01, 2013, 01:24:15 AM »

(or 8 time waltzes or 11 time waltzes or ...) You get the idea. This month, it's those assymmetric waltzes, where you count 1-2-3-1-2, or 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2, etc. The most commonly known tune from the English tradition like this is probably Searching for Lambs, although there are many more, especially the newer compositions from the continent.

Or, of course, you can take a 4/4 (or other time signature) tune, and tweak it, er, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6YdKCFRxJw

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHbd04sMPo

Good luck everyone - playing in 5/4 etc is quite a skill, but very enjoyable once you get your head around it.

Cheers,

Clive




Perhaps it'll be a little clearer once we get a few examples in? :-)

Sandy

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 12:08:14 PM »

Thank goodness for the explanation Clive. I would have thought you just had to play a waltz five times through  ::)

I'll need to look at examples to get the gist.

HNY

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 12:47:24 PM »

Yipee - it's only the 1st of January and I've already got a chance to cheat! When Planxty Irwin was TOTM I gave it a go in 5/4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26OTWPn5pT0
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bellmartin

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 06:24:47 PM »

A tribute to Dave Brubeck, may he rest in peace, and Take Five.
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 10:25:06 PM »

I know some 5/4 tunes but they're hornpipes.
And I'd love to hear somebody playing Take Five on a melodeon, but I'd never have thought of it as a waltz...
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 10:45:55 PM »

I know some 5/4 tunes but they're hornpipes.
And I'd love to hear somebody playing Take Five on a melodeon, but I'd never have thought of it as a waltz...

This does raise a number of questions about time signatures in general. How can you take a compound time signature and assign it a simple time name and expect it to make sense? i.e. 5/4 (compound time) becomes a five time (simple 3/4) waltz? I get the whole idea of counting compound time in twos and threes and I can even see the logic in making top heavy time signatures split time i.e. 5/4 = 1-2-3,1-2 or 1-2,1-2-3 but adding the name of a well defined rhythm like 'Waltz' is nonsensical to me.

Please point me to the nearest 12/8 polka and 7/8 schottiche, ta!  :Ph  (Oh and a 9/8 rant would be good!)
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Clive Williams

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 11:29:53 PM »

I know some 5/4 tunes but they're hornpipes.
And I'd love to hear somebody playing Take Five on a melodeon, but I'd never have thought of it as a waltz...

Let's face it, we're not going to have a 5/4 hornpipe theme, so now seems a good time to bend the rules a bit and let us hear them!

I've been trying to get my head around Astor Piazolla's Oblivion (8 time) recently; it's a fantastic piece, but I'm nowhere near good enough to be able to arrange/play it yet, or realistically this month. A long term project I think...

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 11:38:23 PM »

How can you take a compound time signature and assign it a simple time name and expect it to make sense?

As usual, things like this make more sense when you remember that they are dances, not just tunes.
I don't know how the steps for a 5/4 waltz go, but I would assume that it's closely related to a 3/4 waltz in feet movement and style, so if you are a dancer you'll recognise it as a type of waltz.

We've recently had a thread demolishing the notion that a 3/4 tune is a waltz. Similarly a waltz is not  a 3/4 tune. It's a class of dances, of which the most common is in 3/4.
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 11:49:56 PM »

Let's face it, we're not going to have a 5/4 hornpipe theme, so now seems a good time to bend the rules a bit and let us hear them!

Oh, all right then.
But I've just been spending about an hour trying to learn a tricky minor-key 5/4 waltz I found on the net. It took a long time to be able to play it well enough to have a clue how the flow of the tune went, but now I'm nearly there I think I've found a really pretty tune with some nice possibilities in bass and harmony and I am going to learn it.

John Kirkpatrick's The Gas Almost Works is a 5/4 hornpipe, and Greg Trice, the mad accordion player with Chelmsford Morris in the 1970s, wrote the Moulsham Street Hornpipe in 5/4 to go with it.

Not ready for videos/recordings right now, but it'll get done this month.
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 07:39:13 AM »

I know some 5/4 tunes but they're hornpipes.
And I'd love to hear somebody playing Take Five on a melodeon, but I'd never have thought of it as a waltz...
This theme is beginning to sound like mission impossible!
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2013, 10:13:12 AM »

I get the whole idea of counting compound time in twos and threes and I can even see the logic in making top heavy time signatures split time i.e. 5/4 = 1-2-3,1-2 or 1-2,1-2-3 but adding the name of a well defined rhythm like 'Waltz' is nonsensical to me.


It's named that way because it is a recognised dance form in France so try searching for "valse a cinque temps and you will find plenty of examples.   Here is a tutorial on one way of doing the dance.  He counts 1-2,1-2-3, ect  whereas you can also think of it as 1-2-3,1-2,

And here is an example of a five time waltz at its slinky and sexy best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6FWy7fr0w
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 10:16:27 AM by Theo »
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 12:23:43 PM »

How are we dancers expected to cope? Grow more feet?  :-*
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Theo

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 01:17:23 PM »

Not at all! In a 3/4waltz you use the feet in the following order:
Lrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlr etc

In a 5/4waltz you use the feet in the following order:
Lrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlrlr etc

Simples!
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2013, 02:09:41 PM »

OK, Clive, challenge accepted:

https://soundcloud.com/chrisbrimley/auld-lang-syne-5-4

I originally tried doing this tune in 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/8 and then 7/8, but gave up because it:  a) was too difficult; and b) just sounded silly. 

Happy New Year, melnet.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 04:32:25 PM by Chris Brimley »
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2013, 05:40:06 PM »

Auld Lang Syne works really well in 5! Nice!
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Gary Chapin

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 06:31:41 PM »

How can you take a compound time signature and assign it a simple time name and expect it to make sense? i.e. 5/4 (compound time) becomes a five time (simple 3/4) waltz?
You can't.  Is everything in 4/4 immediately understood to be a reel (or schottisch or hornpipe)?  All of these judgements happen within context.  In the context that I draw from -- French with a heavy Alsatian seasoning -- the odd-time waltz is well loved.  I'll post one this evening.  Learned it from a Patrick Bouffard recording ... though mine is far simpler than his.
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 06:38:19 PM »

These are very popular at Bals in France now, they are tricky to dance to, but the easiest one to start learning is the 8 time, so it goes (usually) calling for a gent, waltz step left, waltz step right then a 1-2 (left-right) which means that you start again on the left.  Check out Parasol on YouTube who compose, play and teach these.  The dancers have to work hard listening for the the 1-2, particularly in the 11 time where it could be at the end of the phrase or earlier.  :|glug could drive you to drink ;D

John
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Gary Chapin

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 10:06:17 PM »

Here you go.  Did this within minutes of getting home this evening.  A very basic 5 Time waltz that allows for a lot of flexibility in arrangement.

http://accordeonaire.blogspot.com/2013/01/waltz-in-five.html

Played on my Salterelle Pastourelle, which seems to have gotten better after a month or so with a goofy reed.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 10:59:46 PM »

Here you go.  Did this within minutes of getting home this evening.  A very basic 5 Time waltz that allows for a lot of flexibility in arrangement.

Thanks Gary, that's lovely! My head absolutely will not accept what you're playing - but my soul is dancing along merrily!

Pete.

Edit: Apostrophe crime!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 10:16:43 AM by tallship »
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Re: Theme of the Month for January 2013: Five Time Waltzes
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 11:37:14 PM »

Since Clive opened up the parameters, here's another one, La porcher, an Alsatian tune that's not exactly a 5 time waltze, but is a scottish/waltz/marche ... meaning it will alternate between bars of four, bars of three, and bars of two.

http://youtu.be/UaYCSgUQA5I

If that's off topic, Clive, let me know!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 12:21:57 AM by Gary Chapin »
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