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[alaskairishbox]

Hello,
I am new to the box. I have developed left shoulder pain on the forward edge of th rotator cuff.
I am pretty sure that my obsessivly long practices are the primary cause. However I am wondering if there is a certain playing position that is more apt to cause this problem. I now realize that my left elbow is tucked tightly against my body when I play. This means the movemeny primarily comes from the shoulder as opposed to the elbow. Is the left elbow supposed to be slightly raised? That would reduce shoulder rotation in favor of elbow movement, I think?

Every hear of this kind of issue? Any advice?

[Steve_freereeder]

Hello,
I am new to the box. I have developed left shoulder pain on the forward edge of th rotator cuff.
I am pretty sure that my obsessivly long practices are the primary cause. However I am wondering if there is a certain playing position that is more apt to cause this problem. I now realize that my left elbow is tucked tightly against my body when I play. This means the movemeny primarily comes from the shoulder as opposed to the elbow. Is the left elbow supposed to be slightly raised? That would reduce shoulder rotation in favor of elbow movement, I think?

Every hear of this kind of issue? Any advice?

I think there are two main points to make here:

1. Take your practice times easy - obsessively long sessions with no breaks are not a good idea. Now you have developed this pain, I would suggest a total break from playing for a few days, but do keep exercising your arm/shoulders - both of them. Gentle rotating movements are good. Pretend to be two long slow windmills with each arm.

Once you get back into practicing, start gently; no more than 10 or 15 minutes on the first day. Then gradually build it up on subsequent days. Don't play continuously for more than 15 - 20 minutes or so without taking a short break, say 10 - 15 minutes during which you do something else - have a cuppa, move around, take a walk, have a dance, etc.

2. The playing position you describe: "my left elbow is tucked tightly against my body when I play" does not sound good at all. Your left elbow should be moving away from your body out and back when you work the bellows. The axis of the bellows when moving should stay more or less in a straight line when viewed from above*.

Hope this helps.

* Some players do angle the bellows down on the outward pull stroke and up on the inward push stroke, but that is mainly accordion technique for larger heavier instruments which don't have so much push-pull action.

[Steve_freereeder]

Here are some links to videos which show good bellows movement technique:

http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/tune-130-emma.html
http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/tune-69-harpers-frolic.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9-qVsSKPWg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqQg7_NgOnY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37enH-iK388
(such economy of movement on both of these  )

Managing a large diatonic box:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KVF1T0dps

[xgx]

Ultrasound scan today on me Right shoulder... similar in that rotator cuff injury has been diagnosed...

Woke up one morning with the pain there ... reckon mine's primarily old age and rising damp   Can't blame Jezebel, haven't been near her in months

Best advice is, if you haven't already done so, seek medical advice rather than 'quackery' 

[Theo]

Here are some links to videos which show good bellows movement technique:

http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/tune-130-emma.html
http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/tune-69-harpers-frolic.html

OK for the left hand, but I would advise against dropping  the shoulder strap down the right upper arm.   This can happen of its own accord if you are totally relaxed about your playing, but its not something to use to begin with imho.

Aim for being relaxing while still getting the sound you want.  Easier said than done I know, but its the key to go playing as well as avoiding injury.

[Graham Spencer]

Here are some links to videos which show good bellows movement technique:

http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/tune-130-emma.html
http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/tune-69-harpers-frolic.html

OK for the left hand, but I would advise against dropping  the shoulder strap down the right upper arm.   This can happen of its own accord if you are totally relaxed about your playing, but its not something to use to begin with imho.

Aim for being relaxing while still getting the sound you want.  Easier said than done I know, but its the key to go playing as well as avoiding injury.

All this helps to show there is no "correct" position for playing the melodeon, and you have to find one that works for you.  I, for instance, could never cope with having the box as far over to the left as Lester has his. Playing in a sitting position my box rests on my right knee, which in turn means much less extension of the left arm. Horses for courses......

Graham

[Sandy]

Are you playing 'standing up' or 'sitting down' ?

Just out of interest and not necessarily a recommendation ...

I had a bad frozen shoulder for a couple of years and had to change my style of playing. I used to play with two straps and mainly standing up but had to switch to one strap and sit down for box control. It wasn't easy at first but it was the only way I could play without pain. The left hand was quite low and bellows at an angle but allowed me to play with no movement in shoulder. Although the left hand is not so low since my shoulder has improved, it's much more comfortable to me than what I did before and feels right.
Probably not the best technique but I'm happy with it.

I would seek advice from medic/physio re. your shoulder but check they play the box before giving you advice on a playing position

Cheers,
Sandy
p.s. I'd stand on my head if it was the only way I could play 

[hubert]

hello Sandy, I have the same trouble, I also wondered about using a (mally strap) but cant get  the box to rest on my thigh its a bit of a nightmare, and the shoulder is murder, I find letting more air in on the draw stroked helps....Hubert

[Lester]

OK for the left hand, but I would advise against dropping  the shoulder strap down the right upper arm.   This can happen of its own accord if you are totally relaxed about your playing, but its not something to use to begin with imho.

I adopted this style when I was a lot fatter than I am now (hard to believe I know  ) and could not get a strap long enough to go over my shoulder and round my gut and get the box in the place I wanted it. It has since just remained that way, I can and do play for many hours with the strap like that with no problems. YMMV

[Sandy]

hello Sandy, I have the same trouble, I also wondered about using a (mally strap) but cant get  the box to rest on my thigh its a bit of a nightmare, and the shoulder is murder, I find letting more air in on the draw stroked helps....Hubert

I don't feel I need a Mally strap but know a few people who are really happy with them. I found it easier sitting down once I'd shifted the box to the left a bit. It's then a choice of whether you cross legs or not and press the box againt right leg for stability. Good Luck with it all.

Also the shoulder feels much more comfortable now with a lighter box for English style tunes with lots of bellow reversals.

Sandy
 

[Chris Ryall]

Don't know your repertoire, but generally speaking the push-pull "English style" of play does upset shoulders more than crossing the rows fingering as (I'g guess  guess) there are about 50% more direction changes, and moreover these are often "at speed". Using heavier kit: ditto. I took delivery of a Mory 21 years ago, and specifically "worked out" with weights for a month before it came. 

But it really was to heavy to play in that way and I set about re-fingering my favourite tunes to use the sections of scale available 'between the rows'. 

There's actually quite a lot. Attached a "bog standard" 2½-er. I've labelled its E "natural" minor run, using the "so useful" reversed note of the half row. That minor has C_nat as note 6, but if you are being folky and prefer dorian minor (D scale notes, so its 6=C#) it's still a pull note on the D row!

Only 2 rows?  No matter! Use the same fingering against whole bars of Em or D pull chords (nice in dorian minor), all your shoulder has to do is a little flick for the D/E at the top of the scale.

It then becomes a matter of getting your fingers up to playing with the verve that along the row style seems to produce naturally.  But at least your arm is on the melodeon .. rather than in a sling 

So smear on yer Voltarol gel (worked for my elbow) and do what the nice Physio lady says. Once it's settled think towards a more economical style to stop it happening again. Once proficient you will find you are doing only brief push phrases, and that you can let the left end drop under own weight with no shoulder effort at all.   

[Graham Spencer]

Attached a "bog standard" 2½-er 

Whatever that may be! I'd always assumed my Saltarelle 2.4 was "bog-standard", as its half-row is and always has been exactly as it came from the factory, so it came as bit a surprise when I played someone else's ostensibly similar Saltarelle to discover my half-row wasn't the same as his (also unaltered from the factory layout). That started me scrounging a play on any other 2.4s (of any make) I could find, to find that about half of them were the same as my friend's, none of them was the same as mine, a couple of others were the same as each other but different from the two that started the "research" and one was different from any of the others!  If there's that much room for variation in a 4-button half-row there must be much more if your half-row has 5 buttons.

Just a thought.....

[rees]

There is no standard layout for 2.5 row which is why it's such a pain in the neck for us dealer types to keep them in stock!

[george garside]

my threepeneth!   

 Using two wide padded straps  (the wider the better) can greatly help to distibute the weight on the shoulder and prevent pain that can be caused by narrow leather straps digging in.

 Strap adjustment is crucial and needs to be experimented with to make the box fit its person comfortably.  Baic starting position is to have right strap a couple of holes longer than left strap so right hand end of box is in middle of chest.  Hight adjustment is then made up or down by equal lengthening or shortening of straps from a starting point of about a stretched handswidth below the chin when looking directly ahead.  This of  course only applies to two strapists and works fine sitting or standing.  I personally use 2 straps anad find using one leads to all sorts of contortions particularly when standing  - but  many are happy with one strap.

Belows  movement is possibly the single most important part of playing technique  and the bellows are rather like the bow to a fidler, being responsible for most of the dynamics  and some of the rhythm  i.e. the 'expression'  depends on delicate use of the bellows.

However  because of the need to sometimes use the air button to make major bellows adjustments there are also some course movements required  which need to be done unobtrusively midst the delicate stuff!

To do all this with the bellowss requires a combination of action/articulation  of the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints  with the shoulder being largely responsible for taking the bellows right out,t;he elbow for lesser in/out movements and the wrist for fine control of dynamics and rhythm.  It therefore follows that whatever number of straps used and however one sits or stands  it is essential to do so in a way that permits the forgoing movements without bits feeling uncomfartable - hence the need for much experimentation to achieve this in a way best suited to both; ones anaatomy and the need to freely  operate the box

The technique of playing with the bellows    'tight',  say between 4 and 12 inches open,  reduces strain on left shoulder/elbow/wrist so is well worth developing


george

[Stiamh]

To judge from your forum name and the fact that you have a B/C it seems you intend to play mainly Irish music. If so you might find this clip on using minimal left-arm movement useful. At least one player has, reporting that her left-arm fatigue and pain cleared up immediately on trying this technique.

Good luck, and go easy on the old body.

[Graham Spencer]

The technique of playing with the bellows    'tight',  say between 4 and 12 inches open,  reduces strain on left shoulder/elbow/wrist so is well worth developing

george

I couldn't agree more.  Many, MANY years ago when I started playing a PA, before I discovered the melodeon, almost the first piece of advice I was given was to try never to have the bellows more than one-third open. It's very sound advice and although, even all these years and a change of instrument later, it doesn't always happen, keeping bellows movement to a minimum is something I always try to observe.  It's not so easy on a push-pull box to keep to as little as a third, but it's a good principle to use as little bellows as you need rather than as much as you think you can handle.

Graham

[911377brian]

@ GPS.. thats got to be right.When I began playing [not long ago!] I thought I'd nackered my left arm forever, but put it down to building houses combined with old age. Then I got George Garside's starter book and have tried but not always succeeded to heed his advice, keep bellows as closed as possible and use the wrist to keep them moving..it worked for me...  

[george garside]

To judge from your forum name and the fact that you have a B/C it seems you intend to play mainly Irish music. If so you might find this clip on using minimal left-arm movement useful. At least one player has, reporting that her left-arm fatigue and pain cleared up immediately on trying this technique.

 .

I use the 'hinge' teqnique  and the slight bend in the bellows  both seated and standing when playing semitone 2 row boxes.. But as mentioned in the exellent clip much more bellows movement is required if using the bass.  The same extreme tightness can be achieved on a DG box provided the   field is levelled by only playing the melody.

So a couple of points for DG players

leaving the bass off for a phrase or even a few bars can actualy greatly enhance a tune by throwing the emphasis onto a tricky or interesting bit of the melody.  so take advantage of this free of charge ornementation (r'supards type)  particulary where  the bellows would otherwise go ever outwards.  Other 'economies of air'  can be had by dropping the  bass note (um)here and there and just playing a light tap on the chord (pa)  .  Another free bargain to be had is to take advanatage of the fact that a DG box tendss to play 'in'' so (all things being equal) going a bit heavy on the bass when the bellows need bringing back can help eg play a drone of bass & chord down together over a few treble notes.

[Chris Ryall]

There is no standard layout for 2.5 row which is why it's such a pain in the neck for us dealer types to keep them in stock!

Agreed - though there are a few "Cuttings" about! But with respect - my point was wrt the weight of the box, and the pectoral and orthopaedic advantages of not playing like a light one row!

[Lester]

Another free bargain to be had is to take advanatage of the fact that a DG box tendss to play 'in'' so (all things being equal) going a bit heavy on the bass when the bellows need bringing back can help eg play a drone of bass & chord down together over a few treble notes.

Whilst this is mostly true if you play minor key tunes the bellows tend to 'out' but the same 'cures' will be effective.

I found playing my Castganari Migon focused the mind as it had no air button