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[Johnf]

I also try to do the "new" finger when possible. This is something I picked up when I was taking anglo concertina lessons and my teacher told me as a rule never use the same finger twice in a row on two different buttons. I do it a lot more on my B/C box but I still try to limit it where I can which was one of the hardest parts about trying to play with only 3 fingers for me.

Also I like that last bit about "learn to play the instrument" as opposed to "learn to play a tune [on the instrument]". I'm still just a beginner on the B/C box but I have run into this on other instruments and found that learning new tunes comes much easier when you learn the instrument, which for me sometimes means practicing a lot of scales and techniques along with learning tunes. I know especially in trad/folk music this is a hotly debated subject along with things like reading sheet music but I feel the more weapons at my disposal the better off I'll be.
[/quote]

I find it natural to use all four fingers and will probably continue to do so on the B/C. As far as hand angle, I will certainly find what works for me. Do many B/C players actually use a thumbstrap? If they do I expect you would be required to use your pinky. All very interesting and everything makes sense to me.

I long ago got the "hang" of my C row. Now with the B/C box I am doing two things: learning the "Irish" playing rythmn and style (quite different from "Cajun") and learning the patterns for different keys. I have been learning to play scales more than tunes themselves. In the past I have always played by ear (though I am working hard on reading notation these days).
I feel I am learning to "play the instrument" instead of songs, as you say. On a one row in C, it has never been a problem playing songs in G as you pretty much ignore the missing F# and "fill in". Same sort of thing can be said about playing in F and even D to some degree. It is very nice to have that C#.

[george garside]

learning where each and every note is by name is more or less essential if playing from the dots.  It is however  surprisingly useful if learning by ear .  For both disciplines I consider scales to be very useful not only for the development of manual dexterity but so that you will know where the note 4 higher of 3 lower , or whatever, is.  In the long term  it is also more useful than learning funny patterns !

george

[Chris Brimley]

I can't see any problem with starting playing 'on the row'   as in anyway limiting accross row playing

George, I agree there's no particular reason why it should, but I often see 2 and 3 row quint box players playing along the row and then playing inappropriate LH chords simply because they haven't realised that by swapping rows there's an easier fingering readily available, which would easily allow a more appropriate chord and less work. 

I've thought that the logical extension of this principle on a semitone accordion might be to use finger slides more as part of fingering technique, but it seems that's not so?  What's the attraction of the 'different finger' principle?  Does it make it easier to learn tunes for the future?  In the case I discussed of the 5-note roll, I don't see that it would be physically feasible to use different fingers to replace the slides, because I can't see how hands could work that fast - but there may be an underlying learning principle at stake?

[Stiamh]

I've thought that the logical extension of this principle on a semitone accordion might be to use finger slides more as part of fingering technique, but it seems that's not so?

I'm not sure you've taken a statistically significant sampling of half-step box players, Chris.    There are teachers in the Irish box world who discourage sliding whenever it can be avoided (it's my belief it simply can't be avoided always). There are other teachers that see nothing wrong with sliding whenever it is useful.

I have no problem with sliding and do it quite a lot. But there are places where I have found it is safer and cleaner to use separate fingers in passages where you could easily slide. Whatever works.

5-note rolls, since you mention them, are very easy to execute without sliding, if you start them on the middle finger. (On a B/C or C#/D, I see that above you are discussing something different.)

[Chris Brimley]

Steve, many thanks for that. 

My five note rolls were in a minor key (actually, F#, G, F#, E, D - then E;  and D, E, D, B, A - then B, from which you may well guess the tune concerned.)  It's been my belief that with a bit of thought, a good D/G/Acc box should be able to do this sort of thing with the LH chords as well, but I sometimes feel I'm on a lonely path, and I was wondering if you 'half-steppers' have got this cracked?  My philosophy has always been to try to overcome D/G limitations, but I admire you half-steppers for coming at the issue from a different direction, and I'm really curious to know how well it works.

[LDbosca]

Do people slide in 5-note rolls? LIke, use the same finger for the melody note and bottom grace note or something? I'm not sure it's a good idea, it's not something any of the "big" players do.

[Chris Brimley]

Well this is why I thought this pinky thread was relevant, because if you take the first roll of my two examples, there's no way I could possibly play 3rd finger, pinky, 3rd, 1st, 2nd on this at the right speed.  But I don't have any grounding in 'proper' playing, I've just made it up as I go along - how should it be done?

[Stiamh]

Do people slide in 5-note rolls? LIke, use the same finger for the melody note and bottom grace note or something? I'm not sure it's a good idea, it's not something any of the "big" players do.

If you're stretching down to a lower note you can start a roll on 1 and go like this: 1 (main note) 2 (higher grace) 1 (main note) 1 (lower grace) 2 (main note).

Mory says that's what Jackie Daly showed him. I remembered Jackie showing me the same trick as 1-3-2-1-2 but mory's memory is probably better than mine. You can do it both ways anyway.

1 = index
2 = middle
3 = ring

Chris, on a half-step box the more conventional way would be 2-3-2-1-2.

ps Luke - don't know about "big" players other than JD himself but he said it used to be a widespread practice among the older fellows. It's very useful for getting out of a squeeze! Well it would be for me - if I played 5-note rolls much, that is.

[Chris Brimley]

Steve, are you talking about 23212 being along a row, for the half-step box?  If so, I agree I would also do that with the quint if the notes were along the same row, but the point of my earlier 'angling' comment is that because they're across three rows the notes don't fall so easily under the fingers, I'd have to use the pinky, and sliding at an angle seems to work out significantly quicker and more even.  Mind you, maybe I should work more on my separate finger technique, if it has advantages.

[Stiamh]

Steve, are you talking about 23212 being along a row, for the half-step box? 

In most cases on an inside-out halfstep box (B/C, C#/D) everything would be on the inner row except for the lower grace, which would be on the outer row. Sometimes you might choose the upper grace on the outer row also. (If you didn't want to use the outer row for the lower grace, you probably wouldn't use a lower note on the inner row, which is what you seem to be suggesting, because it wouldn't sound right. You'd probably miss the lower grace out and play main note/higher grace/main note/main note.)

If you wanted to roll a note on the outer row, things would change a bit. I'm not sure what B/C players do to roll an F#, but on C#/D you can roll a C natural (which is on the outer row) gracing with the higher E and B just below, both on the inner row, and harmonically sound to boot.

Trying to do rolls across three rows sounds like too much effort to me. Are the results really satisfying? I ask seriously - I'd rather hear no roll than a roll (on any instrument, but particularly the box) that doesn't quite make it - meaning doesn't help the tune rhythmically, or jars harmonically.

[Chris Brimley]

Thanks for the advice, on the halfstep fingering, Steve, I think I can understand some of the benefits of the layout from what you say.

The tune concerned is Take Five, and for me Paul Desmond's beautifully executed fast rolls are such an important part of the music that if I can't do them, I think I'd go so far as to say there wouldn't be any point in me attempting to play the tune.  I hope to post it some day, when I can do these bits more consistently, and found out a way of playing some other tricky bits, but there's a way to go on the practising just yet!

[Johnf]

I "think" I understand the above discussion. It's going to be great when I KNOW it.   

I know I have seen some three row players do some remarkable playing using all three rows. My friend Joel Guzman, here in Austin Texas, is one great example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwFr--TG_KY   and   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEcdfGMTGhY

[Stiamh]

The tune concerned is Take Five, and for me Paul Desmond's beautifully executed fast rolls are such an important part of the music that if I can't do them, I think I'd go so far as to say there wouldn't be any point in me attempting to play the tune.

Paul Desmond, oh yes, what a lovely player. I once had a record with him playing Take Five on it, no idea where that went. But are the twiddly bits he's doing really the same thing as a roll in Irish music? Unless they are, and I find that difficult to imagine (I think I would have noticed when I had the disc), then we are talking about different things and whatever I have said above is probably totally irrelevant. 

[Chris Brimley]

Equally, I don't know whether a roll is the right word for this, given that it's being played with a Bm chord (Bbm in the original I think), but the concept seems to me to be pretty much the same, so I used the word.