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Author Topic: learning irish ornamentation  (Read 1801 times)

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ayreforcepyper

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learning irish ornamentation
« on: January 23, 2013, 05:26:54 AM »

Hi,

I have been having a hard time finding a resource for irish ornamentation on the one row.  I have found a few youtube videos, and have been listening a lot to Johnny Connolly and John Gannon, but I can't seem to figure out much of the ornamentation for what I am hearing. i.e.,rolls, cuts, etc...
I see that Gilles Poutoux has written a book, but I do not speak or read french, and I don't think google translate is up to the task.
Does anyone know an single row teachers in NY, or who teach by facetime or skype? 

cheers.
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Gromit

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 08:40:46 AM »

Here's some info may be helpful - seems to me these ornamentations could be used on a one row - but I could be wrong


http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8150.msg101585.html#msg101585

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8507.msg105787.html#msg105787
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Stiamh

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 11:25:21 AM »

Gilles Poutoux's book comes with a CD in which he demonstrates all his ornaments (ze roll, ze keuht, le cut "lancé", le pololop, etc.), fairly slowly and with many repetitions, most of them on one row although he's using a D/C#. Not to mention the "correct" way of playing every tune type (ze ril, ze sleep jig, etc.) together with four (commonly heard, apparently) "incorrect" ways of playing each one. I'm not quite sure what the point of all the incorrect versions is, other than to give learners a complex maybe, but they do demonstrate that he can control every aspect of his playing to an astonishing degree.

In a fit of mad enthusiasm I contacted the publisher a few years ago and offered to translate the book for them but despite initial interest nothing came of the project.

But I reckon you could do a lot worse than slowing down recordings of good players. I thought the ornamentation used by Ray Dempsey, who is a member here, on the Youtube audio clip linked to in the "Joy of One Row" thread was particularly tasty, and very clearly articulated.   
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deltasalmon

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »

I'm looking for the same thing in about the same area... I'm in NJ but also interested in one-row melodeon technique and ornamentations. I've seen Gilles Poutoux's youtube videos but was unaware he had a book. I don't speak French but maybe I'll look into it and see if I can find a francophone to help me out with it.
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Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

Stiamh

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 01:48:18 PM »

When you are trying to figure out what notes are involved in ornamentation remember these three essentials - difficult to grasp I will admit:

1. the next note could be a higher note
2. the next note could be a lower note
3. the next note could the same as the last one :)

No 3. is particularly important in box-playing ornaments. For example to do a "fake roll" on the note D on a one row, you could play: D, {F# cut} D, D  - all in the space of a dotted crotchet (dotted quarter note). You might play the three Ds evenly, or you might hold on to the first for a "swung" effect.

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deltasalmon

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 01:56:56 PM »

When I try to play roll on say E (one-row in C) then I would do: E, {G cut} E, {C cut*} E - When I do that it sounds much different than how I would roll on my BC. Maybe I just need to work on it more or maybe I just need to deal with the difference. I'll try doing the roll with only one cut and compare it though.


*cutting to a lower note may not be called a "cut"? I think flute players call it a "tap" but on the accordion it all seems the same to me.
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Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

Stiamh

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 02:16:17 PM »

Yes, deal with the difference, and try it without that lower grace. You may just find you prefer the sound of that on your B/C too...
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FlowingTide

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 10:52:43 AM »

I'm no good with rolls on box yet but I try do do what I do on flute. Really practice them, don't just add a little twiddle and most important: Get the internal rhythm right.
Maybe my approach will be helpfull on box as well - so here it goes:
A basic roll sounds like "DahBlahBlah" the "ah"s being the note that is rolled. The three "ah"s have the same length. "D" is the first attack and the "bl"s are the little notes that separate them. So short in duration that they are more of a plop sound than an actual note. To me - on flute - I choose the Bl notes not based on their note value but on the ease I can execute the roll crisply.
This basic, straight roll can be changed to a longer Daaahhh for a more swingier tune. For a phrase like dAAA I like to put an emphasis on the offbeat. So the second A gets more volume, is slightly longer or gets a different kind of roll: It gets its own attack plus it is cut in half by a grace. This is more like a pipers cran.
On box it is harder for me to keep the cuts and taps crisp - but the advantage is that they can be replaced by a fresh attack (just playing the note again) once or twice - which is harder to do nicely on flute. So that opens up all sorts of possibilities. The three basic notes can be separated by graces or fresh attacks and one or two can be played as a triple-note / triplet for added fun. Some of those possibilities might sound nicer on B/C and others on the one row D.... some give the opportunity to change fingers.
Listening to CDs I like "just long notes" on the beat instead of rolls very much. Box doesn't need as much chirpy, twittery twiddly bits as - say - a whistle. A little cut here and there adds enough interest. Nevertheless I want to be able to do more so that one day I can choose by sound instead of ability....
Playing with others I think it important not to go different directions rhythmically with what we do to the long notes. At least it's an added bonus if we head  the same way (or complement each other) 
Irina
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Gromit

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Re: learning irish ornamentation
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 12:46:49 PM »

Rolls - difficult to understand without hearing them so here are some clips showing whats going on with both flute and fiddle - there may be others out there but these sound pretty much ok to my ears, or you could sign up for the free sample tutorials at the OAIM site - The flute one by Majella Bartley (who is a nice player) is pretty good.

http://www.oaim.ie/free-lessons/flute


flute rolls

http://www.ehow.com/video_2374828_play-rolls-irish-flute-playing.html

fiddle rolls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjESgPOag0k
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