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Author Topic: Row crossing is not a superior skill  (Read 29779 times)

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Frank Lee

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #100 on: March 19, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »

I agree Ollie,  but what's 'silly' is the tendency of some folks to pontificate about what's 'right' and 'wrong' about how to play.  Whilst I derive wry amusement from sitting on the touch line watching  arguments which run along the lines of,
 'I think such-and-such'. 
'You b*st*rd.  How dare you think that'. 
.... They're a sad comment on the human condition!
The 'for's and 'against's are all interesting.  Personal taste is as much at play here as it is in fine art, clothing fashion, house decoration and many other aspects of life. 
As for the original argument, of course playing up and down the rows is a restricted mode of playing.  The melodeon is a restricted instrument.  All instruments are restricted one way or another, but it's what can be achieved within the restrictions that's endlessly amazing.  I've been 'boxing' for nearly 40 years now and the more I learn on my restricted instrument, the more I learn there is to learn, but I'd like to do slurring, I'd like to play some percussion on it,  and even if I went electronic, the number of fingers I have is restricted to ten. 
My approach to playing is from the music, not from the instrument.  If I hear a piece of music I like, and can 'hear' it played on a melodeon, whether or not it actually was, I'll give it a go.  If it sounds like it needs playing 'up-and-down' I'll try that.  If it has a legato passage, I'll try crossing rows. And whatever I try to play,  I use the left hand as my foundation for all right hand work (unless I'm using my one-row, which is a different ball game altogether for me).  That's me.  I'm allowed to say that, aren't I? 
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YorkieKen

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2013, 10:06:06 AM »

Well said Frank...please keep speaking your mind!  ;D
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Theo

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2013, 11:06:29 AM »

  I'm allowed to say that, aren't I?

Most definitely,  but having watched you play I'm not convinced about the wild claim that you only have ten fingers.   I'm sure I've heard some extra ones, but I can't see how you do it. ;)
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Etienne

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #103 on: March 19, 2013, 12:05:04 PM »


After a look at Caruhel website it seems like this book is no longer available, an alternative may be those published by "Trad magazine" that you can find easily from french shops like http://www.sonerien.com/ (i choose this one because i know their website is available in english language, i have no relation with them)
But the best (and cheapest) thing i can suggest is to take a look at sites with free tabs for melodeon like www.diato.org from Bernard Loffet or http://diato-amateurs.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm from Anicet Le Marre (that have some advice for beginners but available in french only). Ask if you want more links, there's a lot...

Thank you.  Any other advice and links will be appreciated.  I'll be playing a G/C and mainly Breton and French tunes.

ken
[/quote]
I open a topic for this http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,11900.0.html
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pikey

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #104 on: March 19, 2013, 01:02:23 PM »

I agree Ollie,  but what's 'silly' is the tendency of some folks to pontificate about what's 'right' and 'wrong' about how to play.  Whilst I derive wry amusement from sitting on the touch line watching  arguments which run along the lines of,
 'I think such-and-such'. 
'You b*st*rd.  How dare you think that'. 
.... They're a sad comment on the human condition!
The 'for's and 'against's are all interesting.  Personal taste is as much at play here as it is in fine art, clothing fashion, house decoration and many other aspects of life. 
As for the original argument, of course playing up and down the rows is a restricted mode of playing.  The melodeon is a restricted instrument.  All instruments are restricted one way or another, but it's what can be achieved within the restrictions that's endlessly amazing.  I've been 'boxing' for nearly 40 years now and the more I learn on my restricted instrument, the more I learn there is to learn, but I'd like to do slurring, I'd like to play some percussion on it,  and even if I went electronic, the number of fingers I have is restricted to ten. 
My approach to playing is from the music, not from the instrument.  If I hear a piece of music I like, and can 'hear' it played on a melodeon, whether or not it actually was, I'll give it a go.  If it sounds like it needs playing 'up-and-down' I'll try that.  If it has a legato passage, I'll try crossing rows. And whatever I try to play,  I use the left hand as my foundation for all right hand work (unless I'm using my one-row, which is a different ball game altogether for me).  That's me.  I'm allowed to say that, aren't I?

Spot on Frank.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2013, 02:40:25 PM »

I think this has been a really interesting and thought provoking thread - one of the best on here for a long time, and not at all silly*. It's a discussion about one of the fundamental techniques of playing the melodeon. Many things have been discussed that often go undiscussed, and I think this thread (once you sort the wheat from the chaff) is incredibly valuable to beginners.
I agree Ollie,  but what's 'silly' is the tendency of some folks to pontificate about what's 'right' and 'wrong' about how to play ... My approach to playing is from the music, not from the instrument.  If I hear a piece of music I like, and can 'hear' it played on a melodeon, whether or not it actually was, I'll give it a go.  If it sounds like it needs playing 'up-and-down' I'll try that.  If it has a legato passage, I'll try crossing rows. And whatever I try to play,  I use the left hand as my foundation for all right hand work (unless I'm using my one-row, which is a different ball game altogether for me).  That's me.  I'm allowed to say that, aren't I?

I've edited out Frank's comment on more pugilistic aspects of this thread (observant may have noted a subject change too). Once the goats are sorted out, and a few other obvious Trolls tucked back under the the bridge ;) the rest of this flock seem in startlingly close agreement. Thanks too to Ollie for pointing out the thread's intrinsic teaching value. I wondered last week about parallels with  Swift's famous satire on 18th century politics;  Lilliput (Britain) and Blefuscu (France) battling for 6 years about which end to open a boiled egg :Ph

Health & Safety notice: Any followings on wrt shiny and 'dusty' ends of our instrument: Please risk assessments should goto a moderator in triplicate at least a weeks before posting  ::) Anything about little people: I believe there's still some space remaining in Sunday's St Patrick thread.  >:E
   
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911377brian

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #106 on: March 19, 2013, 08:29:36 PM »

Phew! Jolly glad I play one row; it's rough out there..... :o
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Andy

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2013, 10:18:30 PM »

Phew! Jolly glad I play one row; it's rough out there..... :o

If you think this is rough, check out the tenor banjo - guitar fingering v mandolin fingering debate. Box players are not the only folk that indulge in this sort of fun.
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911377brian

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2013, 03:05:50 PM »

Well Andy,I've restrung my tenor to ukulele tuning, GCEA to avoid learning a new/different system. I hope I have'nt got myself into a whole lot of new trouble....  :'(
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2013, 01:46:16 PM »

Just noticed the formation of a "Lilliput Owners Club" in the small D/G thread, perhaps this might continue there  ;)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2013, 12:02:00 PM »

Not trying to reopen any debate here as there is no wrong way! … but

… I'm now on my 4th set for one box I'm starting to see bellows as a disposable item like guitar strings!)

Can't say I've ever replaced bellows ::) So you takes yer choice … you pays yer money ;) in this case?
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squeezy

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »

 I can't deny that my playing style contributes to my bellows having a distinctly shorter life-span.

But I wouldn't have it any other way ;D
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pikey

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2013, 08:14:00 PM »

Maybe its the condensation from those lovely folk club rooms that does it?  ;)
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KLR

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2014, 09:36:42 PM »

BUMP

Phew! Jolly glad I play one row; it's rough out there..... :o

If you think this is rough, check out the tenor banjo - guitar fingering v mandolin fingering debate. Box players are not the only folk that indulge in this sort of fun.

I read that while practicing my tenor guitar... >:E  This is over at manocafe, I assume?  They have a whole tenor guitar forum there, I notice.  A hotter flame war than melnet's over whether you should shift your hand slightly or not when need be, this is why we have the internet, yes yes.   ::)

I'm attempting to play everything on-the-row on my ADG these days.  Row crossing seems like a bit of a bad habit, too much of a good thing, the road to perdition.  That sort of thing.  You can get carried away with the possibility of not having to move the bellows around in certain places.  But that does help a lot, especially in the middle of the scale, where there's only the pull c on the G row to use.  Sometimes it's invaluable for me to use the pinky (little finger) there, advice to the contrary notwithstanding. defd cAFA in a reel, Trim the Velvet, for instance.  Having the pinky play the pull d on the A row has your hand ready for the cAFA part, which is all played on the pull on the G row.  Of course I could just learn to play push d followed by pull c followed by push A, like the maestros over in 2 row land.   ;)  It is nice to have these options around, though. 
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george garside

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2014, 09:56:23 PM »

playing on the row is largely intuitive  as the scale is the scale irrespective of key or number of rows

 On the other hand playing across the rows on any 3 row be it ADG GCF or the dreaded BCC#  requires a very thorough knowledge of the whole (3 rowsworth of) keyboard  i.e. where and in which direction every possible note is so that choices , where they exist, can be made on the hoof.  This is preferable to thinking in terms of fingering ''patterns''

george 

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rees

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2014, 12:12:49 AM »

That's about right George. I don't use fingering patterns as such on a three row but I do rely heavily on right hand chords and where those chords lie in either direction. Having that info readily to hand can create some extra harmonies with the left hand.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:00 AM »

Thought this thead … long dead. But the guitar comparison is interesting. Used to play one, always did the tune up and down a single string, so it's an eye opener that there might be another way ???

No, I am not being serious!
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pikey

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2014, 09:18:47 AM »

Guitar is a good example, and I'd violin/cello/viola.

Teaching starts with using open notes, then moves onto playing up and down the strings in first position.

Once the student has demonstrated competency in that,  teaching moved to up and down the strings further up the fingerboard (including for guitar, chords higher up ).

Only when that competency has been demonstrated do they move onto playing scales and tunes across the strings.

Hence as has been said much earlier in this thread, on a melodeon first get to grips with playing up and down the rows, in several octaves. But then do move on to mastering using alternative cross row fingering.

That gives you different ways to play the same tune.

Btw I am still finding new alternative fingerings. I watched Anahatas YouTube vid of Sir Sydney Smiths March yesterday, and was amazed to see him using the D row a lot for the complicated bit in the B part, where I'd been struggling using the G row for years. So now I'm going to work out what alternative cross row fingering he is using !
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2014, 12:43:35 PM »

The cellist here in Chichillienne puts it on his knee and plays 4 note chords, albeit one or two strings usually "open"

[edit] him after lunch …
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:05:45 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Anahata

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2014, 01:22:04 PM »

Btw I am still finding new alternative fingerings. I watched Anahatas YouTube vid of Sir Sydney Smiths March yesterday, and was amazed to see him using the D row a lot for the complicated bit in the B part, where I'd been struggling using the G row for years.

I've been struggling to remember why I do that. I think  you're talking about  the bit that goes

"G"BdBd "D"AdAd | "Em"GdGd "D"FdFd | "C"EdEd "D"FdFd | "Em"GdGd "D"AdAd | "C"EdEd "D"FdFd | "Em"GdGd "D"AdAB |

The bass line is trying* to follow the moving part of the tune a third below, so I need the D row G on pull to get the E bass/Eminor. That tips the balance in favour of the D row for the whole surrounding context.

*If I had an F bass note I'd probably use that too, where "D" is indicated above.
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