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Author Topic: Row crossing is not a superior skill  (Read 29778 times)

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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2013, 11:06:23 AM »

In view of some minor squabbles here, can I then assume we're not talking 'rows' as in the lines of treble buttons but 'rows' as in arguments?


Just getting me coat!

Yep, crossed rows.
Just ask Karen, my wife she'll put you all straight!
However, just push the bloody buttons, certainly some sort of sound will emerge
 And surely will be better than no buttons at all  crossed or not.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2013, 11:31:51 AM »

I do however feel that young'ns should never be taught this way early on, as they'll then need to "unlearn" what is frankly a very restricted mode of play.
If you think that kids should never be taught up and down the rows because it is a "very restricted mode of play" then you are saying that it is inferior, right?  And I can only really think of one other approach to playing which would be row-crossing and by inference superior?  Am I wrong?

Fair comment. This "flare" seems to have stemmed from the word "never".  You aren't wrong and I'll expunge it as inappropriate, unfortunate as it turns out  ::)

As pointed out overleaf, I got to that post from the context of treating the melodeon as a harmonica.  We might even agree that such is .. "restricted"?  Either way, I hope I might be forgiven my overstatement?
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Owen Woods

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2013, 12:41:15 PM »

I taught a box player for a bit last year. He was getting along very well with up and down the rows, so I was encouraging him to explore row crossing early, specifically so that he would be able to (for example), use a G chord when playing in D in the appropriate places. I think that both techniques are extremely important and every box player should try to learn both of them. Personally I feel that I discovered cross rowing slightly early and it has been challenging to compensate.
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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 12:46:52 PM »

I play up n down rows only crossing when i have no choice. I'm not fussed about correct chords. And everytime i've tried crossrowing i get a glazed expression and dribble. Not a pleasant sight. So something i don't often do.

pikey

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 01:23:53 PM »

I get cross rowing.

I can't manage the oars very well   ;)

I'll get me coat and go and try some emasculated rhythmless playing..........

 >:E
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2013, 01:28:08 PM »

Personally, I tend to play on-the-row, crossing when a note is available to me only on the other row, or when it makes what would otherwise be an awkward fingering pattern easier, or to avoid frantic bellows-waggling (an instance that occurs to me off the top of my head is in the B music of "Because He Was A Bonny Lad" in G, where the G pedal note is picked on the pull from the D row when it's more convenient to do so), or sometimes to get a more satisfying left-hand harmony. But I don't set out to play across the rows; I simply cross rows on occasion as a specific tool in a specific set of circumstances.

Graham
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george garside

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2013, 01:29:38 PM »

I taught a box player for a bit last year. He was getting along very well with up and down the rows, so I was encouraging him to explore row crossing early, specifically so that he would be able to (for example), use a G chord when playing in D in the appropriate places. I think that both techniques are extremely important and every box player should try to learn both of them. Personally I feel that I discovered cross rowing slightly early and it has been challenging to compensate.
 

I don't realy think of using the inside row G when playing in D to get a decent chord as row crossing in all its glory!  I do it particulary when playing airs or waltzes but often stay on the D row when playing the same tune as a jig cos the G chord is hardly going to be around long enough for anybody to appreciate it anyway

george
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Jack Humphreys

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 01:31:18 PM »

Well I'm not very good at in-out playing... so it works better for me to keep on cross-rowing as much as possible.  I've always felt jealous of players like Andy C,  Julian S, Ollie K, Owen W, Mel B, and many other English players who play really sensitively AND bring some of the  in-out rhythm and articulation into all sorts of tunes. I've put it down to their essential apprenticeships in the Morris.   I can play smooth belgian mazurkas, but I can't play  reliably with that English characteristic skill.   I also remember going to a Bal de Bath workshop with a French melodeonist who forbade us to cross row,  saying the WHOLE CHARM of the instrument came from its push-pull. 

I mean, if you're going to play almost everything without push-pull, with all those long pulls and quick breathing-pushes..... surely it would make more sense to play a more logical CBA, or PA . Why play a push-pull instrument and not push-pull?  (That question is constantly there for me!)

BUT...   I went to see Andy C in Bristol recently. and I was amazed to find that his wonderful rhythm and separation of notes (which I believed had come from push-pull)  was very often achieved WITHOUT changing belows direction, i.e. was cross rowing.  But with eyes closed, you wouldn't have known.   Still, whether or not he actually push-pulls, my belief (with Squezy) is that his subtlely and precision of bellows control derives from that early push-pull proficiency.

AND...  Ideally I suggest -- have both skills and apply then with discrimination for best musical effect, depending on how you want interpret the particular tune.



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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 01:41:31 PM »

AND...  Ideally I suggest -- have both skills and apply then with discrimination for best musical effect, depending on how you want interpret the particular tune.

I was in the middle of composing a long reply and it vanished (too much cross-rowing on my PC keyboard?), but the above is a good summary of much of what I wanted to say.
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Peter Savage

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 01:50:43 PM »

I purposefully played cross-rowed from the outset thinking it was the way go, i.e. changing the bellow direction as infrequently as possible.  However, I have now realised that doing this risks losing much of the natural bounce that you get from the basic push-pull technique.  I am currently going back and "re-learning" some tunes to cut down on the cross-row and I am pleased with how they are coming out. Maybe I need a get a 1-row to sort me out!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:53:40 PM by ScannAr »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2013, 02:03:36 PM »

Quote from: Jackhumphreys link=topic=11856.msg146655#msg146655
.. best musical effect, depending on how you want interpret the particular tune.

Hope that's what I've said, if 'in my own way'! No one seems interested in the mouth organ aspect of my post any more ??? So to move this on in Jack's entirely sensible terms. There is a watershed harmonically between the two styles.

Against the push G or D, or pull Em chords "on row" fingering is "in" with respect to the chord notes, whereas "other row" sounds notes not contained in the chord (generally). So there is more musical tension in the latter.

C and B chords are cross row on the right end of a D/G so the distinction is less clear. Before anyone gets upset about this concept, I'll quickly add that a skilled musician will combine the two to take his melodic line into tension, and back into resolution ::)

... "Amen"
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FlatNote

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 02:14:58 PM »

It is hard to see how anyone could reasonably deny that, all other things being equal, the player who can make use of both rows on a two row instrument is more skilled than the player who can make use of only one row or that the player who limits themselves to learning only about one row of a two row instrument is limiting their knowledge of the instrument.  Furthermore, while whatever can be done using the resources of one row alone can also be done using the combined resources of two rows, there are many things that just can't be done using only one row, though exactly what they are will depend on which two rows one has available.

Of course these obvious facts do not logically entail that English folk music sounds better when played on two rows rather than one, nor do they imply anything about whether it is better to start learning using one row or two.  To reach any conclusions on those matters one has bring in ancillary assumptions about what constitutes good music and what the goals of playing the melodeon are.  Such assumptions are unlikely to be widely agreed on and, more often than not, will involve those matters of taste which, as the Romans used to say, need not be disputed.
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Johnf

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2013, 02:31:28 PM »

Can't  understand why those who love row crossing for everything  don't do the job properly and get a bcc#!!

george >:E ;D

OOOO.. I am reminded of the arguments over using two, three or four fingers...
One of the beautiful things about melodeons with all their different configurations (number of rows, voices, tunings, etc) is the incredible variety of music they can create. I have played one-rows, two and three row fifth tuned, two-row irish (BC), and even an Organetto and each instrument seems to guide you into different styles. The configuration of the instrument can really change your music requiring different fingerings and bellows technique. My friend Joel Guzman who is a vurtuoso on the three row has expressed to me his amazement at the music a cajun player can pull from a single row. There is no ONE WAY (thank the heavens for that)
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IanD

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2013, 02:40:53 PM »

It is hard to see how anyone could reasonably deny that, all other things being equal, the player who can make use of both rows on a two row instrument is more skilled than the player who can make use of only one row or that the player who limits themselves to learning only about one row of a two row instrument is limiting their knowledge of the instrument.  Furthermore, while whatever can be done using the resources of one row alone can also be done using the combined resources of two rows, there are many things that just can't be done using only one row, though exactly what they are will depend on which two rows one has available.

Of course these obvious facts do not logically entail that English folk music sounds better when played on two rows rather than one, nor do they imply anything about whether it is better to start learning using one row or two.  To reach any conclusions on those matters one has bring in ancillary assumptions about what constitutes good music and what the goals of playing the melodeon are.  Such assumptions are unlikely to be widely agreed on and, more often than not, will involve those matters of taste which, as the Romans used to say, need not be disputed.
There is a however a basic difference between what I'd call "English"-style playing (player's preference/default style is bouncy push-pull up and down the rows, cross-rowing optional or when this isn't possible) and "Continental"-style playing (player's preference/default style is smoother cross-row playing, up-and-down optional or when this isn't possible). I do mainly the first, and I'd bet that Chris does mainly the second (though I haven't heard him play). Both can be fantastic depending on what you want to do, or terrible if played mushily.

If your primary purpose is playing English-style or Morris dance tunes or for ceilidh dances then the English style generally has more bounce and lift to it, if your primary purpose is playing for listening/accompaniment or French tunes the second style generally has more smoothness and lyrical flow to it. Of course there are players who manage to play up and down the rows without much lift or bounce, and there are players who manage to play across the rows with it, but the general trend is pretty clear -- all the best English-style box players for dancing that I know (meaning those who are best to dance to, not necessarily best to listen to) play primarily up-and-down on a 2-row.

And they can get a life and lift and punch into the music that even the best cross-row players struggle to match -- even when they're the same person ;-)

(e.g. John K. playing up-and-down for the Bedlams or Martha Rhodens to dance to, John K. playing complex cross-rowing tunes for listening to -- love both to bits, but I know which I'd rather dance to)
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Clive Williams

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2013, 03:52:54 PM »


BUT...   I went to see Andy C in Bristol recently. and I was amazed to find that his wonderful rhythm and separation of notes (which I believed had come from push-pull)  was very often achieved WITHOUT changing belows direction, i.e. was cross rowing.  But with eyes closed, you wouldn't have known. 


Andy's a bit of a special case. When playing in one direction there's a very subtle pulse in the bellows movement, achieved I believe with an almost subconscious bellows wag - you have to look hard to spot it. It's the sort of technique that differentiates good piano accordion and CBA players from standard ones... but he's fairly unusual in applying it to melodeon. Couple that with his one row skills, and you have a very flexible technique that can do just about anything.

Neat.

EastAnglianTed

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2013, 05:01:48 PM »

Very interesting thread!
Maybe I've got it wrong but does this video illustrate the point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPiYidyFezU
The smooth first tune (with a sprinkling of cross-row), the bouncy second tune? Same tune, different techniques?
I learnt first tunes like Shepard's Hey on one row of a D/G, then slowly started experimenting building up to cross rowing. My Grandad taught me like that, stick with one row, get the rythum (close your eyes and imagine old blokes dancing in the pub) then adjust according to what you want to do. I suppose as a kid I could never imagine the old blokes dancing with a smooth cross-row version of Shepard's Hey, although now I can play either/or. I have no idea how proffessional Melodeon tutors teach, I just farted about on my box and played how I wanted to.
With 'Oh Joe the Boat is going over', I just love to stick it one row and bounce the hell out of it. Could cross-row but I spose it's down to personal preference  ;D
But thank goodness we all have individual styles  (:)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2013, 05:21:00 PM »

Sorry to disappoint Ted. Could be wrong, as the video doesn't show left end but my take (for the D/G) was that you played on D row against D and A chords, switching to G row when the course of the tune wanted a G chord. If so, I'd call that "on the row" technique, albeit well beyond a strict D-row only  against "D/A 2-chord-trick".   

Continental cross-rowing is to lay out a train of chords for the tune and then find the tune against these, using eg the scale that runs E,F#,G,A,B,C#, zig-zagging between rows. As described above .. it comes much more legato, lacking the "English bounce" (that comes over nicely in your own play)  :D

I'm reminded of playing a waltz with Steve H (Sageherb) once, up in Ripponden. Afterwards he commented, "Wierd Chris! Your bellows were nearly always going the opposite direction from mine"! But then I might have said exactly the same ;)
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pikey

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2013, 05:40:46 PM »

IMHO Chris is being unfairly attacked here.

Squeezy may disagree with Chris's original sentence, but there was no need to go off on one. And it does read like an attack , not a balanced different view.

Similarly for some (but thankfully not all) of the subsequent posts.

We're all entitled to our own points of view , and some on this forum need to recognise that and apply some basic courtesy. I speak from experience. As some of you know I have gone too far before on here about a particular topic, but thankfully Ollie politely pulled me up, and I realised I had been a right prat, and I hope mended my ways.

So can we please all think before we type (me included), and keep this a place where we want to contribute?

IMHO I generally agree with what Chris was trying to get across, which the way I read it isn't about using the odd cross row button, it's about encouraging people to learn the basics of a diatonic instrument, and exploring different ways of playing it.  Surely that's sensible advice?

Pikey
aged 16 3/4  ;)



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Graham Spencer

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2013, 06:01:10 PM »

Pikey
aged 16 3/4  ;)

16/34?  That's 0.47.......talk about an infant prodigy!! ;D
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Row crossing is not a superior skill
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »

I get cross rowing.

I can't manage the oars very well   ;)

I'll get me coat and go and try some emasculated rhythmless playing..........

Try some Limerick's Pikey, at least they'll be better than George's






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