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Author Topic: Action Height/Stiffness  (Read 5134 times)

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LDbosca

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Action Height/Stiffness
« on: February 04, 2013, 08:15:33 PM »

Hi All,

I've been thinking about action height/stiffness lately; my B/C Gaillard has a relatively high/stiff (sprung) action, which took some time to get used to. I recently acquired a 1950s Paolo Soprani with a lower/lighter action and I find it easier to do trills and "twiddley" ornamentation. It's easier to do five-note rolls with an even rhythm as the action of the Gaillard can make me fall into the habbit of lifting the fingers too much to get power. I had previously thought that the higher action of the Gaillard made for clearer cuts/grace notes but now I'm thinking of taking it down a bit. I know someone who'll do it for me. I'm just a bit worried I won't like it once I've it done or that it'll make somethings harder.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on higher/stiffer vs lower/lighter are with action.

Luke.

mory

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 04:23:43 PM »

Hi Luke,
I've personally never come across anyone asking to have their action raised but plenty for the reverse, not to say it wouldn't be a preference for some I'm sure. Whats the button height/travel on you Gaillard, are both rows the same or is there any compensating factor? I've seen some novel ways of looking at spring tension but a spring gauge is the most straight forward if you can find one. One way of checking the sound production is not compromised, is to temporarily raise the cushion under the buttons limiting travel depth to what you consider you may want, that way you can hear if the sound production gets altered before you go all in. Certainly altering the amount of lift of the pallets can affect the feel and playability of a box considerably in my experience usually in the weight of bellows pressure required, but also in volume and response. AtB mory
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 05:53:36 PM »

I've personally never come across anyone asking to have their action raised

I like big buttons.

I have recently been using accordeons with lower action - they drive me nuts. I've raised the action on one. I've left the other two as they they are. Guess which one I play most.   ???
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LDbosca

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 12:33:47 AM »

Hi Luke,
I've personally never come across anyone asking to have their action raised but plenty for the reverse, not to say it wouldn't be a preference for some I'm sure. Whats the button height/travel on you Gaillard, are both rows the same or is there any compensating factor? I've seen some novel ways of looking at spring tension but a spring gauge is the most straight forward if you can find one. One way of checking the sound production is not compromised, is to temporarily raise the cushion under the buttons limiting travel depth to what you consider you may want, that way you can hear if the sound production gets altered before you go all in. Certainly altering the amount of lift of the pallets can affect the feel and playability of a box considerably in my experience usually in the weight of bellows pressure required, but also in volume and response. AtB mory

I haven't measured the button height it but it's a little higher than usual and the same across the rows.

The guy who'd be doing the job on it (hypothetically, I haven't asked him yet but he offered before) has the action on his Gaillard extremely low, like crazy low, and he reckons the sound is ok. Apparently Bertrand believes in lots of clearance for the pads but it'd probably be ok with less. He's lowered Gaillards for a few people who are apparently all happy.

I suppose my worry is that I'd lose crispness by lightening the action - it does keep triplets (Derrane style) nice and clean. However, while I had thought that it was good for the fingers because it built strength, I'm starting to think it's actually causing a reduction in nimbless as it makes me rely more on power rather than developing a light touch. My fear is that if I change it that my theories will be proven wrong!

It seems that the likes of Danny O'Mahony and Colm Gannon play with a low light action and it seems important to the type of delicate intricate ornamentation they do.

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 11:03:41 PM »

Thought this was going to be about something totally different when i read the title. :-[
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LDbosca

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 01:02:32 AM »

Thought this was going to be about something totally different when i read the title. :-[

??


Incidentally, not that this is a widely-followed topic, I got the action done on the Gaillard. It was 5mm and now it's something like 2.5mm and a bit lighter. Gotta get used to it and relearn/adjust a lot of technique but it's definitely an improvement.

Andy Simpson

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 01:54:41 AM »

5mm??? :o , that's seriously high. Most quality boxes are c.3mm in my experience.

From my experience of restoring Hohners, the difference in sound after the action has been lowered and limited and where it was before, even if deliberately pushed down as far as it will go, is minimal but the improvement in feel and playability is enormous. From that I'm inclined to think that a large amount of clearance for the pallets isn't hugely important and at the very least there's a very narrow window encompassing the pallets being closed, having inadequate clearance, having sufficient clearance and making no difference how far open they are.
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LDbosca

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 08:19:38 AM »

5mm??? :o , that's seriously high. Most quality boxes are c.3mm in my experience.

From my experience of restoring Hohners, the difference in sound after the action has been lowered and limited and where it was before, even if deliberately pushed down as far as it will go, is minimal but the improvement in feel and playability is enormous. From that I'm inclined to think that a large amount of clearance for the pallets isn't hugely important and at the very least there's a very narrow window encompassing the pallets being closed, having inadequate clearance, having sufficient clearance and making no difference how far open they are.

It is high, isn't it? For me personally it created all sorts of bad technique habits like lifting my fingers too high and not keeping my index finger down near the keyboard as much as possible. Also, the stiffness of the springs made me use more power and less nimbleness, if that makes sense. It's great having it changed but I'm bloody sick of revising how I do really standard things like rolls; I hope that in a month that'll be all over. In the mean time I'll have to put up with it.

I agree about the tone. The main thing about reduced clearance is the pitch bending it can cause when the sound is compressed against the pallet. This can occasionally be utilised to ones advantage though.

When I got the box Peter Browne told me it'd be worth dropping the action, I wish I'd done it sooner!

mory

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 10:15:43 AM »

Its quite possibly not just the button height itself making you revise your playing technique but the subtleties of sound production having been changed. Still glad your pleased, there is a note of caution in this though as just bending the lever mech can lead to problems in these heavy Aluminium levers with the clamped on brass bearing elbow, most adjustments like this used to be carried out using a pair of nipping pliers (certainly in accordions) with two opposing little bumps that would, depending where applied bend the metal one way or the other the problem with bending by hand is the bend can actually happen twisting sideways thus opening up the clamped brass bearing elbow. Also the button angles can end up rather odd with both sets sitting tilting towards the outside edge of the keyboard.  Don't agree with being no change in tone though, if only very minor, but I think we just automatically compensate with bellows pressure, which IS a change in the subtleties of how the box handles. Still all said and done I'm sure you'll be up to "speed" with Peter in no time  ;) have fun, AtB mory
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 10:20:43 AM by mory »
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Stiamh

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 11:46:54 AM »

I suppose I should have got this done on my 2-voice Gaillard - I considered it before deciding to sell it, but wasn't willing to gamble on the results. Not realizing that Irish Gaillard owners did it routinely! (Anyway there was a pressing financial reason for selling and given the souring of my initially very cordial relationship with BG on account of the tuning débâcle, it wasn't much of a wrench.)

Maybe BG should be told that Irish players like a lower action. And (in my view) a less voracious air button. But then, it would seem he's not terribly open to changing the way he does things.

mory

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 12:12:36 PM »

Hi Steve, I think he's always worked closely with Irish box players. There's an old clip somewhere of when he first brought them over with Brendon Begley (can't quite remember who the other player was) playing one. Then Joe Burke and Jackie Daly had the matching pair of 4 voices presented to them. I can't imagine that any of these guys would not be expressing their needs/views to him, or any of the many many others that have had them along the way, including the current batch going for the 21 two voice versions in keys BC C#D CC# (D.Munnely B.McCarthy D.Mullane ) why would you order a box and not express your preferances? its not like there off the shelf, certainly not for players of thier standing. Even Saltarelle will attempt to provide what you ask for within thier format. Mind you I'd still go for a Paddy Clancy over a Gaillard any day. All the Best mory
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LDbosca

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 12:43:04 PM »

Mory, Peter actually did it for me, he used a tool similar to Bertrand uses but he made it himself using a file and a table knife.

The change in technique is down to the button height; I began to change it after I got my Paolo and after having a good look at what a lot of the top players do and thnking about the sound I want to get. However, I never got it quite down because (for me) it wasn't possible to keep things low and tight on the BG keyboard and I was constantly switching between the two boxes which stopped me settling down properly.

The action on the old BG boxes is quite different to the current ones. I don't know if it's because of all the French players he sells to or because of his own ideas about tone that he went for the higher, stiffer action. I asked about a lower action when I went over at first and got the pallets/tone speech. I do think there's a minor change since I got the action adjusted but I'm happy.

I can't say I ever found the air button to be a problem, it suits me to have it move as much air as possible. Besides, I don't have to open it fully if I don't want to.

Stiamh

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 02:57:10 PM »

Mory, my impression is that he was willing to experiment and cater to people's wishes a few years ago, but my strong impression is now he has settled on a fairly small range of models, and offers certain options (e.g. numbers of basses), but that's all. Based on my own questions to him. Luke's comment about the reaction to his enquiry about lower action seems to bear that out.

My comments on the air button relate to the smaller 2-v box. It was so sensitive and "air-hungry"  that I found it difficult to control for the tiny sips of air I take constantly - a problem I've not had with any other make. 

KLR

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2013, 03:27:58 AM »

BUMP

A lovely musty old B/C/C# Trichord arrived yesterday; I notice it has action close to 3 mm instead of the 5 mm on my Coronas, which is ringing a bell after reading this read.  "Action Americano," eh?   ;)  So I'm thinking it's time to have the action on the ADG jacked down a couple notches.  Now, I also notice the C and C# pallets on the Trichord are "compound action" or "2nd class levers," to take two stabs at what the correct term is for this; they're not simple levers like on your typical melodeon: 



Instead the pallets are hinged at the top, and the buttons are attached to levers that lift the pallet levers in the middle, like on this Saltarelle:



Is there an industry standard term for this?  I hope it's as titter-inducing as "bisonoric," which always gets them laughing for some reason.  Sounds like some kind of animal you find in herds on the Great Plains...

Anyway, do all the quality makers use the compound type lever - is it superior for the action?  I did come across a picture of Lily pallets and those were simple levers, so perhaps not.  Could I lower and/or lighten the action on my IIIR without worrying about leaks?  That box is LMM and the Trichord is just MM so I wondered if more pressure from those low reeds was perhaps a factor.  Hope it's not.  I'm sold on that very low light action, as apparently every other player of Irish trad is, no surprise there.

Solving the puzzle of that Trichord is a lot of fun, too.  Just like the CBA griffs, makes no sense at all at first.   :o
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Stiamh

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 07:49:49 PM »

Instead the pallets are hinged at the top, and the buttons are attached to levers that lift the pallet levers in the middle.... Is there an industry standard term for this? 

I call it a "reverse lever" mechanism, must have picked that up somewhere like this forum or its predecessor. (The kind of term that means nothing unless you already know what it refers to, I agree.)

I think the idea of this mechanism is to get the inside row of pallets to open wider in an attempt to offset the difference in volume and tone between the rows (which results from the fact that (in a conventional mechanism) the shorter levers on the inside row cannot open the pallets as wide as those of the outer row). I've seen it in the classic "Irish" Paolos, in Saltarelles as per your photo, and in my Serenellini. How successful it is in balancing the tone and volume, I couldn't really say. But it looks cool!

Theo

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2013, 07:57:26 PM »


I call it a "reverse lever" mechanism, must have picked that up somewhere like this forum or its predecessor. (The kind of term that means nothing unless you already know what it refers to, I agree.)

I think the idea of this mechanism is to get the inside row of pallets to open wider in an attempt to offset the difference in volume and tone between the rows

Or a double lever??

It has another purpose which is to enable a row of pallets to be positioned directly under the keyboard, where it would be impossible for the usual geometry to operate.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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KLR

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2013, 08:47:49 PM »

It has another purpose which is to enable a row of pallets to be positioned directly under the keyboard, where it would be impossible for the usual geometry to operate.

Oh!  That does make sense, doesn't it.  Thanks for the replies. 

I just came across someone on reyesforum touting the notion that with more holes in the soundboard and more blocks of reeds you need stronger spring tension to make sure you have a good seal, for what that's worth.  I wish there were some way of measuring button strength, aside from "not fun."  "Heavy"?  "Painful"?  "Gaillard"?   ;)  You can get out the spring gauge too of course.  Need to call my box tech now and have that Corona overhauled this instant.  Perhaps Hohner set those up that way for durability long haul, or the music didn't call for rapid fingering anyway so wasn't an issue.
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Theo

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Re: Action Height/Stiffness
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2013, 09:03:32 PM »


I just came across someone on reyesforum touting the notion that with more holes in the soundboard and more blocks of reeds you need stronger spring tension to

Id agree that an individual pallet probably needs more force to hold it closed when there are more holes,  but for the total force on the board to be greater? No.
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