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Author Topic: Fifth chords?  (Read 1860 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Fifth chords?
« on: April 10, 2013, 11:18:22 AM »

These keep coming up under various guises, mainly with respect to the B push on a D/G (= E on a G/C), or European style left ends with no chord thirds (or a stop to remove same).  Posters here have tended to improvise vocabulary and we don't use what the wider music world uses. This post is offered as a bit of background to tidy, clarify and hopefully tighten communications.

The concept of "5" chord seems to come from the early amplified guitars in the 50's with Wiki mentioning "Howling Wolf" in particular. It consists of a simple 2-note "dyad" of  tonic and fifth. More recently guitarists have tended to call it a "power" chord, often doubling up notes into other octaves for extra beef. The "power" in this would seem to come from the perfect 2:3 harmonics ratio, and absence of any modulation that might come from adding notes elsewhere in your scale. Less common names are eg Bind (indeterminate) or B5no 3, the latter perhaps a bit anal wrt guitar but very appropriate to what we do to a melodeon left end?  Power/fifth chording has found a big place in heavy Rock.  Wiki cites Who and Kinks (+ some outfits I've never heard of)! Here's a classic example

There's a lot about fifth chording for Blues. I find this unexpected as the tonal progression in say a C7-D7-G7 lick comes from that tritone clash between the major 3rd and minor 7th within those chords.  In a sense 1+5 are the notes you can leave out!   But it perhaps shows just how flexible "Blues" is; it's not a major melodeon genre anyway.

On our D/G box, a B5 chord would have be just B+F#, with any D# taped or stopped out. As such it is completely ambiguous with respect to major/minor and has been a popular modification to the British melodeon.  Alternatives are to keep a D or D# in there, essentially committing to modal E minor music, or harmonic minor in the process. or one can cross finger a Bm7 as frequently pointed out)

You can also use 5 chording on the right end, eg where the room is playing in D minor and your F note is inconveniently wrong way. Again, stacking into second octave offers more "power", at the cost of a more raw sound.  Anyone else using "fifth" chording in their music  (other than in taping out middle note of their B/E major left end chord)?
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Stiamh

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 11:27:04 AM »

Anyone else using "fifth" chording in their music  (other than in taping out middle note of their B/E major left end chord)?

Yes, me. You can end many Irish tunes very satisfactorily by playing a two-note r/h chord of the tonic with the 4th below, which is of course an inverted fifth. Very strong finish.

JJRobson

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »

There's a lot about fifth chording for Blues. I find this unexpected as the tonal progression in say a C7-D7-G7 lick comes from that tritone clash between the major 3rd and minor 7th within those chords.  In a sense 1+5 are the notes you can leave out!   But it perhaps shows just how flexible "Blues" is; it's not a major melodeon genre anyway.

I've always found leaving out the 1+5 to be more of a jazz thing than in my blues playing. Always best to let the bassist handle those! Then again... I'm not exactly an expert at either genre so I'm sure a decent bluesman can prove me wrong!
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deltasalmon

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 12:33:34 PM »

Anyone else using "fifth" chording in their music  (other than in taping out middle note of their B/E major left end chord)?

Yes, me. You can end many Irish tunes very satisfactorily by playing a two-note r/h chord of the tonic with the 4th below, which is of course an inverted fifth. Very strong finish.

I often end with an octave, I'll try a 5th and see how I like it.
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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2013, 11:18:39 PM »

I find I use 5th chords quite frequently. I really like the 'empty' harmony.

And to add some controversy, I UNTAPED the D# on my Bmaj chord on my second hand pokerwork!
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 01:00:53 AM »

I do this a lot, especially on Breton tunes and medieval tunes.  In this work I'm doing on chanson, I find myself finding dyad's that fit within the pianists chord, but aren't necessarily the 1 and 5.
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Stiamh

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 04:18:43 AM »

I often end with an octave, I'll try a 5th and see how I like it.

Well if you don't like it, thousands of others do (:) Ending with tonic + 4th below is standard Irish fiddle practice. For example, end an Em tune with [EB,] ;  a D tune with [DA,] ; an A or Am tune with [AE] (the last is something you can do on a B/C but not on a standard C#/D).

Chris Ryall

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Re: Fifth chords?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 11:22:54 AM »

Since I came across this, I'm sort of slipping in 1+5 double notes in on right end where ever it'll fit ... to see what it sounds like. I have to say that guitarist "5" chords were an eye opener to me. I had got most of my basic chord theory on the val d'Isere course, where they wouldn't even call this un accord as there is so little harmonic 'colour' in there. "Empty harmony" is another nice concept.

The Grenoble approach to 'altered dominant' (where we seek colour!) actually includes an assumption that the 5th interval can be completely sacrificed  >:E

  http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9185.msg115072.html#msg115072  = alteration 5  'as it happens'  ::)

All in all, I'm coming to see our "5 chord" as more of a fortified tonic, and as such perhaps as important rhythmically as harmonically (those 'power' guitar riffs certainly as of that genre), but I do think it might be a useful name for that taped out "B5" chord so common on our left end?   Beyond that, the posts above suggest that we melodeonistas like it as a 'finish'. Return to tonic is a strong traditional  feature in folk harmony, so accenting that with say a right end D5 (or its inversion) makes sense to my brain.

As a contrast, the jazzer's "full stop" statement would often be tonic+ maj 7th; we know how wrong that can sound in a folk session  :-\ but I've listened to trios where every solo ended in that way.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 11:25:43 AM by Chris Ryall »
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