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Author Topic: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!  (Read 11428 times)

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IanD

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2009, 07:18:44 PM »

I think George has a very valid point.

As someone who both plays and dances for Morris (for a mixed Cotswold side) it is much easier (and more enjoyable) to dance to a musician(s) who are playing for the dance, rather than just playing.  A good musician, playing with lots of "lift" is a joy to dance to, whereas a musician playing "flat" without lift can be extremely hard work. 

Also, it is key for there to be interaction between musician and dancer, a good musician watches the dancers, knows the dance, and can match the pace of the music to the rhythm of the dance.  This helps the dancers enormously.  there is nothing worse than dancing either too fast or too slow - either way it can be completely knackering.

Just a few thoughts in defence of "poor" dancing, at the end of the day it's a lot about the team of both dancer and musician being on the same wavelength

Trevor
 

I couldn't agree more. I've been told that Smiffs dance better when I'm playing, and it's not just because of the music -- it's the interaction/rapport between the musician and the dancers. For example, in a given corner dance I know exactly how everyone in the team dances and can therefore play to get the best out of them, though this can sometimes be challenging given some possible pairings :-)

Ian
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Falseknight

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2009, 07:27:23 PM »


If Bellowhead exists as a reasonable development of folk music, why not allow a development of Morris music.

Er, what about "Morris On", "The Albion Dance Band" and "Tiger Moth"?
My mistake but never noticed them in the Black Book.
Old Bill but not old enough to have seen Cecil.

Sorry, they are not  ;D but you should hear the rootsier end of folk react to Bellowhead (and all the other innovators from the last thirty years).  Not a lot different from black book in fact.

I think you have to live with the fact that if you are going to change things and innovate, you move away from "time immoral tradition".
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IanD

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2009, 07:30:04 PM »


If Bellowhead exists as a reasonable development of folk music, why not allow a development of Morris music.

Er, what about "Morris On", "The Albion Dance Band" and "Tiger Moth"?
My mistake but never noticed them in the Black Book.
Old Bill but not old enough to have seen Cecil.

We've danced to Bellowhead (though I spent a couple of hours arranging the music with them), a 140-piece military brass band (and one melodeon -- I spent a lot longer arranging the music with the bandmaster for this), The Committee Band (on numerous occasions, which took almost no arranging given that most of the band are excellent morris musicians), but most often one (or sometimes more) melodeons.

The tunes ranged from collected morris tunes (some rather modified) through traditional English or Renaissance tunes that we've paired up with dances (collected or written), to traditional or modern written Swedish tunes which just happen to be a perfect fit to the dances.

In all these cases the result has been cheers, whistles and a standing ovation from the audience.

So its not what the tune is, where it came from, or what instruments or band is playing it -- it's playing something damn well that works with the dance, and which inspires the dancers.

Anyone who says "But it's not traditional!" -- where do they think the tradition came from? Many of the "traditional" tunes came from relatively recent sources like music hall or were written tunes for a person or occasion (Jenny Lind), so they weren't "traditional" at the time.

Ian
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Andy Next Tune

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2009, 10:32:05 PM »


So its not what the tune is, where it came from, or what instruments or band is playing it -- it's playing something damn well that works with the dance, and which inspires the dancers.

Ian

Nicely put, Ian.

Its also interesting to see how this debate is progressing in different parts of the internet - there's a new Facebook Group titled "Morris won't die out" - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58378791290 which is worth a read, including input from melodeonista Simon Care before and after his appearance on the Jeremy Vine Show on R2.

Andy
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C age ing

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2009, 06:59:53 AM »

I think you have to live with the fact that if you are going to change things and innovate, you move away from "time immoral tradition".
Is that a Freudian slip?
Cecil and his ilk passed on what they thought was good for you not the tradition of trying to make some money. If that mob had been around from the middle of the 20th Century there would be no R & B, R 'n R, Motown, Rock in all its forms, Punk and it's successors. Earlier, if they had found New Orleans Jass, they'd have written it down and we'd be playing it from the dots with no improvisation, just like concerto codas.
I might be the oldest bloke on this board but suspect I could be the most modern.
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Mike Higgins

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2009, 08:41:06 AM »

Quote
So its not what the tune is, where it came from, or what instruments or band is playing it -- it's playing something damn well that works with the dance, and which inspires the dancers.

Anyone who says "But it's not traditional!" -- where do they think the tradition came from? Many of the "traditional" tunes came from relatively recent sources like music hall or were written tunes for a person or occasion (Jenny Lind), so they weren't "traditional" at the time.

Ian I absolutely agree with every word. Recently a person in another team told me off because we did a dance "wrongly" and not as taught to him at a workshop, this "traditional" dance was made up by our team and danced to a tune made up by someone in the team.

Although I am not a traditionalist I do wonder how much Morris there would still be without the inspiration provided by the venerable dance and tune collections and the work of those people who have cared for and collected this material.

Sorry for the early morning ramblings.
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Falseknight

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2009, 10:35:33 AM »

The traditional way of learning song:

Off a record  ;D.
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joe

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2009, 11:56:41 AM »

We were once told we werent dancing our own tradition properly! That went down well.
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IanD

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2009, 06:40:25 PM »

Quote
So its not what the tune is, where it came from, or what instruments or band is playing it -- it's playing something damn well that works with the dance, and which inspires the dancers.

Anyone who says "But it's not traditional!" -- where do they think the tradition came from? Many of the "traditional" tunes came from relatively recent sources like music hall or were written tunes for a person or occasion (Jenny Lind), so they weren't "traditional" at the time.

Ian I absolutely agree with every word. Recently a person in another team told me off because we did a dance "wrongly" and not as taught to him at a workshop, this "traditional" dance was made up by our team and danced to a tune made up by someone in the team.

Although I am not a traditionalist I do wonder how much Morris there would still be without the inspiration provided by the venerable dance and tune collections and the work of those people who have cared for and collected this material.

Sorry for the early morning ramblings.

One of the tunes I introduced to the Morris world (Serpentiner och Konfetti, written by Mats Eden of Groupa, absolutely perfect for Bampton Sidestep) has been taken up by several other teams -- in fact I even heard a rumour that Bampton have tried it! -- so this must now, by definition, be a traditional tune for Cotswold Morris.

Ian
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2009, 08:04:56 PM »

One of the tunes I introduced to the Morris world (Serpentiner och Konfetti, written by Mats Eden of Groupa, absolutely perfect for Bampton Sidestep) has been taken up by several other teams -- in fact I even heard a rumour that Bampton have tried it! -- so this must now, by definition, be a traditional tune for Cotswold Morris.

Ian

I don't suppose you have the ABC for the tune do you Ian?

Pete.
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Martin J

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2009, 10:05:23 PM »

Back in the sixties a new wave of enthusiasts thought they had discovered folk, both music and dance.  They eagerly sought out manuscripts, old people in remote places and revived dead or dying customs.  It was new, it was against the establishment and it was theirs.  They laid claim to it.  Do the maths.  It is the same people who are now complaining there is little or no new blood, and why should there be.  Did they (I do include myself in this errant band of enthusiasts) want to join something already going on or did they want to find their own future ?

At what point in time do we draw the line and say this is the day that tradition was set in stone.  How accurate are the bowdlerised recordings of the turn of the century ?  Why is music written today by ordinary folk not folk music ?

Some of our better players who become performers are the worst enemies of folk, complaining about low fees compared with pop music.  Surely if you want big bucks you play rock or pop but folk music is about ordinary people playing for themselves, their families and their friends.  In my mind it is by definition unpaid.  Newcastle folk uni is great but it is advocating large fees for folk performances.

I'm not claiming innocence in this game.  I do willingly take my fee when performing but I'm under no illusion that the term really should mean by the folk for the folk. (to paraphrase an American president)

So maybe folk of any type will struggle on until our generation dies out and youngsters can rediscover it and claim it for their own.  I hope they do and I hope it gives them as much pleasure as it's given me over the years.
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2009, 10:10:14 PM »

I completely agree - we did and it was allvery anti-establishment. How come nobody interviewed 18-30 who are doing quite a lot to show up us elders? Or was it the Ring doing a recruitment drive?

Chris.
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IanD

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2009, 11:39:57 PM »

One of the tunes I introduced to the Morris world (Serpentiner och Konfetti, written by Mats Eden of Groupa, absolutely perfect for Bampton Sidestep) has been taken up by several other teams -- in fact I even heard a rumour that Bampton have tried it! -- so this must now, by definition, be a traditional tune for Cotswold Morris.

Ian

I don't suppose you have the ABC for the tune do you Ian?

Pete.

I've got all sorts: there's a recording of it here:

http://www.hammersmithmorris.org.uk/drupal/index.php?q=node/19

and I've attached a PDF file of the dots, and here's the ABC...

Cheers

Ian

P.S. The version I play, which may have drifted a little from the original :-)

X:1
T:Serpentiner och Konfetti
C:Mats Eden, arr. Ian Dedic
N:From "Vildhonung" by Groupa
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/2=150
K:D
V:1
|:F2.A2.A2F2|.G2.A2B2.G2|E2.G2.B2G2|
(F.A F z.D2.d2|.c2d2.e2d2|.c4c zB2-|
B zG2.B2c2|(B.d B) z.A2G2|F2.A2.A2F2|
G2.A2B2.G2|E2.G2.B2G2|(F.A F) z.D2.d2|c2.d2.e2d2|
.c2A2.c2e2|(e.f e) z.d2c2|[1d4A2.G2:|[2.d2A2.d2e2
|:[.F2.f2]z2[F4f4]|([G4g4][Gg]) z2a-|
a2.g2.f2g2|a2.d2.f2a2|[.B4.b4][B4b4]|
([G4g4][Gg]) zf2|.e2c2.e2g2|(f.g f) z.d2e2|
f2.A2f2.A3/2(f/2|g4).f2g2|.a2g2.f2g2|
.a2d2f2a2|[.B4.b4][B2b2].a2|[G2g2].f2.e2c2|
(e.f e) z.d2c2|[1.d2A2.d2e2:|[2d4A2G2|]
V:2
K:D Bass
|:D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|E,,4G,,4|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|
D,,4G,,4|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|
G,,4[G,4B,4D4]|G,,4A,,4|D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|
E,,4G,,4|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|D,,4G,,4|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|
A,,4G,,4|[1D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]:|[2D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]
|:D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|G,,4[G,4B,4D4]|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|
D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|B,,4[B,4D4F4]|E,,4[E,4G,4B,4]|
A,,4[A,4C4E4]|D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|
G,,4[G,4B,4D4]|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|
B,,4[B,4D4F4]|E,,4[E,4G,4B,4]|A,,4[A,4C4E4]|
[1D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]:|[2D,,4[D,4F,4A,4]|]

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 11:43:34 PM by IanD »
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Falseknight

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2009, 12:26:14 AM »

In the 80s, at a local level, Barn Dances etc. payed far better than rock - even with a big band.
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joe

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2009, 09:46:48 AM »

In the 80s, at a local level, Barn Dances etc. payed far better than rock - even with a big band.

They still do as far as I am aware, if only I could find a band ...
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Martin J

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2009, 11:05:57 AM »

In the 80s, at a local level, Barn Dances etc. payed far better than rock - even with a big band.
Very true.  The MU is still trying to stamp out the pay to play practice in London venues for rock bands.
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Falseknight

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2009, 04:25:13 PM »

In the 80s, at a local level, Barn Dances etc. payed far better than rock - even with a big band.
Very true.  The MU is still trying to stamp out the pay to play practice in London venues for rock bands.

Same game in Manchester, though the MU do not seem to be having much success.  It seems that becasue received wisdom says that Oasis were discovered in a Manchester club, all the naive young musicians believe that the towns nightspots are full of scouts and agents, and the mercenary promoters do nothing to gainsay this.

Quite sad really.
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2009, 08:30:33 PM »

Good News! The kerfuffle has driven a potential recruit to contact http://www.ebormorris.org.uk/;D

YEE PEE !!!!

Chris-the-modest (with much to be modest about.)
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george garside

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2009, 08:39:42 PM »

several letters  on subject of Morris Dancing in tomorrows (10 jan) (London) Times. Including one by me!!

george
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Morris Dancing's dying out apparently...!
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2009, 11:02:54 PM »

I've got all sorts: there's a recording of it here:

Awesome stuff Ian, a lovely tune tastefully played. I've joined the Smiffs site hoping to find a CD full of same.

I'll never be rich.  ::)

Pete.
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