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[manfrini]

I require information on the popularity of 2 Row D/D# in the UK and Ireland.
I need this information to back up my opinion that very few players use this tuning.
I would like this to clarify a dispute with a customer.
Many thanks
Robert

[Mike Hirst]

I have been playing D/D# as my tuning of choice for the past 12 months. With the exception of some of the Irish players who post vids on youtube I don't know of anyone else using this system.

[LDbosca]

The only use that you're likely to find of a D/D# box in Ireland is as an Eb box for C#/D players.

[MatthewVanitas]

The only use that you're likely to find of a D/D# box in Ireland is as an Eb box for C#/D players.

Not being a 2-row guy, I was curious about that: is the inner row just more comfortable to play and thus C#/D is easier to play in D? Or are there people who feel comfier playing on the outer row who could theoretically play D on a D/D#? As a one-row player I'd just assumed that it'd be comfier to play on the outside and switch to the inner row for chromatics (much like a piano), but the great preference for C#/D over D/D# seems to indicate the opposite.

[Stiamh]

The only use that you're likely to find of a D/D# box in Ireland is as an Eb box for C#/D players.

Not being a 2-row guy, I was curious about that: is the inner row just more comfortable to play and thus C#/D is easier to play in D? Or are there people who feel comfier playing on the outer row who could theoretically play D on a D/D#? As a one-row player I'd just assumed that it'd be comfier to play on the outside and switch to the inner row for chromatics (much like a piano), but the great preference for C#/D over D/D# seems to indicate the opposite.

The outer row would probably be easier to play on, all other things being equal. I think the ascendancy of the inside-out playing style - discovered by Peter Wyper c. 1915 according to Steve Chambers - has to do with the convenience of the way accidentals are placed.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (there should be an icon to warn of a member's hobby horse, e.g. modes for Chris and the superiority of the B/C/C# for George  and the following for me    ):

Having the accidentals on an outer row that is a semitone lower makes dipping from a note on the inner row to the outer very easy, partly because of positioning and partly because there is no change of bellows direction. This makes playing an Irish 5-note roll possible with a semitone lower grace. But it also makes playing all kinds of tunes with chromatic inflections very handy. I've tried some of the kinds of tunes I am thinking of D/D# style and it's just much more difficult. (Examples of the top of my head: La Partida, The Blackbird as on Eavesdropper, Peter Leatham's hornpipe which I posted on here a while ago...)

Mike Hirst thinks that a wider range of useful keys can be played easily on a D/D# than a C#/D and he may well be right. But I surmise that the semitone-dip-in-the-same-direction facility of inside-out boxes is what killed the D/D#. 

[Mike Hirst]

the ascendancy of the inside-out playing style - discovered by Peter Wyper c. 1915

Not so. The Wypers Brothers melodeon tutor advocates playing in both directions. Instruction is given for playing six different major scales, with suggested fingering for playing outside-in and for playing inside-out. Both are given equal validity. A factor which is apparent in listening to their recorded output.

[KLR]

Here's an older discussion:  Some thoughts on D-D# UNTRANSPOSED.  I do know one fellow who plays on the D row of such a box, but have never had the opportunity to pick his brain abouts its relative merits; he inevitably shows up with the fiddle so it's rare to hear him play the box any more.  Certainly you don't encounter it often.

And from thesession.org here's a discussion of how common Eb sessions are in Ireland.  That would be the principal reason for acquiring one of the squeaky little guys in the first place, I'd think.  One person says every sess he's been to in Limerick City was in Eb, and I can't imagine all the boxistas in that town just figuring oh well I'll just stay home.  Next comment mentions that "You can find a session in E Flat anywhere in Ireland but more often then not in Limerick, Kerry or Cork."  Of course this is all anecdotal.  You might find your answer at that website, melodeon.net has always been mostly a destination for players of English music.

[pgroff]

Hi all,

Sure, D/D# is rarer than many other semitone systems, but it can be found in the US as well as in Ireland.

This is not to take issue with anyone who prefers a different system, but to report some observations.  I'm a pluralist and I like to encourage lots of different kinds of instruments and styles.

When I lived in California decades ago there were a couple of nice players who used D/D# boxes in concert pitch for Irish music.  I do not know for a fact, but I remember being told that when Joe Cooley used a D/D# box he sometimes played "outside-in" in D, and other times from the inside row (in C#/D style but transposed up a half step).  I like to experiment with a lot of different systems and enjoy playing both ways on my own D/D# box (at my own modest skill level). 

Similarly I've known excellent players in New England who like to play "outside in" from time to time on C#/D boxes (so in the key of C#) or B/C boxes (so in the key of B). Those fingerings also work just great on a D/D# which would often bring those tunes into more "session friendly" keys. 

On some boxes you get a nicer sound from the outside row (at least to my own taste).  I also play the Irish-American D/C# system.  That's a semitone system too, I suppose, but the rows are set up higher/lower rather than lower/higher, and the style of play is strongly based on the outside D row of buttons (the inside C# row rarely has more than 9 buttons, sometimes only 7, 5, or 3).  But for the hundreds of Irish tunes that can be played using the commonest notes D, E, F#, G, A, B, Cnat, C#, the fingering of the basic notes and the bellows work is exactly the same for D/C# and D/D# boxes (the ornaments might be different depending on your style, but not necessarily).  So a lot of my D/C# settings transfer right over to outside-in playing on any of the lower/higher semitone systems such as D/D# (or, in transposed keys, B/C, C/C#, C#/D boxes etc).

PG

[gettabettabox]

yep,...d/d+ would be the way to go for me, but playing off the outside row in concert pitch, and then taking any 'fancy' notes that I need from the inside row.... hopefully, these would be in an opposing bellows direction, contrary to the tricks available with c+/d,... so as to keep the definition or articulation going. (this is the beauty of the d/d+ system in my opinion, but one has to move quickly with the fingers and briskly with the bag of wind between the ends!)

this key combination is an older tuning and the people in the green isle weren't really in a position to choose, but fortunately my ancestors had innate musicality, adaptable enough to play anything that was available to them. this is why this melodeon style of playing on a two row likely migrated across the water to the Americas, being played alongside the popular d tuned melodeons and then the emerging d/c+ systems.
the important thing is, the boxes with this tuning have to stay light because of the bellow dynamics, hence the preference for the 3 voice, forsaking the bigger 4 voice. (opinions here will differ.)
I am still after a grey 3 voice paolo in d/d+, but 50's model will do!...and i'll pay a lot more for this than the worth of four hohner Erica's!
 p.s. thank you to lester for the tunes.
 

[Stiamh]

the ascendancy of the inside-out playing style - discovered by Peter Wyper c. 1915

Not so. The Wypers Brothers melodeon tutor advocates playing in both directions. Instruction is given for playing six different major scales, with suggested fingering for playing outside-in and for playing inside-out. Both are given equal validity. A factor which is apparent in listening to their recorded output.

What I wrote is not contradicted by what you wrote, Mike. I merely said that Wyper discovered inside-out playing. Ascendancy came later with J Shand and P O'Brien...

[gettabettabox]

sorry, what I mean is, that from my family history, people played whatever they could get their hands on ...usually the single row.
my father (89) can still recall memories of the when the 'chromatic boxes' came into the locality, c/c+ or d/d+ boxes (pre-b/c)  and the recollection of one local fast-gun who called on my grandmother, (frequently in demand for her melodeon at local house parties etc,) seeking advice on how to employ the basses of his new fangled instrument..... she was a single row player, from travelling stock and likely struggled to help him, particularly if it was a hohner.  (ask theo or other professional fettlers on here!)
but the d/d+ was in circulation, became a bit of history.

[gettabettabox]

well said that man! didn't know that mr Mahoney tinkered with the system as well, thought he was a b/c man,  but I guess no problem to him?!

[gettabettabox]

or even o'Mahoney....sorry danny.

[LDbosca]

Anytime I've heard Danny play a D/D# it's been as an "F" box, so B/C transposed up a tone and a half, and not as its own system. Use as a transposing box is the main use amongst the guys Tom's listed, Mairtin O'Connor being the one that I've seen use a D/D# in concert pitch.

[pgroff]

I met Steve Jones at a session in the Catskills a few years ago, where Charlie Harris, Billy McComiskey, and Patty Furlong (among others) were playing some beautiful strong & steady music. 3 grey boxes too I think!  The session was in concert pitch, or at least in tune with the old-school upright piano.  Steve will know better than I but I have a feeling that one of the boxes, maybe the one Charlie was playing, might have been a D/D# played from the outside row.

PG

[tedrick]

good discussion -

so does a B/C or C#/D player pick up one of these and play the tune with the same fingerings, just as they would on the B/C or c#/d - or does the player need to learn a completely new/different keyboard layout and fingering patterns?

Reed

[Mike Hirst]

good discussion -

so does a B/C or C#/D player pick up one of these and play the tune with the same fingerings, just as they would on the B/C or c#/d - or does the player need to learn a completely new/different keyboard layout and fingering patterns?

Reed

That would depend on the flexibility and objectives of the individual musician.
 
The biggest stumbling block for the B/C or C#/D player is that the playing position for the keys A,D,G on The D/D# would result in the less useful keys  F#,B,E and G#,C#,F# respectively. Unless the musician habitually plays in some unusual circumstances it is unlikely that he or she will be familiar with that fingering.

On the contrary for the D/D# player fingering positions used by B/C and C#/D players for playing in A,D,G would result in the arguably more useful keys of C,F,Bb or Bb,Eb,Ab respectively, when used on the D/D# instrument.

Speaking from my own experience I have no problem playing in different positions and I can happily switch to B/C, C#D, or other semitone boxes without difficulty.

In reference to earlier comments in this and other similar threads. I think it is important to put forward my considered opinion that the two rows on the semitone box are mirror images of one another. I frequently practice running triads in semitone intervals up and down the keyboard (C,C#,D,Eb,E,etc.). There is a marked similarity in the chord shapes as they shift focus. There is not a perfect mirroring, but it's pretty damn close.

Recently I have been focusing on modal shifts - building tune sets that shift from, say, G major to G minor, D minor to D mixolodyan,  and so on. This necessarily implies a constant shifting from inside-out to outside-in playing. The consequence of this is that I am more aware of the unique relationship each button and each note have with other button/note pairs, than with the linear relationship implied in the standard two row layout.

[pgroff]

good discussion -

so does a B/C or C#/D player pick up one of these and play the tune with the same fingerings, just as they would on the B/C or c#/d - or does the player need to learn a completely new/different keyboard layout and fingering patterns?

Reed

Hi Reed,

The answer is "Yes." *

Yes, you can use the same fingerings to play a box in the keys of  F#/G, G/G#, G#/A, A/A#, Bb/B, B/C, C/C#, C#/D, D/D# (etc), and you'll get the same tunes -- but those tunes will come out in different keys on each box.

Yes, you do have to learn different fingerings on each of those systems -- if you want the tunes to come out in the same key on each.

* Leaving aside the D/C#, the other systems mentioned above basically have the same *relative* relationship of notes in the melody key layout.

PG

edited to add:  sorry, cross-posted with Mike

[greybox1]

D/D# tuning has become very popular in Ireland among players in the last few years. It makes the music much brighter and is first preference for alot of box players. Id say most of the box players I know own a d/d # or is looking for one.
I second what is said earlier you cant beat the sound of a vintage paolo soprani in d/d#  ie Tony MacMahon, Joe Cooley etc
I suppose I will keep dreaming 

[Chris Ryall]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (there should be an icon to warn of a member's hobby horse, e.g. modes for Chris and the superiority of the B/C/C# for George  and the following for me    ):

We all have our little hobby horses
 

Having the accidentals on an outer row that is a semitone lower makes dipping from a note on the inner row to the outer very easy, partly because of positioning and partly because there is no change of bellows direction. This makes playing an Irish 5-note roll possible with a semitone lower grace. But it also makes playing all kinds of tunes with chromatic inflections very handy. I've tried some of the kinds of tunes I am thinking of D/D# style and it's just much more difficult. (Examples of the top of my head: La Partida, The Blackbird as on Eavesdropper, Peter Leatham's hornpipe which I posted on here a while ago...)

My outer rows are C#/D and I certainly prefer them that way. Also on my 9/10/11 layout I get effectively get more 'accidental/reversed/helper' notes than main row! How cool is that? 

(Hobby horse icon is public domain, incidentally ...)