Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: C#/D Modern Bass Layout  (Read 2783 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Trefry

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« on: April 21, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »

Hello everyone,

I'm a new member and this is my first post. Can this group help me better understand the applicability of the modern c#/d bass layout to Irish music and some of the less obvious possibilities?

When playing tunes in the key of G, what do people typically play as a substitute for a C bass note or C major chord?  All I can think of are the E and G bass notes. Are there any tricks I'm not thinking of?

How do people use the E major chord on the push (edit) and the B major chord on the pull (edit), if at all, when playing Irish tunes?  I can't think of any use for those two buttons -at least with respect to my limited repertoire in D, G, A and E minor.

Lastly, when playing tunes in E minor (Dorian), what chords, if any, do people typically use or am I limited to just the E and B bass notes to approximate the E minor chord?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 08:33:34 PM by J Trefry »
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2971
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 01:23:31 PM »

By modern bass layout, do you mean the one that has an E push on the inside bottom pair? If so I think that is a big waste of a pair of buttons... presumably it is inspired by the addition of a push D in the same position on some B/C layouts. You would use it once in a blue moon, esp. when playing in E major, but a push G would be far more useful.

The lack of a C chord is the elephant in the C#/D bass room. You can substitute bass notes, as you suggest, or occasionally a thirdless A chord, but the results are not very satisfactory (don't fool anyone!). If you are serious about playing basses on C#/D, you really a 12-bass box with a C/F F/C chord pair.

Some people sacrifice the F#/B pair to get a C chord, but I wouldn't do that because it would seriously compromise your ability to play interesting accompaniments in keys with 2 and 3 sharps. I moved to 12 basses because of the missing C, but if I had to have an 8-bass box, I'd definitely stick with the standard layout, or rather the "Jackie Daly" 8-bass layout with G/G on the bottom inside pair.

Edit: I meant F/C chord pair... I made the mistake of specifying C/F once (perhaps because of the familiarity of C/F boxes) and duly got exactly what I asked for, n'est-ce pas Mike R?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 04:23:32 PM by Steve Jones »
Logged
Senior member at meoldone.net

www.rogermillington.com

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2971
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 01:25:51 PM »

PS You do need to get the thirds removed from your A, E, B and F# chords.  This can be done with tape - easily on an Italian box and considerably less easily on a Hohner. You might as well take them out of D and G too, because who knows, you might one day explore flat keys.
Logged
Senior member at meoldone.net

www.rogermillington.com

deltasalmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 972
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 02:07:00 PM »

I just got a new C#/D accordion. The bass seems to not match the "standard" ones that I've seen nor the Jackie Daly layout.

I gather that the Jackie Daly is like this:

A/E    D/A
F#/B  G/G

I don't have it in front of me right now so I don't know if the order is exactly correct but i do know that the pairings are correct. I believe this is what mine has:

G/C   D/G
F#/B  A/E

Looks like they're moved around a bit but the main difference seems that the A pull is swapped with a C pull, which I've guess is for playing in G.

I searched through the forum but didn't see any layout quite like this so I figured I'd post it. Don't know if it's a good one or not. The extra C is useful but is there any harm in getting rid of the pull A?
Logged
Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2971
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 05:37:51 AM »

The pull A is essential for playing in D, I would say. Your layout gives you the ability to play a 3-chord trick in the key of G - impossible with the standard or JD layout - but stymies you for playing in D.

I find that when playing in D I use the pull A much more than the push A. In fact the push A is mainly useful for playing in the key of A, but a pull A will be essential for that too.  :(


Logged
Senior member at meoldone.net

www.rogermillington.com

deltasalmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 972
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 02:20:45 PM »

The pull A is essential for playing in D, I would say. Your layout gives you the ability to play a 3-chord trick in the key of G - impossible with the standard or JD layout - but stymies you for playing in D.

I find that when playing in D I use the pull A much more than the push A. In fact the push A is mainly useful for playing in the key of A, but a pull A will be essential for that too.  :(

I was actually hoping when I saw the accordion that it would have a D/A bass. I'm not too great with the basses but I figured if it had a D/A I could play them like a one-row when playing in D. Oh well, I'll go with the normal approach of just hitting bass keys and seeing if it sounds good and if nothing works, I'm okay with just playing the treble side.
Logged
Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

Hasse

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2013, 09:53:48 PM »

The lack of a C chord is the elephant in the C#/D bass room. You can substitute bass notes, as you suggest, or occasionally a thirdless A chord, but the results are not very satisfactory (don't fool anyone!). If you are serious about playing basses on C#/D, you really a 12-bass box with a C/F F/C chord pair.

Well, I guess you only really need a 10 bass box to do that. My box (under way in Aaro Luukinens workshop) is going to get this bass layout:

F#/B D/A D/A G/G G/G
F#/B A/E A/E F/C F/C

Have to say that I'm not the most heavy user of the bass side on any type of two row box, but I do prefer the most important notes to be there. Whenever I've had a 12 bass box the 12th bass never really been used much, it's just gonna sit there adding weight to the box. So I hope this layout is going to be the perfect one for my needs an a C#/D box

When playing tunes in the key of G, what do people typically play as a substitute for a C bass note or C major chord?  All I can think of are the E and G bass notes. Are there any tricks I'm not thinking of
Depending on the situation and which instruments you are playing the use of E and G can work OK. Just not hang on them for too long ;) At the moment I also only got a 8 bass C#/D without a C bass, (besides the Streb...), and if appropriate/possible I like to try and blend in the low C treble, especially if in a slower tune because that can  sometimes take out some of the oddness of using the G or E bass. But then as I already mentioned I'm often going very easy on the bass especially if a double bass or guitar player is around.

BTW: maybe I ought to mention that I hardly ever play any Irish music on my C#/D. I mostly stick to Scandinavian music, but I guess same things ought to apply when we talk about use of basses?
Logged
Sweden, Skåne

deltasalmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 972
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 01:59:13 AM »

BTW: maybe I ought to mention that I hardly ever play any Irish music on my C#/D. I mostly stick to Scandinavian music, but I guess same things ought to apply when we talk about use of basses?

That's interesting. I'm not very familiar with Scandinavian music. I think I only know one tune, Haudanmaan Hääpolska, I believe its Finnish. Is C#/D a common tuning for Scandinavian music?
Logged
Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

sine labore

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 08:15:45 AM »

I also think about C#/D and also D/D#. Theo, I know you are listening

Logged

Hasse

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 09:40:25 PM »

BTW: maybe I ought to mention that I hardly ever play any Irish music on my C#/D. I mostly stick to Scandinavian music, but I guess same things ought to apply when we talk about use of basses?

That's interesting. I'm not very familiar with Scandinavian music. I think I only know one tune, Haudanmaan Hääpolska, I believe its Finnish. Is C#/D a common tuning for Scandinavian music?

No C#/D isn't really that common for Scandinavian music. The G/C is a BIG favourite and are the most common tuning in both Sweden, Norway and Finland (with some hybrids especially bass side). In Denmark it's mostly anything goes with D/G as a favourite. For some reason melodeon players in Sweden then to play mostly with other melodeon players (G/C). But if you want to play melodeon with other instruments in Sweden, you can't really restrict yourself to G/C. There are for instant a lot of tunes in D which of course goes well on the C#/D, but for the more tricky keys in some tunes I honestly tend to prefer my concertina...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:42:13 PM by Hasse »
Logged
Sweden, Skåne

ButtonBox21

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 10:59:20 PM »

Another option I have seen on C#D is DD, AA, GG, CC. You will have only four chords but these are the most frequently played chords in C#D. You can skip the CC for EE if you play in E a lot. I have attached what is considered the standard C#D layout with Standard or Paolo Soprani bass layout.  :||:
Logged
Keep on Squeezin'

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8106
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 11:07:47 PM »

Gosh, that's a bit different! ::)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Mike Hirst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1034
  • Primatona IV D/D#, Tritone G/C/B, One Row in D
    • Berking Mad Ceilidh Band
Re: C#/D Modern Bass Layout
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2013, 12:54:56 AM »

Another option I have seen on C#D is DD, AA, GG, CC. You will have only four chords but these are the most frequently played chords in C#D. You can skip the CC for EE if you play in E a lot. I have attached what is considered the standard C#D layout with Standard or Paolo Soprani bass layout.  :||:

I am currently enjoying using a variant of this on my D/D#, using EE, AA, DD, GG. All are open fifths, giving good options for playing Dmaj, Gmaj, Amaj, Em, Am, Dm, with limited options for Gm.

In truth any set of adjacent chords give good options. CC, FF, BbBb, EbEb would be equally valid, but, perhaps, less socially acceptable.

My personal choice for C#/D would be EE, AA, DD, GG, with the E chord voiced as an open fifth to allow for playing in Em.
Logged
feel free to be yourself
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal