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[Andrew Wigglesworth]

I've been told the the G major part should be first, but so many people have learned it from Townsend's  book that it's more commonly played that way, even though it's technically wrong.

I always play it the correct way round.

[Sage Herb]

My grandmother and great-grandmother both performed this as a song as part of their music hall routines and I have been told that they sang it with the Em part for the verses and the G major part as the chorus. That does not prove, of course, that this was the original order in which the tune was played.

I never met either lady because my grandmother died before I was born. However, my mother told me that the Rochdale dancers learnt the tune from my great-grandmother, Flower Dawes. This is possible because she lived in the vicinity, but it may just be an old wives' tale!

That's fascinating. I don't suppose that they told you the title or first line of the song?
Cheers
Steve

[Sage Herb]

My grandmother and great-grandmother both performed this as a song as part of their music hall routines and I have been told that they sang it with the Em part for the verses and the G major part as the chorus. That does not prove, of course, that this was the original order in which the tune was played.

I never met either lady because my grandmother died before I was born. However, my mother told me that the Rochdale dancers learnt the tune from my great-grandmother, Flower Dawes. This is possible because she lived in the vicinity, but it may just be an old wives' tale!

That's fascinating. I don't suppose that they told you the title or first line of the song?
Cheers
Steve

And I should also have asked whether your mother had seen the dance and what she knew about it. I ask because it's generally asserted that no evidence exists on the subject. See, for instance, http://folkopedia.efdss.org/Rochdale_Coconut_Dance.  You may know more than anyone else!
Cheers
Steve

[Chris Ryall]

Hadn't given this tune great thought as I've never 'led' it, I just jam along.

I don't think perfect cadence is actually there on an 8 button bass end, hence all the variation. But if you use left end for that (all important) pedal note and tweak in chord effects on the right nice thing emerge.

Say we are on the major part. It finishes on a G chord (in essence). You can "extend" this to G^maj7 simply by moving that a finger out to the D row push F#.  That needs to be transient or it sounds slushy, but it's still a classic chord for "end of phrase" so "legal". 

But we now have most of Bm .. which resolves to Em. If you play  the G chord differently -- say G^chord/B_bass .. the cadence is even stronger.

 Or play the notes of the chord down from B |BGF#D| against (G,B) bass of your choice? Actually I quite like that way!

Modulating the other way you want a cadence with tension to take the listener's ear into major mode.  Playing its final G on the pull works for me. Then you can add in C from the inner row to get a sus4 effect.  Against this 'tension' run pull A_bass then pull D_bass .. chord has become [Gc]/D .. which resolves sweetly to G 

Basically you are using stacked forth intervals for tension moving into G major and thirds for relaxation when passing to Em.

Major/minor first?  Frankly m'dear I don't give a damn    Basically this tune should go on for ever and develops however the session want Belowhead version unless some idiot forces another ing medley .. Damn! Just when it was getting interesting

..hey, a Tristan chord works too!  Now that's really interesting!

[Lester]

Hadn't given this tune great thought as I've never 'led' it, I just jam along.

I don't think perfect cadence is actually there on an 8 button bass end, hence all the variation. But if you use left end for that (all important) pedal note and tweak in chord effects on the right nice thing emerge.

Say we are on the major part. It finishes on a G chord (in essence). You can "extend" this to G^maj7 simply by moving that a finger out to the D row push F#.  That needs to be transient or it sounds slushy, but it's still a classic chord for "end of phrase" so "legal". 

But we now have most of Bm .. which resolves to Em. If you play  the G chord differently -- say G^chord/B_bass .. the cadence is even stronger.

 Or play the notes of the chord down from B |BGF#D| against (G,B) bass of your choice? Actually I quite like that way!

Modulating the other way you want a cadence with tension to take the listener's ear into major mode.  Playing its final G on the pull works for me. Then you can add in C from the inner row to get a sus4 effect.  Against this 'tension' run pull A_bass then pull D_bass .. chord has become [Gc]/D .. which resolves sweetly to G 

Basically you are using stacked forth intervals for tension moving into G major and thirds for relaxation when passing to Em.

Major/minor first?  Frankly m'dear I don't give a damn    Basically this tune should go on for ever and develops however the session want Belowhead version unless some idiot forces another ing medley .. Damn! Just when it was getting interesting

..hey, a Tristan chord works too!  Now that's really interesting!

Any chance of a video to show some of the suggested technique?

[Theo]

Yes Chris a demo would be really helpful.  I don't have enough music theory to understand your written explanations, but I think I would understand if I could hear the effects you describe.

[Chris Ryall]

Looks like this ipad does videos as well a photos. Not entirely sure how they load up to t'internet but there will be a way.

[edit] thanks Lester, just the 7 stages needed then?
         Makes your tune a day look frankly heroic!

[Lester]

Looks like this ipad does videos as well a photos. Not entirely sure how they load up to t'internet but there will be a way.

http://www.imore.com/post-video-youtube-facebook-ipad

[Bob Ellis]

Sorry for the delay in responding, Steve. I have been away at Upton festival (which was brilliant!) and have only just returned home.

This came up in another thread last year and I quote below what I wrote then.

"There is a story handed down in my family that the Rochdale Coconut Dancers learnt their tune from my maternal great grandmother who was a music hall entertainer called Flower Dawes, although I have no means of verifying this. Her daughter, Nellie, was also a music hall entertainer. From what my mother told me, Flower and Nellie both performed this song on the stage, but I have no idea who wrote it or whether the words were added to an existing tune. My mother (who is no longer with us) used to sing it when I was a child. The E minor part came first and the first line of the song was "A pretty little girl with ribbons in her hair" or something like that. Unfortunately, since my mother died, there is nobody left in my family who remembers the words."

Unfortunately, that is all I know.

[Sage Herb]

Sorry for the delay in responding, Steve. I have been away at Upton festival (which was brilliant!) and have only just returned home.

This came up in another thread last year and I quote below what I wrote then.

"There is a story handed down in my family that the Rochdale Coconut Dancers learnt their tune from my maternal great grandmother who was a music hall entertainer called Flower Dawes, although I have no means of verifying this. Her daughter, Nellie, was also a music hall entertainer. From what my mother told me, Flower and Nellie both performed this song on the stage, but I have no idea who wrote it or whether the words were added to an existing tune. My mother (who is no longer with us) used to sing it when I was a child. The E minor part came first and the first line of the song was "A pretty little girl with ribbons in her hair" or something like that. Unfortunately, since my mother died, there is nobody left in my family who remembers the words."

Unfortunately, that is all I know.

Oh we'll, thanks anyway Bob!
Cheers, Steve

[TedK]

I have seen the story that "there is no evidence for a Rochdale Coconut Dance" repeated in several collections of tunes. I don't know where this idea originated (perhaps one of the early folk-revival adopters trying to keep their source quiet?) but it's not true!

The Rochdale Coconut Dance tune was collected by Anne Gilchrist from someone who had witnessed the dancers in the 1850s. It appeared in and article in the Journal of the English Folk Dance Society back in 1927. I have seen the original article at the VWML. A bit of Googling reveals someone calling themselves "Ruth Archer" has helpfully posted a relevant extract on Mudcat:

"Dr Henry Brierly, a native of Rochdale, sends me the tune of a 'Coco-nut Dance' which accompanied the Rochdale rush-cart in the 'fifties [she is referring to the 1850s]. The dancers held half a coco-nut shell in each hand, a half-shell also being strapped to each knee, and clapped the shells rhythmically to this unvarying tune, played by the band. The dance was stationary, but according to his recollection the coco-nut dancers preceded the drawing-team of young men, 'prancing' in the procession. The tune has a general resemblance to Mr Cecil Sharp's traditional versions of 'Country Gardens' and 'Hunt the Squirrel'. I have seen no other record of this dance."

I'm not sure how this fits in with Bob's story, but it seems quite possible there could be a link somewhere...

[Sage Herb]

Thanks Ted. I'll follow that reference up. Unfortunately it falls in date terms between my personal run of Journals of the Folk Song Society and Journals of the EFDSS starting in 1940, so I'll have to get to VWML. I'll report back in due course.
Cheers
Steve

[Anahata]

A bit of Googling reveals someone calling themselves "Ruth Archer" has helpfully posted a relevant extract on Mudcat:

In case you need to investigate that source any further, it might help to know that "Ruth Archer" on Mudcat is Joan Crump, who did the artists booking for Sidmouth Folk week a couple of years ago. She's easy to locate with Google, Facebook (@joaniecrump) etc. if you don't know her already.

[Ollie]

There's an entire article entitled 'Black Faces, Garlands, and Coconuts: Exotic Dances on Street and Stage' by Theresa Jill Buckland, published in Dance Research Journal, available on JSTOR, that makes many references to coconut dancing in Rochdale, and the surrounding area. I don't want to post the whole thing here, but if anyone's interested, drop me a PM.

Interestingly, in the Gilchrist article referred to above, the major section of the tune comes before the minor.

[Lester]

Interestingly, in the Gilchrist article referred to above, the major section of the tune comes before the minor.

The right way round then   

[Sage Herb]

There's an entire article entitled 'Black Faces, Garlands, and Coconuts: Exotic Dances on Street and Stage' by Theresa Jill Buckland, published in Dance Research Journal, available on JSTOR, that makes many references to coconut dancing in Rochdale, and the surrounding area. I don't want to post the whole thing here, but if anyone's interested, drop me a PM.

Interestingly, in the Gilchrist article referred to above, the major section of the tune comes before the minor.

PM sent