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Author Topic: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?  (Read 8994 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2013, 07:27:28 PM »

Fair comment. But we are in the land of cyber babble, and quite a few post here under assumed names. But until the last century the English (mainly under Norman French or German kings it has to be said) weren't always .. Shall we say "neighbourly" :|bl and that still comes out a little when we travel about.

The two St Chartier rulings I posted weren't imagined, nor were they in the written rules.  "No first this year"?  :o
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MatthewVanitas

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 08:55:17 PM »


Old-style melodeon is a one row with stops. I don't think the number of stops matters.
Everything else, including a one row without stops, is a button accordion.


That makes a lot of sense then, with the "one row melodeon" vs. "one row accordion" distinction. Just to be clear, are you indicating that:

1) "melodeon" is widely understood in Irish English (and "mileoidean" in Gaelic) to mean "one row with stops"?
2) The "unwritten rule" behind that Fleadh's "Melodeon" category is that it have stops
3) There's some written rule in Comhaltas materials somewhere specifying that the Melodeon category requires stops?

The net result is the same in any case, I'm pretty sure the instruments I have or am likely to own would meet that requirement in their stock form. Thanks for the clarity there.
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 09:15:29 PM »


Old-style melodeon is a one row with stops. I don't think the number of stops matters.
Everything else, including a one row without stops, is a button accordion.


That makes a lot of sense then, with the "one row melodeon" vs. "one row accordion" distinction. Just to be clear, are you indicating that:

1) "melodeon" is widely understood in Irish English (and "mileoidean" in Gaelic) to mean "one row with stops"?
2) The "unwritten rule" behind that Fleadh's "Melodeon" category is that it have stops
3) There's some written rule in Comhaltas materials somewhere specifying that the Melodeon category requires stops?

The net result is the same in any case, I'm pretty sure the instruments I have or am likely to own would meet that requirement in their stock form. Thanks for the clarity there.

I'm not being funny or owt ... but how about looking up the rules on the Comhaltas website and then asking them? They'd be best placed to know, wouldn't they?

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2013, 09:36:13 PM »

I'm not being funny or owt ... but how about looking up the rules on the Comhaltas website and then asking them? They'd be best placed to know, wouldn't they?

I'm sure Matthew has done the looking up.

http://comhaltas.ie/images/press_room/Rialacha_Fleadhanna_Ceoil_Web_2010.pdf

Notice that "one-row accordion" goes in the "Miscellaneous" category, along with 3- and 5-row boxes, piccolos, etc. which would seem to bear out what aradru said above about one-rows without stops not being old-style melodeons.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 09:40:03 PM by Steve Jones »
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2013, 08:08:40 AM »

Aradru: Do you mind me asking what your 'postscript' in Gaelic means? None of my Irish friends speak Gaelic so not much help there...... ???
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2013, 10:36:18 AM »

My French friends now speak of Boneparte … in similar terms to a more recent Austrian fella. And historically the Norman kings probably did their worst atrocities to the Saxon serfs, with the odd foray into Scotland.

But we are all good Europeans now (OK, not 1 in 4 of the English shire Hobbitry, voting in Thursday's local elections ;)). But I don't think the (lets be honest) Chauvinism we see in these competitions is anything to do with history. Rather a ferocious pride in one's own customs, and a tendency of the worthy judges to protect that … in their own little ways? I'd offer that disqualifying foreigners "for being too good" actually adds to the fun; it certainly did Cutting no harm!


Google translate does quite well on the postscript, but choked on the last word "mhileoidean", which probably has nothing to do with a flattened 7th note?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 10:44:11 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2013, 04:17:23 PM »


Old-style melodeon is a one row with stops. I don't think the number of stops matters.
Everything else, including a one row without stops, is a button accordion.


That makes a lot of sense then, with the "one row melodeon" vs. "one row accordion" distinction. Just to be clear, are you indicating that:

1) "melodeon" is widely understood in Irish English (and "mileoidean" in Gaelic) to mean "one row with stops"?
Melodeon means a one row with stops. Strictly speaking, a Mileoidean can mean any button accordion, including a one row with stops, but it generally refers to a one row with stops.
2) The "unwritten rule" behind that Fleadh's "Melodeon" category is that it have stops
Yes.
3) There's some written rule in Comhaltas materials somewhere specifying that the Melodeon category requires stops?
That, I am not certain about. Some years back, some wise guy turned up to the Melodeon competition with a 2 row. He had one of the rows taped over! Needless to say, he was shown the door.

The net result is the same in any case, I'm pretty sure the instruments I have or am likely to own would meet that requirement in their stock form. Thanks for the clarity there.

Wow, this is very interesting!  To me, this discussion and the definition taking shape here raise a lot of questions . . . not complaints, because of course the rules of any competition are somewhat arbitrary.  If you want to compete, you figure them out and work within them.

Some closer examination of that definition . . .

1) Melodeons as defined as "a 1-row accordion with stops" could still be very heterogeneous in construction, handling, and sound.

Would all those variants that meet this definition be acceptable as suggested above? Presumably the stops have to really be stops, up there on top (rather than another type of coupler / register ).  But what about "faux stops" as seen in Quebec (and early european boxes) -- or are those banned? What if it's a 4-stop Hohner 114 but it's been rebuilt to disable the stops (as at least one restorer does in the US)?  How about if you *add* stops to a Hohner Vienna-style 1040 1-row box, with 4 bass buttons?

Boxes meeting the definition above could sound radically different, I suppose, in how many sets of reeds and the voicing (or do they have to be exactly 4 voices, no more or less, LMMH with 4 stops pulled out?).  Those reeds could differ in key (or are only C and D allowed?), in the amount of tremelo, in pitch (A 452?) and different temperaments/tunings (equal? mean? just? cajun?).  Two different notes are commonly seen as variants for button # 1 on the draw (either sol or la, for a melodeon in the key of doh), but in principle the entire scale could be tuned to a minor key, or another variant scale (gamelan 10 tone ET?) and if so the box could still meet that definition above.  In fact, is 10 buttons a requirement, and could the buttons even sound the same note on press and draw? Pre-war boxes such as Globes with zinc reeds and the triads on a single plate have a different timbre from postwar Hohners  (leaving aside their other constructional differences).  I think that spoon basses give a very different sound from button basses, even when the melodeon has a "growlbox." 

And now we get to the key point that whether the instrument has a growlbox (sometimes called a "bass box" or even "base box") has been listed as a very important criterion by some judges -- this is not part of the definition given in earlier posts in this thread.

I think most judges in Irish music competitions would agree that both a 4-stop Globe Gold Medal or a postwar Hohner 114 are "10 key melodeons" despite their differences (open vs. covered pallets, spoon vs. button basses, timbre, temperament, etc.).  Probably safest to bring one of those to the competition, or maybe a modern cajun box (Castagnari melodeon/ Max OK?).  I think a lot of previous winners have done the job with Hohners.

But there are so many other types of 1-row boxes -- some with no growlbox or stops, some with no growlbox but with couplers (possibly true stops in some cases?), and some multi-voice 1-row boxes that I always considered melodeons (e.g. some Globes and Irish-American boxes) that have a growlbox but no stops, and sometimes no couplers of any kind.*  Personally, I would speculate that if the test is to see "how much music the competitor can get out of a box that handles like a 4-stop Hohner or Globe," the growlbox might be a more important criterion than the stops.

What about use of the right thumbstrap -- compulsory?  How about the shoulder strap?  These factors really alter the mechanics of playing and may affect the resulting music too, so from a perspective of "standardizing the competition" they would seem more relevant than presence/absence of stops . . . but wouldn't either approach be allowed, just as a flute player might play with the flute on his shoulder, or on a keyed vs. keyless flute?

2) A totally different point, maybe OT and not relevant to competitions, but more interesting to me:  the many features in common when comparing the musical use of 10 button accordions, whether or not they have stops or a growlbox.  Conlon and many others played similar settings on both kinds of boxes.  Then Conlon's sister Rose Murphy (among many others) used the outside row of a 2 row box (a B/C Double Ray in her case) to play in a very similar style.  Not gearing up for competition myself, I can enjoy playing away on a 1-row Busilacchio or Walters with neither growlbox nor stops, and then try the same "melodeon" settings on a Hohner 4 stop box or on a Baldoni 1-row with a coupler.

PG

* for example this box:

« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 05:14:13 PM by pgroff »
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2013, 07:29:10 PM »


Old-style melodeon is a one row with stops. I don't think the number of stops matters.
Everything else, including a one row without stops, is a button accordion.


That makes a lot of sense then, with the "one row melodeon" vs. "one row accordion" distinction. Just to be clear, are you indicating that:

1) "melodeon" is widely understood in Irish English (and "mileoidean" in Gaelic) to mean "one row with stops"?
Melodeon means a one row with stops. Strictly speaking, a Mileoidean can mean any button accordion, including a one row with stops, but it generally refers to a one row with stops.
2) The "unwritten rule" behind that Fleadh's "Melodeon" category is that it have stops
Yes.
3) There's some written rule in Comhaltas materials somewhere specifying that the Melodeon category requires stops?
That, I am not certain about. Some years back, some wise guy turned up to the Melodeon competition with a 2 row. He had one of the rows taped over! Needless to say, he was shown the door.

The net result is the same in any case, I'm pretty sure the instruments I have or am likely to own would meet that requirement in their stock form. Thanks for the clarity there.

Wow, this is very interesting!  To me, this discussion and the definition taking shape here raise a lot of questions . . . not complaints, because of course the rules of any competition are somewhat arbitrary.  If you want to compete, you figure them out and work within them.

Some closer examination of that definition . . .

1) Melodeons as defined as "a 1-row accordion with stops" could still be very heterogeneous in construction, handling, and sound.

Would all those variants that meet this definition be acceptable as suggested above? Presumably the stops have to really be stops, up there on top (rather than another type of coupler / register ).  But what about "faux stops" as seen in Quebec (and early european boxes) -- or are those banned? What if it's a 4-stop Hohner 114 but it's been rebuilt to disable the stops (as at least one restorer does in the US)?  How about if you *add* stops to a Hohner Vienna-style 1040 1-row box, with 4 bass buttons?

Boxes meeting the definition above could sound radically different, I suppose, in how many sets of reeds and the voicing (or do they have to be exactly 4 voices, no more or less, LMMH with 4 stops pulled out?).  Those reeds could differ in key (or are only C and D allowed?), in the amount of tremelo, in pitch (A 452?) and different temperaments/tunings (equal? mean? just? cajun?).  Two different notes are commonly seen as variants for button # 1 on the draw (either sol or la, for a melodeon in the key of doh), but in principle the entire scale could be tuned to a minor key, or another variant scale (gamelan 10 tone ET?) and if so the box could still meet that definition above.  In fact, is 10 buttons a requirement, and could the buttons even sound the same note on press and draw? Pre-war boxes such as Globes with zinc reeds and the triads on a single plate have a different timbre from postwar Hohners  (leaving aside their other constructional differences).  I think that spoon basses give a very different sound from button basses, even when the melodeon has a "growlbox." 

And now we get to the key point that whether the instrument has a growlbox (sometimes called a "bass box" or even "base box") has been listed as a very important criterion by some judges -- this is not part of the definition given in earlier posts in this thread.

I think most judges in Irish music competitions would agree that both a 4-stop Globe Gold Medal or a postwar Hohner 114 are "10 key melodeons" despite their differences (open vs. covered pallets, spoon vs. button basses, timbre, temperament, etc.).  Probably safest to bring one of those to the competition, or maybe a modern cajun box (Castagnari melodeon/ Max OK?).  I think a lot of previous winners have done the job with Hohners.

But there are so many other types of 1-row boxes -- some with no growlbox or stops, some with no growlbox but with couplers (possibly true stops in some cases?), and some multi-voice 1-row boxes that I always considered melodeons (e.g. some Globes and Irish-American boxes) that have a growlbox but no stops, and sometimes no couplers of any kind.*  Personally, I would speculate that if the test is to see "how much music the competitor can get out of a box that handles like a 4-stop Hohner or Globe," the growlbox might be a more important criterion than the stops.

What about use of the right thumbstrap -- compulsory?  How about the shoulder strap?  These factors really alter the mechanics of playing and may affect the resulting music too, so from a perspective of "standardizing the competition" they would seem more relevant than presence/absence of stops . . . but wouldn't either approach be allowed, just as a flute player might play with the flute on his shoulder, or on a keyed vs. keyless flute?

2) A totally different point, maybe OT and not relevant to competitions, but more interesting to me:  the many features in common when comparing the musical use of 10 button accordions, whether or not they have stops or a growlbox.  Conlon and many others played similar settings on both kinds of boxes.  Then Conlon's sister Rose Murphy (among many others) used the outside row of a 2 row box (a B/C Double Ray in her case) to play in a very similar style.  Not gearing up for competition myself, I can enjoy playing away on a 1-row Busilacchio or Walters with neither growlbox nor stops, and then try the same "melodeon" settings on a Hohner 4 stop box or on a Baldoni 1-row with a coupler.

PG

* for example this box:


Good points Paul, I was thinking the same thing about faux stops or if you have a four stop and just wanted to use MM setting to play say an air would that be ok? seems like that would be similar to a 1040 sound minus the extra bass options. And yeah what if you only have nine buttons? I assume that the rules are as with most things more of a guideline with some exceptions made.

Ps what up with the hobby horse?
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2013, 08:34:07 AM »

I was interested in reading the rules from the link which Steve Jones posted:

http://comhaltas.ie/images/press_room/Rialacha_Fleadhanna_Ceoil_Web_2010.pdf

What struck me was how fierce and proscriptive they are - many instances of thou shalt not do this, that or the other...
Obviously there needs to be some structure otherwise it would be a free-for-all and difficult to judge objectively. Having entered (and won some prizes (:) ) Northumbrian Pipers competitions at Morpeth a good few years ago now, I have some experience of having to abide by competition rules, but these Irish rules are just scary!

One set of rules which particularly caught my eye was this one for Duets and Trios:
11. Ensemble Competitions shall be held for the following: (in grades a,b,c,d)
(23)   Ceol Beirte / Díséid - A Duet shall comprise of two melody instruments. A senior duet (Grade “d”) shall comprise of two different melody instruments. Duet members must at all times play the melody of the tune.
(24)   Ceol Trír / Tríréid - A Trio shall comprise of three melody instruments. A senior trio (Grade “d”) shall comprise of at least two different melody instruments. Trio members must at all times play the melody of the tune.


Could someone please explain to me, a non-Irish musician, why duets and trios participants must play the melody only? Does even the hint of any harmony lead to a disqualification? Why? Surely the very essence of ensemble playing is to explore harmonies and harmonic variations? Why are these thought to be undesirable in Irish music?
 
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2013, 09:02:57 AM »

Happen, the younger Steve got disqualified at Morpeth too?  >:E

As (for me) this was the time of "the troubles" - another contender for any World understatement championship? - I'll recuse myself from any further discussion of "Irish" and "harmony"  ;)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 09:10:05 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2013, 09:44:01 AM »

Happen, the younger Steve got disqualified at Morpeth too?  >:E
If you mean me, no I didn't. What makes you think that?  :(
In the years which I entered, I won the beginners and the intermediate categories, and came second in the composition category.
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2013, 10:04:56 AM »


  Never doubted it Steve, hence that icon  ;)
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2013, 12:27:51 PM »

Irish music is heterophonic. It's not really built over a set of chords; instead the interest is (traditionally) derived from melodic variation. The rules are their so that all the competitors are doing the same thing and are judged in the same way. Duet and trio playing in harmony isn't traditional so it is seen as important that it isn't encouraged in traditionally focussed competition.

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2013, 01:21:44 PM »

Playing harmonies is too easy. And too cheesy. (:) What Luke said. Harmony is just not part of the tradition and art of playing Irish dance music. Foreign, and a distraction.The goal and the delight in ensemble playing in Irish music is to achieve a very tight sound, to work together to make the melody work in an exciting way.

Sometimes the instruments are so close they are almost indistinguishable - this might be what fleadh judges are looking for, I don't know.

At other times the players hover closely around the same setting of the melody but with sufficient micro-variation and distinction to create a blend that is tight and unpredictable at the same time. I was listening the other day to very good example of this effect, on a recent-ish recording by Caoimhin O Raghallaigh (fiddle), Micheal O Raghallaigh (concertina) and Catherine McEvoy (flute). No accompaniment. A simply glorious, uplifting racket - tightness and a touch of anarchy at the same time. But maybe you'd have to be seriously into Irish music to appreciate and get off on what they are doing, I don't know about that either.

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2013, 01:59:42 PM »

Thanks both, Luke and Steve, for your considered replies. Much appreciated.
I suspected that it would be as you've both stated, but it's good to have the confirmation. I'll remember the point you've both made if I ever find myself in an Irish session - an unlikely event, I have to say, but I never rule anything out entirely.

I guess the one sort of acceptable harmony would be melody over pipes drones, where the musical tension is always ebbing and flowing as a result. Powerful stuff.

I will disagree with Steve's statement that harmony is 'too easy' and 'too cheesy' although maybe I'm taking it out of the context in which it was meant. Nevertheless I'll post a lovely example from the Northumbrian tradition: two young girls playing smallpipes at the Rothbury competitions, where harmony in duet playing is encouraged, and looked for by the judges. In this clip, they play the tune through in unison first of all and then in lovely harmony second time round.

Chloe Corrigan and Jessica Lamb playing Sir Sidney Smith's March
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2013, 05:05:00 PM »

I will disagree with Steve's statement that harmony is 'too easy' and 'too cheesy' although maybe I'm taking it out of the context in which it was meant.

Correct, Steve, I was referring only to the context of playing Irish dance tunes. In saying "too easy" I am not attempting to belittle the art of harmonization and composing counter-melodies.

What I meant is that, if you aren't well and truly imbibed with the conventions of playing Irish trad dance music, adding a harmony to a tune may seem like an obvious way (i.e. an easy way) to enhance a tune and increase the listener's enjoyment. Whereas, once you are fully subscribed to the way things are done, you are more likely to respond to a harmony or countermelody as a distraction and a gimmick (hence "cheesy").

I regard mastering the art of playing Irish tunes properly as far harder than coming up with harmonies. Seriously!*

No rabid intolerance, of course. I find a bit of harmonization can be very sweet at times, depending on the tune. But it's not what judges in fleadh competitions are looking for or what trad players are aiming at.

*I would add that, if you really want to harmonize Irish dance tunes, there are pitfalls, mainly because of the gapped scales and modes. For example it's all too easy to assume that a tune is in a "minor" key when it's actually pentatonic (basically or strictly pentatonic) and to throw notes into your countermelody that are absent from the tune, thereby totally changing its character.

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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2013, 05:50:23 PM »

Quote
I was listening the other day to very good example of this effect, on a recent-ish recording by Caoimhin O Raghallaigh (fiddle), Micheal O Raghallaigh (concertina) and Catherine McEvoy (flute). No accompaniment. A simply glorious, uplifting racket - tightness and a touch of anarchy at the same time

Recording is "Comb Your Hair And Curl It"

audio samples here
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/cmcormor
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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2013, 01:50:44 AM »


For anyone considering entering the fleadh melodeon competition, this model or similar is perfectely acceptable.
I would imagine that a modified instrument or one with an altered scale or faux stops, etc, may present a problem.
If the adjudicator(s) did not notice, you may be sure that other contestants will.
A modified melodeon might (rightly or wrongly) be perceived to give an unfair advantage.
As regards other types of melodeon...you should submit those questions to Comhaltas HQ.
I, for one, would be very interested in their reply. You certainly have raised some interesting points.
I may have missed my guess, but I would say that they would prefer (maybe even insist) that contestants
stick to the "accepted standard".
Please let us know the outcome if you decide to follow it up.

Hi aradru,

I agree with you, that box shown on the cover of Mr. Connolly's brilliant recording is one version of the model I called the Hohner 114, and what I meant when mentioning that a lot of winners have used a Hohner.  Various versions of that model have been around since WW2.

& I agree it would be a good idea for the OP to check in with the actual adjudicators if in doubt about their rules!

The rest of my post was mostly random musings. :-)

PG





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Re: Rules/customs for melodeon (mileoidean) at the Fleadh?
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 09:30:59 AM »

Aradru: thanks for that, it has been puzzling me for a long time. Both quotes appeal immensely.... if I knew the way to pronounce I would steal them......better go before I get a slap for being off post.... ;)
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