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Author Topic: What am I playing??  (Read 7578 times)

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Sandy

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What am I playing??
« on: January 10, 2009, 05:05:51 PM »

After four years of playing I have quite a few tunes, mainly learnt after trawling youtube and myspace. However I am not totally sure what defines the tune type exactly. i.e polka, hornpipes, jigs, reels etc. I appreciate that different rhythms are involved but wondered if there was a resource (on the net) to look at this in more detail.  ???

cheers

Sandy.

Graham Collicutt

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 05:18:17 PM »

One that I've read several times :-  http://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/

Graham
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Pete Dunk

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 05:30:33 PM »

That's a good question Sandy and I for one will be following up any info/links given here. I find the definition of a hornpipe quite baffling to be honest because it can be played 'straight' without the dotted rhythm - but isn't that a reel? What makes a reel into a rant?

I've asked a similar question elsewhere without much in the way of answers I'm afraid.

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 08:53:29 PM »

I can identify the jigs, reels, polkas and hornpipes - more or less  :).  The figures tend to be in multiples of 8 or 16,  I usually work with the caller to determin wht form (jig or reel) and what length he requires, then we go through appropriate (or otherwise) tunes.

There is usually a preferred head tune (first tune) for a particular dance set, so with practice, you can identify "tunes like..."

The big problem that I have (and I suspect a lot of musicians) is that i have no memory for names, and different sets of musicians have differnt names for the same tune, and even the same name for different tunes.  If you are playing chordal accompaniment rather than lead, you get to recognise the form and pick up the key pretty rapidly.
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Martin J

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 10:34:17 PM »

Here's the most simple ones

3/4  Waltz
6/8 Jig
4/4 Reel.  Also known as common time, used for quite a lot of other things ie. Hornpipe
Hornpipe.  Usually dotted.  The emphasis is on the the third note in the bar.  Just imagine someone doing a hornpipe step.
Earlier post accurate, no dots could be a reel, a polka etc.
2/4 or 4/4 March
9/8  Slip Jig
If there is no timing then it is assumed to be in 4/4

There are lots more but this is a start.
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risto

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 10:40:39 PM »


Hornpipe.  Usually dotted. 

What can be confusing is that when HPs are notated they may be written out straight, ie. no dots shown so they look like reels. The writer assumes one knows what a Hornpipe is and how it is supposed to be played. I think the best way to learn to recognise these and the tempos used is to get good records and listen a lot.
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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 11:02:01 PM »

1) I always define a Schottische as a slow hornpipe, danced with a swagger (have I spelled it rightly though?).

2) You can generally tell a hornpipe (but you can't tell it much!) by the fact that you can usually sing "and he played his ukelele when the ship went down" to the last few bars (this is serious comment -try it!).

:)

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TomB-R

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2009, 12:54:55 AM »

What can be confusing is that when HPs are notated they may be written out straight, ie. no dots shown so they look like reels.
Fair enough, though this doesn't mean that there aren't "undotted" hornpipes.  (Hornpipes are actually more "tripletty" than "dotted" of course, but we all know that anyway.)
I think the term "clog hornpipe" was sometimes used to distinguish "dotted" ones.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 10:12:40 AM »

Here's an example of a hornpipe that isn't played dotted, taken from Alistair Anderson's CD and tutor book set 'Concertina Workshop' (the annotations above the music at the beginning is to do with English concertina fingering). Alistair plays it straight as per the first abc file.

X:1
T:Joe Burke's Hornpipe
Z: Peter Dunk December 2008
S: Alistair Anderson's Concertina Workshop
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=140
K:G
(3DEF | GAGE D"R2"G," R3"B,"R1"D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB {AB}A2 GA | BAGF E2 (3DEF |
GAGE DG,B,D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB A2 GA | BGGF G2 :|
Bc | d^cde dBGD | GBd^c dBgf | efge dBGA | BAA^G ADEF |
GAGE DG,B,D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB {AB}A2 GA | BGGF G2 :|

Add the field 'R:hornpipe' into the header and you get something very different when played back as a midi in one of the online converters:

X:1
T:Joe Burke's Hornpipe
Z: Peter Dunk December 2008
S: Alistair Anderson's Concertina Workshop
R:hornpipe
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=140
K:G
(3DEF | GAGE D"R2"G," R3"B,"R1"D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB {AB}A2 GA | BAGF E2 (3DEF |
GAGE DG,B,D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB A2 GA | BGGF G2 :|
Bc | d^cde dBGD | GBd^c dBgf | efge dBGA | BAA^G ADEF |
GAGE DG,B,D | GFGA Bdgf | edcB {AB}A2 GA | BGGF G2 :|
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Pete Dunk

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 10:28:32 AM »

As a further example of 'hornpiping' a tune, here's something I found in a tune book which gave no indication of the required rhythm so I naturally assumed it was a reel and wasn't to impressed with the tune; sometime later I gave it a go as a hornpipe and loved it at once.

X:1
T:Alistair Anderson's Fancy
C:Will Atkinson
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=150
R:Hornpipe
Z:Peter Dunk
K:G
(3DEF | G>BF>G E>GD>C | B,>DG>B c>ed>c | B>GD>G B>dc>B | A>GF>G A>cB>A |
G>BF>G E>GD>C | B,>DG>B c>ed>c | B>gf>e d>BA>c | B2G2G2 :|
F>G | A>cF>A D>FA>c | B>dG>B D>GB>d | c>eA>c B>dG>B | A>GF>E D>GF>G |
A>cF>A D>FA>c | B>dG>B D>GB>d | c>eg>e d>BA>c | B2G2G2 :|
F>G | A>cF>A D>FA>c | B>dG>B D>GB>d | c>eA>c B>dG>B | A>gf>e d>cB>A |
G>BF>G E>GD>C | B,>DG>B c>ed>c | B>gf>e d>BA>c |1B2G2G2 :|2B2G2G3 |

Now listen to it 'straight' and you might agree with me that it becomes an also ran.

X:1
T:Alistair Anderson's Fancy
C:Will Atkinson
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=150
Z:Peter Dunk
K:G
(3DEF | GBFG EGDC | B,DGB cedc | BGDG BdcB | AGFG AcBA |
GBFG EGDC | B,DGB cedc | Bgfe dBAc | B2G2G2 :|
FG | AcFA DFAc | BdGB DGBd | ceAc BdGB | AGFE DGFG |
AcFA DFAc | BdGB DGBd | cege dBAc | B2G2G2 :|
FG | AcFA DFAc | BdGB DGBd | ceAc BdGB | Agfe dcBA |
GBFG EGDC | B,DGB cedc | Bgfe dBAc |1B2G2G2 :|2B2G2G3 |
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george garside

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 12:40:56 PM »

many 4/4 tunes can be played as reels , hornpipes, polkas, strathspeys, marches etc etc by aadjusting the length of notes on the hoof.  Avid dot readers would of course require the music to be written differently for each.  Mallys absolute beginners book  provides a good example of this in that he  sets out the dots for the keel row correctly written as a hornpipe, a reel and a march.

A simple approach to 'hornpiping' a tune  is to learn just one or two hornpipes  thoroughly.  To then play a new(to you) tune as a hornpipe you first play one of the ones you have thoroughly learned and ,without pause, continue into the 'new' tune being careful to continue to tap you foot at exactly the same rate of knots.  The two tunes should fit seemlessly together or at least htis is what you are aiming to achieve. 

You can also use this technique to turn 4/4s int 3/4s  eg the rowan tree as a 4/4 march or as a waltz. same with loch lomond  - as an interesting exercise winster gallop can be turned into a waltz on the hoof by  preceeding it with a well known waltz .

This way is much quiker and simpler than worrying about how the should be rearranged.

george
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Howard Jones

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 06:49:19 PM »

There was a similar discussion recently on Mudcat.  Hornpipes are slippery things to pin down, sometimes they are played strongly dotted, sometimes hardly dotted at all, although even then they are usually played with a bit of swing.  Irish, Scottish and English hornpipes are all have their own character, and then there are regional variations within each country.

The time signature tells only part of the story, you have to listen to the internal rhythms to decide whether it's a reel or a hornpipe.  Then there are 3/2 hornpipes, which are something else entirely!

The only way to really understand dance music and rhythms is to do some dancing.  Once you understand how the dances work you'll begin to understand what music they need, and how it needs to be played.

Sandy

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 09:31:44 AM »

Thank you for all the useful info.
Think I had a dotted issue on the hornpipes which has been answered.
Sometimes though, (for me) I think maybe it's better just to play, go with the feel, and not think!!

cheers

Sandy
 :)

joe

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 09:47:35 AM »

Sportsmans Hornpipe is one I hear that is often played 'straight' or undotted or however you put it, played like this is awful, put some swing in the tune and it sounds completely different, and fantastic with it!
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george garside

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 10:14:00 AM »

[
Sometimes though, (for me) I think maybe it's better just to play, go with the feel, and not think!!

cheers

Sandy
 :)

[/quote

totally agree!

george
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Theo

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2009, 11:00:48 AM »

Absolutely agree with George.  The whole business of what is the difference between a reel/rant/polka/march/schottische/hornpipe is quite fluid.  It varies between different traditions, and for different dances.  Some tunes have the "wrong" type in the name.  Our band played with a different caller recently and for one dance she asked for "polkas"  so I played a bit of a tune I think of as a polka and she said no more like this and diddled the rhythm to me, so we played a set of dotted hornpipes which worked perfectly for that dance.

It also depends a lot on how you play the tune.  You can have hours of fun taking a tune you know well and playing it in as many different rhythms as you can.  If you start with something fairly straightforward like Jamie Allan or Winster Gallop (which I think of as a polka type) you can also play them as a jig, waltz, hornpipe etc. It may make your brain hurt for a while, but once you can do it you will have a good understanding of the different rhythms.
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risto

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2009, 11:27:13 PM »

...The whole business of what is the difference between a reel/rant/polka/march/schottische/hornpipe is quite fluid.  ...

But knowing the differences doesn't harm and gives you a small chance to aim at least in the right direction.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 11:53:44 PM by risto »
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george garside

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 11:16:38 AM »

...The whole business of what is the difference between a reel/rant/polka/march/schottische/hornpipe is quite fluid.  ...

But knowing the differences doesn't harm and gives you a small chance to aim at least in the right direction.  ;)

It may be one thing playing,say, a hornpipe for an audience of listeners or for that matter at home  in which case playing exactly as the dots suggest will probably be reasonably ok.  HOwever if playing in a session  one should follow whoever starts playing a 'hornpipe' (or whatever) even if you think its a schottische (or whatever!).  The fluidity & sublety comes when playing dance tunes for dancing!  In some ways it doesn't matter what you would categorise a tune as  provided the dancers are happy with it & this is where playing to the feet of the best dancer in the hall/ team/etc comes in as one dancer(s) perception of eg a hornpipe may be different to yours and to that of other dance teams.  As an example I was standing in as musician for a clog step team  . This was a one off job & I haad never seen the team or their dancing previously.  They asked for a hornpipe as this was what their regular musician provided - I went through several well known horpipes  & got glum faces.   (and yes I was playing them as 'proper' hornpipes)   Eventually I tried brochan lom played as a schottische  & smiles all round.  Obviously their regualr musician had been fluidly moving his hornpipe(s) in the subtle direction of schottishes.   I also find that sometimes the only way to get the music right for some dance teams/individuals is to ask them to dance part of a dance without music so I can synchronise my tapping foot with theirs  & then find a tune that fits. The jobs definately requires   listening skills   and the fluidity to make small adjustments on the hoof  rather than trying to tie things up with musical theory or knowledge

george

george
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Mike Gott

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 01:34:12 PM »

42 years after first picking up a melodeon I still don't know my jigs from my reels and polkas. I usually end up asking somebody else if I need to know....... :-[

Mike
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Martin J

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Re: What am I playing??
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 02:33:20 PM »

Hornpipes, Schottishes' etc do seem to be dominating the topic.  Whilst I agree totally that two tunes, both called hornpipes, can be totally different to the extent that one will fit the dance whilst the other does not.  Nottingham Swing for instance, requires a very specific structure.  Some of the other time signatures however are easier to identify.

Jigs - can you clap one, 1,2,3,1,2,3 in each bar.  If it's 1,2,3 every bar then it's a waltz.
If you can do 1,2,3 three times in a bar then it's a slip jig.
If you clap four times then it's in 4/4 and can be one of several things.
If you are not sure of what a bar is then watch a full movement of the dance.
In almost every case (there are exceptions) it spans 8 bars.

If in doubt ask someone who knows to play and you clap to it to find the rhythm and the bar ends.
Just a couple of these will leave it clear in your mind.
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