Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: More base woe, advice please  (Read 10517 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

press on regardless

  • Guest
More base woe, advice please
« on: November 26, 2007, 05:31:30 PM »


I'm 2 years into learning to play from scratch and have spent some time looking at where to go next. Problem is the basses, I just can't get my right and left hand to work independently. I am playing some kind of bass accompaniment but all I am doing in reality is stabbing away at the basses when it sounds right to do so in the tune. I have started to find the base that best harmonises and cross rows a bit but there is no way I can keep up a steady rythym with the left hand independently of the melody. In truth I am no nearer doing this than I was 2 years ago and I dont think my brain will ever cope with it. I could no more start the bass rythym then join in with the melody than fly in the air.
When I play like this I can make what to me and is a pleasing sound, I can draw bass notes out here and there etc but its become very frustrating.
I go to lots of sessions and thoroughly enjoy them without offending anyone and non musicians also seem to enjoy my playing but where do I go next? Are there other people stuck playing in this limited way? Are there any very basic exercises to try and divorce left and right hands? Or is this something some people have and others haven't. I am strongly left handed but so are loads of really good players so that can't be it. 
Any suggestions welcome please.   
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 07:06:00 PM »

It seems to be divided about 50-50 betweeen those who have little or no problem with the bass & those who do.  At the risk of promoting the dreaded UM PA UM PA approach  many people find keeping time with the foot definately helps as synchonising the bass strikes with the foot movement gives a steady rhythm in which to do the UM Pa's i.e. foot down UM (bass note) and foot up PA (CHord).  similarly with waltz foot down = UM  foot  UP UP = PA PA.  This is not a bad way to get started & once done th;e left hand will opperate separately from the right which will enable you to put some vriety into the bass by eg holding a bass note whilst playing several treble notes (a drone in effect)   - just playing the PA'a (i.e. chords) without the UM's  or leaving the bass off altogether whilst continuing with the melody.  All of thesee can be interspersed with some um pa ing  from time to time. Also get into the habit of tapping feet when listening to  the music of others.

The other approach is to  use the bass more for added harmony than rhythm  by playing harmonising bass notes  of more or less the same length as one or a group of treble notes. 

Any or all of the aforementioned can of course be used  from time to time in the same tune.   

Don't forget though that the inherent rhythm must come from the treble (melody) end & that no amount of arty farty bass playing will compensate for lack of rhythm in the way the tune is played.

hope this of some help.

george
 
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

press on regardless

  • Guest
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 08:06:06 PM »


Thanks George, that helps a lot. It actually took me 12 months before I could tap my foot steadily and not following the melody. Now its blindingly obvious, what I need is is a base drum for me left foot.
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13727
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 11:24:25 PM »

I think most people find that getting the two hands to work fluently together is something that takes a lot of work.  The best advice I can give is to take a small section of music, maybe one very simple tune, or perhaps just an A part, and then:

1 thoroughly learn the tune on the right hand only,
2 learn a left hand part without playing the tune at the  same time
3 then put the two parts together.

Obviously for "2" you need to choose a bass part that has the same pattern of pushes and pulls as the tune.  If it all falls apart when you go from 2 to 3 try singing the tune while you play the bass part, or if you have a someone willing to help get them to play the tune (could be on any instrument) while you play the bass part.

The whole point of this approach is to separate out three distinct things you have to learn, and as far as possible to master the first two before getting to the third.

If you can do this for one tune then the process will be easier on the next, but really concentrate on getting it right on one tune first.  Another useful exercise to move on to is to play the first tune with a different bass part.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

risto

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 12:06:31 AM »

You have the same problem when you start to play the piano.

From the little I have taken piano lessons, it helps a lot that you have both the bass and treble parts written down so that you can visualize where to play the basses and chords. One thing that might help is to use this same approach and write the basses and chords above the notation in the right places (EDIT: on the beats) and then start very slowly and just keep on repeating until it starts to go. This would also require some planning for the basses which could be a good thing too. Eventhough you perhaps don't do dots, you can use the printed version of the tune as a rhythmic quide.

EDIT: By using fixed font you could use the abc syntax as well, and write the chords above the rows.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 12:38:21 AM by risto »
Logged
Paolo Soprani 5-row, Roland FR1B-digital CBA button accordion. Guitar, 5-string OT banjo, mandolin, piano...
My one man band recording: https://apari.fi/Bonaparte_Crossing_The_Rhine_Risto.mp3

Jamie Robertson

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50
  • C/F Pokerwork, A/D Venezia, B/C Double Ray DeLuxe,
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 04:43:34 AM »

I can sympathize with Press On.  I've had my box 2 weeks this coming Wed., and I've finally got it tweaked to where I can get some more musical sounds out of 'er without physical pain. 

I'm using Dave Mallinson's D/G Melodeon for Absolute Beginners, and I'm fighting with co-ordinating the bass rhythm and the melody.  I find I'll take one measure of music, or two, and slow it down, and paly it a dozen times slowly until the rhythm stops fighting with my preconceived inclinations of how to use my fingers.  Then, when I get the offending bit worked out, I go back a bit, and sneak up on it , and hope it doesn't notice.

Keep a couple of things in mind, before you start beating yourself up:
1.  If you can play it slowly, you can eventually play it fast.  If you can't play it slowly, you'll never play it fast.
2.  Playing an instrument where the two hands are doing different things at the same time is like rubbing your tummy and patting your head simultaneously.  You have to get at least one of them to a state where you don't have to tie up your conscious mind with it.  Sort of put it on automatic, and press on (sic).
3.  When all else fails, practice some more. 

Once again, I find the Mally book very encouraging, even though it's not written for the key box I have.  I just pretend it is, and play in C/F as if it were D/G.  My only problem will be when I forget what key I'm actually in while playing with others.  Keep it up.  Play through the plateaus that we all hit.
Logged
Music is the Best.  Frank Zappa.

Fi

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
  • A Saltarelle Connemara II and a few Hohners...
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 09:13:09 AM »

Then, when I get the offending bit worked out, I go back a bit, and sneak up on it , and hope it doesn't notice...

Jamie, that made me smile  :) That's exactly the though process I went through  "perhaps if I pretend I'm really not bothered it'll 'play by itself' " and it's maybe a way of not, as you say, tying up your concious mind with one of the things you are doing.

I managed to get my basses going quite soon after starting to play (but it was the dreaded Um pah) however when I started to try and make the bass accompaniment a bit less dull, I found it really difficult and came up against the doing two things simultaneously problem. It's not necessarily easy to get through but it can be got through. I can't really add to the good advice given already - BTW I found playing a bass line on its own is a bit wierd at first but it really does work in getting it into your fingers.

Practice practice I suppose!

Logged

Mike Gott

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 285
  • Melodeon and hairy arm
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 10:32:04 AM »

Like Fee says, practice, practice. It will come together eventually - and make sure that you leave your melodeon out somewhere where you can pick it up quickly and easily so if you suddenly feel the urge to have a quick play it's ready there for you. Sounds daft, but having it around encourages you to pick it up and play it more!

Mike
Logged
"Traditional music was for entertainment, it wasn't for a further education class" (Bob Davenport)

Rivington Morris, Bolton, Lancashire.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 10:40:03 AM »

The point made about doing it slowly at first is spot on.  However it is sometimes easier to choose a slower tune  so that you can play it at something approaching its correct speed  ( so it sounds as it should) rather than drastically slowing down a faster tune.   Waltzes  are very useful to introduce the bass end of the box  & bass can be either um pa pa  or chords held for perhaps whole bars of melody.
Try the firstr4 bars of 'daisy daisy'  .  on 21 button boxtreble play down buttons  8765 on inside row All PUSh!.  Bass G/D bass & chord buttons only playing a complete um pa pa  for each  treble note.  Forget the rest of the tune until you can do the first 4 notes with um pa pa's.  Then try the next 4 bars  playing C bass note & chord together for each bar ( but momentaily releasing between bars)  then g/d bass & chord for 5th bar.

when you cn do this ok - and it may take some time! try  the rest of the tune & then perhaps a slow march.

the whole idea of this is to programme the brain to do   different things with each hand  & the more boringly repetitious  the better the programming`!

if it doesn't come naturally then boring is the only way to lay a good foundation.  A big mistake in the early stages of playing is to
1. constantly want to learn another tune - but none well!
2. try to play faster than you can
3. try to do both the above with bass!

once you have separated the function of the hands  concentrate on lightening your touch on the bass i.e. touch the buttons as if red hot, particularly when using the bass to drive the rhythm.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

press on regardless

  • Guest
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 06:32:15 PM »


Many thanks to all for these suggestions, I've got so much to try out now.

Actually i've just tried recording a couple of tunes and playing them back, and joy! It seems that I am holding a steady rhythm in the simpler parts of the tune without really realising it, which must be a good sign, then dropping out and improvising through the more difficult bits.

I've always found it easier to play standing up and I know this might sound ridiculous but I find it helps to play looking hard over my right shoulder.  My left hand is quite offended by being ignored like this and will hopefully develop an independent cussed streak.

Anyway I feel completely inspired again thanks to you lot!   
Logged

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 12:58:06 PM »

Try the firstr4 bars of 'daisy daisy'  .  on 21 button boxtreble play down buttons  8765 on inside row All PUSh!.  Bass G/D bass & chord buttons only playing a complete um pa pa  for each  treble note.  Forget the rest of the tune until you can do the first 4 notes with um pa pa's.  Then try the next 4 bars  playing C bass note & chord together for each bar ( but momentaily releasing between bars)  then g/d bass & chord for 5th bar.

George,

I appreciate this is an older topic but it relates exactly to my problem, that is, learning to play bass and chords which we have discussed before. I tend not to worry about it when in company and simply concentrate on the rythm side as there are normally enough musicians playing along with me that I feel bass isn't really necessary, however when playing solo I feel a 'little' um pa pa is required.
 
Your comment on Daisy Daisy caught my eye as I can play that 'fairly fluently' with my right hand, so this would be a good tune with which to follow your instructions. However as discussed before, mines a BC Box, Therefore I play 76'5'3, no problem there but the bass/chords? Am I correct in playing 433 - g Bass followed by G Chord twice all during  note 1 therefore achieving the um pa pa? If so, what about note 3?  I assume I am to still play 211 - g Bass followed by G chord twice.

Could you please confirm or correct me before I stray too far?

Many Thanks

Skipy



Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 03:19:17 PM »

Try the firstr4 bars of 'daisy daisy'  .  on 21 button boxtreble play down buttons  8765 on inside row All PUSh!.  Bass G/D bass & chord buttons only playing a complete um pa pa  for each  treble note.  Forget the rest of the tune until you can do the first 4 notes with um pa pa's.  Then try the next 4 bars  playing C bass note & chord together for each bar ( but momentaily releasing between bars)  then g/d bass & chord for 5th bar.

George,

I appreciate this is an older topic but it relates exactly to my problem, that is, learning to play bass and chords which we have discussed before. I tend not to worry about it when in company and simply concentrate on the rythm side as there are normally enough musicians playing along with me that I feel bass isn't really necessary, however when playing solo I feel a 'little' um pa pa is required.
 
Your comment on Daisy Daisy caught my eye as I can play that 'fairly fluently' with my right hand, so this would be a good tune with which to follow your instructions. However as discussed before, mines a BC Box, Therefore I play 76'5'3, no problem there but the bass/chords? Am I correct in playing 433 - g Bass followed by G Chord twice all during  note 1 therefore achieving the um pa pa? If so, what about note 3?  I assume I am to still play 211 - g Bass followed by G chord twice.

Could you please confirm or correct me before I stray too far?

Many Thanks

Skipy




 Skipy

'I presume you mean 76'5'4 which  on a 23 button BC box will be in key of F.there are various bass layouts on BC boxes & without knowing yours can't advise on what to do on that end  if anything.  You may  have more scope for bass playing it in G  8'7'64'5 - b row 5 - back to c row 6 etc.  If you post your bass layout I will try to suggest what is possible.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 05:05:32 PM »

Sorry George, I must have assumed you could read my mind, it's like me saying where is 3rd gear on 'a' car?
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes, I am playing it in the key of G, hence the first bar is DBGD or (counting from the top) 76'5'3 ('5' signifying push).

Hoping this now makes more sense?

Many Thanks

Skipy

Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 06:32:54 PM »

Sorry George, I must have assumed you could read my mind, it's like me saying where is 3rd gear on 'a' car?
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes, I am playing it in the key of G, hence the first bar is DBGD or (counting from the top) 76'5'3 ('5' signifying push).

Hoping this now makes more sense?

Many Thanks

Skipy


Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 06:48:29 PM »

Yes! I was assuming ' after a numbermeant push rather than a number between '   '  meaning push.

The following provides a feasable bass accompanyment, however start by just playing a continuous chord rather than um pa as it is easier this way to get the hang of changing bass notes in right places. Next try um pa where  it will fit with 3 treble notes & just  play a continous bass/chord where it gete tricky.  Also bear in mind that leaving a group of notes without any bass is in itself a very efective bit of ornementation.  I have followd your system using  '   to denote push. 

top line = treble notes (I think they are correect  but have worked this out quickly direct on a box), the lower line = bass  ( either bass note, chord or um pa to yur choice. 

DBGD   EF#GEGD  ADBG   EFG ABA  BDC   BDBAG   ETC ETC

 G G'G  C'       G   D  GG'  C'    D     G  -   G    CG

hope this helps

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

risto

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 01:15:53 AM »

Quote
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes,

Are you sure? mine is this one:

http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21tradbass.gif

PS. For Oldclub II: I think I sent you a wrong link to my bass configuration some time back, this traditional bass is the right one.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 01:18:01 AM by risto »
Logged
Paolo Soprani 5-row, Roland FR1B-digital CBA button accordion. Guitar, 5-string OT banjo, mandolin, piano...
My one man band recording: https://apari.fi/Bonaparte_Crossing_The_Rhine_Risto.mp3

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 11:14:24 PM »

Thanks George, It's starting to make more sense now! It seems to be down to selecting an occassional accompanying Bass/Chord that 'sounds right' and my daughters are quick (very quick!) to tell me when I pick the wrong Bass/Chord.

The other tune I am now practicing the left hand with is Roddy MacCorley (also the same tune as Sean South) from David Hanrahan's The Box which I notice shows the Chords and Basses. This also sounds so  much more lively and full when played with both hands and I am finding after a while that it just sounds and feels right!

So until I hit another stumbling block....

Many thanks again

Skipy

PS, Am I the only learner/player who gets female grief when still practicing after 11pm?
Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2008, 11:38:27 PM »

Quote
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes,

Are you sure? mine is this one:

http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21tradbass.gif

Well, to be honest, up until yesterday I had the same layout printed out as you (traditional Bass) but when George asked me to post the layout, I noticed there was also a Modern Bass Layout. The only reason I assume mine is the  Modern layout is because on my box, my top D Chord ~ button 2 (as you face the box) is the same as D Chord ~  button 5 and d Bass ~ button 4 is the same as d Bass ~ button 7. Whereas this is not the case on the traditional layout is it? or am I doing something wrong?

Cheers

Skipy
Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

risto

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 01:53:57 AM »

Quote
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes,

Are you sure? mine is this one:

http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21tradbass.gif

Well, to be honest, up until yesterday I had the same layout printed out as you (traditional Bass)

Cheers

Skipy

To be honest I didn't quite get what you meant but the difference between the trad and modern bass is that in the trad layout there is no D chord or bass on the inside row. You can easily check this by playing the lowest buttons (push) on both the inside and outside rows. If they sound the same (C) then its trad layout.
Logged
Paolo Soprani 5-row, Roland FR1B-digital CBA button accordion. Guitar, 5-string OT banjo, mandolin, piano...
My one man band recording: https://apari.fi/Bonaparte_Crossing_The_Rhine_Risto.mp3

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: More base woe, advice please
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 08:50:53 AM »

Quote
My box is a Hohner Morgane 21 button B/C and I am pretty sure the layout is as shown here http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21modernbass.gif and Yes,

Are you sure? mine is this one:

http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC21tradbass.gif

Well, to be honest, up until yesterday I had the same layout printed out as you (traditional Bass)

Cheers

Skipy
You can easily check this by playing the lowest buttons (push) on both the inside and outside rows. If they sound the same (C) then its trad layout.


Following your instructions I am now even more sure that mine is a Modern Bass Layout, the inside lowest row is lower than the outside row, I would suggest d,c. Not c,c. I also notice that for the next row up, the Chords are D,C. Not C,C.

Spooky!

I bought this Box last Easter in Killarney, Ireland, may that location explain the layout?

Skipy
Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal