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Bob Ellis

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My ideal box
« on: June 05, 2013, 02:23:14 PM »

As those who have read my earlier ramblings on this subject will be aware, I have been trying for some time to design my ultimate melodeon (i.e. one that does just about everything that I want a melodeon to do). The first stage was to devise a modified layout of notes under each button (see the Home Page under Three Row Keyboard Layouts). Having used this system for several years, I am very happy with the layout of the melody end, but I think the bass layout could improve. I made a step forward when building an instrument with 14 bass buttons on Emmanuel Pariselle's course in 2011, but I now think that a 16 or 18 bass system is the way to go (see attachment).

However, I have two worries. With 2 rows of 8 buttons, I wonder how easy it would be to move from one end of the row to the other (I use all four fingers on the basses - a recent and successful change to my playing style). With 3 rows of 6 buttons, I wonder how easy it would be to reach the inside row. Any thoughts or experiences people have would be most welcome.

Ideally, I would like to build the instrument myself, but the investment in additional machinery would be prohibitive at the moment because I have spent all my spare cash on a motorhome. So I will probably be looking at someone to make it for me. Marc Serafini springs to mind as someone whom I believe will custom-build instruments to clients' specifications. Can anyone recommend any other manufacturer I ought to consider?
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Idelone

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 03:42:24 PM »

Hi, Bob, you can post but you can't hide !

I have reasonably small hands but like you I use all four fingers on the bass. I have only recently started to use the top bass rows, nothing in my repertoire required their use, so I'm using them in practise. To have a further set of buttons further up, to my mind would require far too much movement. But, wait for it, on my FR-18 I have an 18 bass layout, which oddly enough is quite manageable. So the choice for me would be obvious, plus you get the bonus of another couple of notes.

I'm still driving round by the way.  ;)

Ian
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Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 05:34:20 PM »

Guillard and Van der Aa are happy to make up your design and the Dutchman doesn't charge extra. Incidentally you'd be hard pressed to improve on the 18 bass that came from Grenoble and is now fairly standard on big boxes south of Dijon. All basses both ways is great and I keep finding keys where the chords sort of "work well".

I believe that to get the reeds in you at limited to  12 chords + 6 other basses/reversals, and these only as 2 noters (so called 5's).  Guiallrd manages a true 16 button = 16 3-note chord left end on his sapphire.  See web sites  :|glug
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Chris Brimley

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 05:47:08 PM »

Bob, the clever thing about the 14 bass layout is that you can reach all the buttons without hand position adjustment - I use mainly first and second fingers for 1-12, and pinky for the bass notes on my 13 and 14. So with my style of playing I think of centralising over the D push buttons, and moving to either side.  I would have some difficulty with a 16 button layout, because it would mean moving the whole hand if playing with 1st and 2nd, with unpredictable results.  I've only once tried an 18 bass layout, but I've always felt it wouldn't be so bad reaching the inner row, so if others who do play them agree with that, I think this might be the optimum for me - but too late for me to change.

I also think you need to concentrate on that third row on the RHS, which needs accidentals and reversals to allow more harmonies with the LHS, and to improve ease of playing.  I wouldn't find just 5 or 6 buttons enough in an ideal box, though it would be a possible first area of compromise if you wanted a cheaper box.

However I would suggest there is a more fundamental issue - box design depends crucially on what you want if for.  My goal has always been flexibility to play pretty much whatever tune I want in the two main keys and related minors, with full LH accompaniment.  If I wanted to play in other keys, I would want another box (and that really has to be my next purchase!).  Others might prefer the possibility of more keys on the same box, which would change the design fundamentally - you'd gain more keys, but lose the opportunity of playing smoothly in the main keys as easily as you might like.  And still others might prefer a lighter box with fewer buttons anyway.  Now I have to say I've never found weight as big an issue as others seem to - it doesn't hamper speed very much, and you can compensate with note reversals so effectively that you can more than make up for it.

For me, my boxes have to be compatible in design - as I lead the music in our dance band the thought of a broken spring has always been a nightmare, so I had to have one box as a near identical spare.  This didn't work out to be as redundant for me as I had originally feared, because their sounds are very different.  It would give me some useful variety if I were to get new keys, and this would be good for our band - say a C/F or maybe E/A.  I can't see me getting two more, though, so they'll always have to be occasional.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 05:53:24 PM »

Forgot to mention, I think there's a technical issue with third removals on a 14 bass box, because of the way the gate works, though there must be some kind of fix I would have thought.  IMO it's not a problem, because I don't tend to use the thirds much.  Slightly more of a problem for me is that the low bass cut (which I have on one of my boxes) doesn't work on buttons 13 and 14, for the same reason.  This is difficult if you want to sing with the box.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 08:22:38 PM »

Thanks very much for the replies so far.

Idelone: I also have small hands, so your comment about your F-18 is reassuring. I am definitely veering towards the 18 bass layout, although I would need to try one before committing myself. By the way, you can stop driving around for now, Ian: it's a long way from Yorkshire to Surrey and I don't have the time to sort you out just at the moment.  >:E

Chris R: I have had a quick look at the Gaillard and Van der Aa websites following your suggestion. I like the look of the Gaillard boxes and what he says about his craftsmanship and the quality of the components he uses. He is a definite contender for my custom - and Nantes is easier to reach with my motorhome than Toulouse! From what I hear, Van der Aa boxes are also made to a high standard, but I prefer natural wood to the mixture of materials he appears to favour. I take your point about the Grenoble 18-bass system, but I want my box to reflect and expand on the layout of my 14-bass Pariselle. To adopt a different system would be to court disaster when I switch between instruments.   :-[

Chris B: I agree with you about being able to reach all the buttons on the 14-bass layout, but I would like to have the chords as well as the fundamentals for the C# and G# basses and the reversals. I share your reservations about a 16-bass system, which is one of the reasons why I am veering towards an 18-bass system, provided I can satisfy myself of the ease of reaching the inside row. As regards the third row on the RHS, I have used this extensively on two of my present boxes and on one I have now sold. It enables me to play comfortably in the keys of C, Am, Dm and Gm, which, together with the usual G, D, Em and Bm, crop up regularly in the kind of music I play, so I am not inclined to alter my RHS layout unless someone suggests an improvement that has not occurred to me. In any case, there are seven buttons on the inside row, not the five or six you mentioned.

Further opinions, comments and suggestions would be most welcome. I want to make sure I have covered every angle before parting with my hard-earned groats.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

JohnA

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 08:53:42 PM »

Hi Bob
I have the 18 bass version of the Castagnari Benny (Big-18), my hands are not large and I have no trouble reaching the inside row. I live in Ilkley and I am in the Dales on a regular basis. If it would help to try it it out for size pm me - I'm sure we could arrange a rendezvous. It's an ADG.
Cheers
John
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Idelone

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 09:04:46 PM »

Bob, Thanks, but just in case your trying to lull me into a false sense of security, you had better know that we're in a neighbourhood watch scheme. Now you're worried !

Seriously though, my G/C Maugein has the Corgeron/Heim layout with 12/11/10 treble buttons and 12 bass buttons, which is fine up to a point but I find I could always do with more reversals; where are those A, F, and F#'s when you need them. I guess all layouts are a compromise on the ideal, but I think it might be a good idea to check over some of your material to see what you really need before you commit yourself. I hate to say this to you but my plan is to use the FR-18 to experiment with layouts on the treble side, to find the optimum one for me, and then have my proper box altered. I suppose the same comments are good for the bass side as well.

I have attached, hopefully, a layout so you can see the drawbacks of my layout, although it is a G/C system, so you will have to do the transpositions in your head.
The file size is too large so I will try and send it later.

Always looking over my shoulder, Ian

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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 09:13:43 PM »

Hi Bob
I have the 18 bass version of the Castagnari Benny (Big-18), my hands are not large and I have no trouble reaching the inside row. I live in Ilkley and I am in the Dales on a regular basis. If it would help to try it it out for size pm me - I'm sure we could arrange a rendezvous. It's an ADG.
Cheers
John

Thanks, John. That's a very generous offer. I'll PM you later this evening or tomorrow, as I have just been summoned by she who must be obeyed.

Ian: I look forward to seeing your layout.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Brimley

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 12:11:49 PM »

Sorry Bob, I think I misunderstood you earlier, I know you play long 3-row boxes, but I originally wrongly thought you were basing your thoughts on the Pariselle models, which I think were mainly 5 buttons on the inside row?  I do agree with you on the LHS that 18 is probably a better idea than 16, and I would have gone for that had they been around at the time.  Just looking at the way the hand moves, it appears that getting to the inner row on the LH side should not be a problem, and certainly players I've seen do not seem to find it a difficulty.  I've wondered whether there might be a better design for the LH palm position, with perhaps a raised bar  near the thumb joint so that you could pivot over it more easily, and reach further in.  I've noticed that most of the pressure comes from the ball of the hand, which may not be located as centrally as one would like.

On the keys, yes, I also play in the other 4 you mention, but my point was that I was thinking in terms of some players wanting to extend the range a bit, either 'more sharply' or 'more flatly', as it were.  For example, on mine, it shouldn't be too difficult with one or two RHS 3rd row redesigns, to play in E major and A major, if that's the direction a player wanted to go in, rather than having buttons designed to make the normal keys easier to play smoothly.  Or if one wanted to go in the flat direction, you could probably redesign it differently, to allow F major and even Bb major playing as well.  Personally, I suppose I've gone down the route of ease of playing in the main keys, but I recognise that others could well have a different philosophy.

I had a look at your layout, which is quite a bit different from mine, though it still has the basic 4-button repeat idea on the 3rd RHS row.  My 11-10-9 box also has three C push/Bbpull buttons covering the two octaves, in its 9-button layout (why not add two more buttons? - I find my 7-button 3rd row box occasionally too limited, for example for the tune Catharsis in Am), and I certainly find having Bb on the RHS push or pull very handy for Dm and Gm playing.  Something I also noticed is that you've only one (low?) Eb push on the RHS, which might perhaps limit the usefulness of the LHS Eb push chord buttons?  (Though not having them, I don't know.)  Another top C/D on your layout might also be useful?  However, these are only initial thoughts - the additional LHS chords will give more flexibility on RHS options, so it's maybe a different but effective design.

You mentioned designers - I wrote to Olav Bergflodt fairly recently, and he said he can also do pretty much what you want.

My last thought, though, is that complex designs like ours put us on lonely paths, and I realised 25-30 years ago when I got my first big box that I could easily spend a lifetime finding out how to play these designs - and so it is proving!  Because of the complexity of the layout, as I'm sure you've found, the brain has to learn weird combinations, and perhaps it's just too difficult, to constitute a sensible musical direction.  However, I still have faith that it's not!

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Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 03:30:31 PM »

I'm 'same layout' on my main boxes too, same reason. Happy to drop by and let you try the 18 bass some time, while not the obvious route Wensleydale could be seen as en route to my mother's. or will you be at Whitby, or is dales tunes to run again?
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 09:50:15 AM »

Sorry to have been slow to reply to your posts, Chris B. and Chris R. I was out all day yesterday on a glorious 12-mile walk on the hills around Semerwater and then spent the evening at the session at the Old Hill Inn just below Ingleborough.

Chris B.: I was basing my thoughts on my Castagnari Benny layout, which is on this site under Three Row Layouts and on the cut down version of that layout which I used on my Pariselle. The Benny has ten buttons on the inside row, which from experience, is more than I need, while the Pariselle has six buttons, which is a bit limiting. Your comments have given me food for thought and I am now considering having nine buttons on the inside row so that I can include an extra C push at each end with a low G# pull and a high D pull. The main drawback with my inside row as I see it is the need to put the middle octave Eb on the pull rather than the push in order to accommodate a C# reversal, which I find very useful. However, this drawback will be ameliorated considerably by including Eb basses in both directions. Following your suggestion, I have had an initial look at Olav Bergflodt's website and appears to be worth considering, although he is a manufacturer about whom I know nothing.

Chris R.: Thanks for the offer of trying your 18-bass box, which I would like to do. I am intending to be at Whitby, but probably not for the whole week. Hopefully, we can meet up there. In answer to your question about the Dales tune workshop, I am hoping to run it again, but not until I have finished transcribing the other tunes from the field recordings I have acquired. With all I have on this year, I won't be able to fit in another workshop until next year.

I was thinking of going to Chateau d'Ars next year (can't manage it this year) in the hope of comparing boxes from Marc Serafini, Bertrand Gaillard, Maugein and perhaps other manufacturers, but I notice that Marc Serafini isn't on the list of manufacturers attending this year. Perhaps he has stopped going. The alternative would be to visit their workshops, but Gaillard's place at Chapelle sur Erde near Nantes is a long way from Marc Serafini's at Toulouse.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Brimley

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 11:12:06 AM »

Bob, looking at the layouts again, and your comments, another point occurred to me, which may take some grappling with, but I ought to add it:

You're quite rightly IMO focussing on LHS chord and RHS push/pull design, but there is another consideration too, and I'm not sure to what extent it's covered in these designs.  It concerns bass runs.  I've found the main advantage by far that my 14 bass has over the 12 bass is in the use of the F#/C# button 13 (the outer one), and I've a hunch that's why Andy Cutting designed it that way.  I do use it to some extent where I've say got an F#m chord on the push, where I need a diminished chord, and where I'm playing a semitone bass run, but it really comes into its own as the major third notes when playing D or A chords.  I'm mainly a first and second finger LH player, darting about from the 'home position' D/A bass buttons, and I use the pinky mainly for buttons 13 and 14.  I also play bass guitar, where chord arpeggios are very frequently used, so I'm thinking in terms of root, 3rd and 5th bass runs as being very common, and of course the basis of boogie-woogie piano.  So numbering the LH fingers, if you play a 2141, 2141 against push on the first four notes, pull on the second, you'll find you get a simple but very satisfying bass/chord accompaniment for D major in the first bar, A major in the second, simply by substituting the pinky for the 2nd finger alternately, and stretching it across to button 13.  I have to say I use this an awful lot in my playing, because it immediately adds variety to the standard 'boom, chink' bass/chord style, and you can learn to do it automatically like boogie-woogie pianists do. 

With your 18 bass layout, I can see ways in which you could do the same thing, but it struck me you might find it worthwhile to consider to what extent it works in practice, by looking at how you would play given bass runs.
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Owen Woods

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2013, 11:27:46 AM »

Puss or push F#s are very much a matter of personal preference. I have a pull F# and I find it very useful for playing against the A chord to get F#m7, against the pull D to get D/F# and for use against an F#dim chord on the RH.

Bob's layout looks pretty sensible to me. The only question mark that I would have is the push C# bass. Perhaps a puss F# bass and a pull C# bass would be better? Depends on how he wants to play it.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2013, 02:23:51 PM »

Bob Can't conveniently pop by as Grandma is actually coming to me tomorrow! But I've booked into Whitby whole week and you can borrow/swap boxes there.  First complete F/W since 1990 AFAIR though I've done several long weekends. I tend to hang out in the erstwhile Cutty Sark, now "Station" the Dolphin also had some very cool music last year.  Believe "Pikey" of this parish is planning a melnet reunion ?the thursday. Met Kevin first at your own Dales event - quite a character and great natural player. And another singer

Chris B still trying to wrap mind round your boogie woogie post, sounds fascinating! Think I need a box in hand to comprehend, something not available at work sadly.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2013, 08:25:00 PM »

Chris B: Some interesting food for thought in your last post. I had considered bass runs because I do use them quite a lot, but I hadn't considered semitone runs. Your point about boogie-woogie piano accompaniment is new to me, being neither a pianist nor a guitarist, but I have tried it out on my Pariselle with pleasing results. I will have to consider whether to alter my layout to facilitate this or whether to turn to my Pariselle when I want to use that kind of bass accompaniment. Bass runs are easier now I have converted to four-finger bass playing, but I can see that some of the things you are suggesting would be even easier if I redesign the bass end. Your suggestions are providing valuable input, which is much appreciated.

Owen: My reason for having the F# basses on the pull is much as your describe. I have this on my Pariselle and on my Benny and find it very useful. In an ideal world, I would have the F# basses on the pushl as well, but I haven't missed not having them on my present instruments, so I don't think I will need them on the new one. The reasons for the C# basses on the push were that I thought they would be useful when playing in D and A, bearing in mind that I also have a C# push on the right hand end, which I use quite frequently. However, I can see your argument for having C# pull basses as well. I will consider what could be sacrificed in order to achieve that.

As I mentioned earlier, an important constraint is that I want to be able to find the same notes and basses in the same places on both my Pariselle and the new box, although the new one will, of course, have additional melody and bass notes that the Pariselle cannot accommodate in its 10-9-6 layout.

Chris R.: Whitby will be fine. I don't want to rush into this. I shall mull things over and tinker with the layout until I am satisfied that it fits my requirements as perfectly as possible. My present thinking is to ask Bertrand Gaillard to build it, to go for the 18-bass option and to have an 11-10-9 layout on the right-hand side, but this may change in the light of further reflection, contributions to this thread and, of course, trying out how easy I find it to reach the inside row on an 18-bass configuration.

If anyone has any experience of Gaillard boxes that I should know about, please post them.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Andy Simpson

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2013, 09:08:48 PM »

.... My present thinking is to ask Bertrand Gaillard to build it, to go for the 18-bass option and to have an 11-10-9 layout on the right-hand side, but this may change in the light of further reflection...

Good luck with that... ;D

Gaillard is perhaps the most inflexible maker out there, he doesn't even offer the choice of another wood. He only offers a very limited set of options on the models he does do so you'd either have to make do with a 19+4, (Améthyste), or go for the full 11/12/11, (Saphir). Of course, that isn't any comment on the quality of his work but he's not a "custom" builder and it's very much his way or the highway.

Both my new boxes were true custom jobs, (11/10/2 with 9 basses), but I haven't got either yet so can't really comment.
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diatonix

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 09:37:10 PM »

Andy, I have this from a very reliable source: your E-A 23/9 is almost finished...
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Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2013, 10:10:05 PM »

Gaillard is perhaps the most inflexible maker out there, he doesn't even offer the choice of another wood. He only offers a very limited set of options on the models he does do so you'd either have to make do with a 19+4, (Améthyste), or go for the full 11/12/11, (Saphir). Of course, that isn't any comment on the quality of his work but he's not a "custom" builder and it's very much his way or the highway.

Sorry, that's a bit unfair. While Bertrand is the ultimate perfectionist and charges accordingly, and has spent 30 years striving to get everything right … he does offer options. All but the basic model come with 12 or 16 chording basses, or the Grenoble chromatic 18 (not all chords).  On the crystal you can even ask for 8! http://www.gaillardaccordions.com/accordeon-cristal.html

You are right about the woods. "Own system" is about €400 extra, but I'd guess less or "gratuit"  for trivia like turning accidentals or minor helper row changes.  He cuts your blocks to resonate well,  so any more changes mean some maths for him and a special jig.

His standard right ends include quite a lot of tunings, half-toners, French system and Pignol-Milleret (which he co-developed). He regarded my F#G/C as "special" but I think he'd happily do a club or Dutch flip for you.

He's not a fan of bandoneon voicing, but that's a standard option too.
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Andy Simpson

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2013, 11:19:13 PM »

Andy, I have this from a very reliable source: your E-A 23/9 is almost finished...

Fantastic!. That Bergflodt chap is rather good. The other fellow seems to be taking his time though, I've seen glaciers in more of a hurry... ;D

Sorry, that's a bit unfair. While Bertrand is the ultimate perfectionist and charges accordingly, and has spent 30 years striving to get everything right … he does offer options.

Gaillard is perhaps the most inflexible maker out there, he doesn't even offer the choice of another wood. He only offers a very limited set of options on the models he does do so you'd either have to make do with a 19+4, (Améthyste), or go for the full 11/12/11, (Saphir).
  ::)

Yes, Gaillard does offer options but nowhere near as many as most of the other individual builders. You can get your own layout from most factories and small workshop makers from the likes of Giustozzi up to Castagnari and most of them offer the same models in different woods as well so there's nothing particularly special about that. Custom grille?, no, different wood?, no, stepped keyboard?, no, different sized box or odd number of buttons that an existing model doesn't have?, nope. The boxes I've ordered didn't match the specification of any existing instrument but the makers had no problem building them for me, I couldn't have got them from M. Gaillard though. He's willing to tailor his existing patterns to a certain extent but he doesn't make a bespoke made-to-measure instrument like Stormy Hyde, for example.

As I specifically said, that's not a comment on the quality of his work, which looks superb, or the boxes, it's a literal statement of the way he conducts his business and he seems to be doing rather well with it. However, he doesn't currently offer a 11/10/9 3 row and I don't think Bob would have any luck trying to get him to build one.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:20:50 PM by Andy Simpson »
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