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Author Topic: My ideal box  (Read 21200 times)

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squeezy

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2014, 07:58:04 PM »

It is my experience of 3 voice LMM boxes that none set to just MM come close to the tone and clarity of a good quality straight 2 voice MM.  When played in the LM configuration I cannot tell the difference so much.  I can guess the reasons for that but I wouldn't be sure of my theories!

That's not to say that a top quality 3 voice MM sound can't be better than a poor quality 2 voice MM sound ... and possibly there are solutions out there I have yet to see which provide the perfect balance.

Whatever the case ... if, like many others, you're seeking a box with a nice LMM sound, you have no option but to go for an LMM tuned 3 voice!  But if it's a toss up between that and an MM box - you're definitely in a quandary ... there's size and weight issues to consider on top of the clarity of the MM sound.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2014, 10:43:47 PM »

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Your reply is very helpful because it sets out the pros and cons very clearly. I am not looking for responses that make the decision for me, but ones that will help me to ensure that I make an informed decision having considered all the relevant factors. Your response helps me to do that, so I am very grateful.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2014, 09:40:39 AM »

I took delivery of a LMM a year ago; Bob has played it).

The issue is that one wants to use those reeds in "LM" voicing too, where tuning has to be pitch perfect 1 octave apart.

As I understand it this means that any tremolo in MM mode has to be done by tuning the other M reed slightly off: eg N cents sharp. The resultant note to the ear then sounds N/2 cents sharp of our LM voicing. Tolerable if it's "dry/semi-swing" but could sound sloppy otherwise.

Whereas your simple MM (I have one of these too) can be tuned N/2 either side of true pitch, and sound sweet as a nut (:)  Works for me ..
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-Y-

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2014, 09:58:03 AM »

Hullo,
I'm not really sure to have understood the subtleties of the discussion on tuning. Is your concern to choose between 3 or 2 voices ?
Anyway, I've been using LMM+ boxes for several years now and I honestly could not tell the difference in sound between a MM+ box and a LMM+ box using only M and M+ voices. I guess there may be differences in the frequency spectrum, but I would not bet that these differences are not of the same order than the differences in frequency spectrum between two given boxes from the same maker. For me, the real difference between 3 and 2 voices boxes is that the 3 voices tend to be larger in dimensions, and therefore cannot be handled in the same way. Larger boxes present more inertia in the handling, but it's just a matter of practice. IMHO, the only relevant question is : do you want to have both LM and MM+ tunings available ?
If you're not interested in having vibrato tuning (MM+, not sure about the proper English term, maybe tremolo is more idiomatic ?), you could also consider LMH tuning, which with appropriate couplers may give you even more sound possibilities. Personally, I rather like a slight vibrato (tremolo?) and therefore my ideal box would be a 3 rows 4 voices LMM+H (possibly with cassotto for the low voice).

Owen Woods

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2014, 10:15:48 AM »

If you're not interested in having vibrato tuning (MM+, not sure about the proper English term, maybe tremolo is more idiomatic ?), you could also consider LMH tuning, which with appropriate couplers may give you even more sound possibilities. Personally, I rather like a slight vibrato (tremolo?) and therefore my ideal box would be a 3 rows 4 voices LMM+H (possibly with cassotto for the low voice).

Musette is usually used, but I'm not sure how appropriate that is, since musette is a kind of tuning itself. Tremelo would make more sense perhaps. I would love LMH, but LMM+H with cassotto sounds stunning!
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2014, 12:44:15 PM »

I won't be going down the LMMH road - I'm not that strong! LMH doesn't appeal to me either because I would lose the MM+ tuning that I use so much and like. My choice will be between a two-voice MM+ and a three-voice LMM+ with two couplers so that I can also play LM or MM+.

If there is little difference in sound between the MM+ of a two-voice swing-tuned box and the MM+ setting of a three-voice box with couplers, then the issue comes down to the different sound one gets from the larger box needed to house the extra bank of reeds - and that is being discussed extensively in another thread.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2014, 01:56:20 PM »

I won't be going down the LMMH road - I'm not that strong! LMH doesn't appeal to me either because I would lose the MM+ tuning that I use so much and like. My choice will be between a two-voice MM+ and a three-voice LMM+ with two couplers so that I can also play LM or MM+.

Actually, as long as you don't add too much weight on the left-hand side, handling does not change that much, but that's not the issue here. FWIW, I also couldn't give up MM+ but I'm under the impression that it is a growing tendency nowadays to drop the M+ voice. Nevertheless, I value the low voice very much, and not necessarily for the LM or LMM+ settings. It's great for some slower tunes, and I kind of love playing chords with the low voice only, it is very useful in case where you want to blend in with other instruments or if you need to make a « liaison » between accompanying and melody. In this respect, having individual stops helps a lot. It is the case for the video link you posted. By the way Clément Guais is a very nice person, and its boxes have a really distinct timbre, the outside has a nice « italian » look, and the action is truly pleasant. The only downside I could see was that, perhaps, the basses lacked a bit of deepness, but that's probably not an issue for D/G boxes with higher pitches than the usual G/C boxes we have down here. Also, he's not making boxes for that long (2 years or so), so he may still be opened for custom requests. If you're into French makers, you could also ask people like Jérémie Vanglabeke (somewhere Northwest of Lyon) or Tania Rutkowski in Centre France, that both make nice boxes and are, as far as I'm aware, opened to custom requests.
Personally, I don't like the feels or look of the Loffet, but that's a matter of personal taste.

If there is little difference in sound between the MM+ of a two-voice swing-tuned box and the MM+ setting of a three-voice box with couplers, then the issue comes down to the different sound one gets from the larger box needed to house the extra bank of reeds - and that is being discussed extensively in another thread.[/color]

Interesting, but I could not find the thread, do you have the link to it ?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:59:16 PM by daoudonek »
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2014, 04:03:34 PM »

If there is little difference in sound between the MM+ of a two-voice swing-tuned box and the MM+ setting of a three-voice box with couplers, then the issue comes down to the different sound one gets from the larger box needed to house the extra bank of reeds - and that is being discussed extensively in another thread.[/color]

Interesting, but I could not find the thread, do you have the link to it ?

It is in the General Discussion section and is entitled 'Does Size Matter?'
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2014, 04:08:45 PM »

I have looked already at the websites of Jérémie Vanglabeke and Tania Rutkowski. Both are under consideration, especially Jérémie Vanglabeke, but my preferred option at the moment is Clément Guais, mainly because of the gorgeous sound and good looks of the instrument on which he played Zonzon on his YouTube clip.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2014, 10:56:32 AM »

The recent 'preferred finish' thread has had me popping back to this one to remind me of the French makers' names and to take a look at the lovely wood used by the makers listed here, Guais, Vanglabeke in particular.
I wonder if anyone's actually played any of their instruments?
With Chris R's recent post saying that 'St Chartier 2014' is looking very unlikely, it poses the question of how to see/play such things unless you take a road trip around Europe. .....but I suppose that's possibly half the fun.
Q
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2014, 11:00:12 AM »

The recent 'preferred finish' thread has had me popping back to this one to remind me of the French makers' names and to take a look at the lovely wood used by the makers listed here, Guais, Vanglabeke in particular.
I wonder if anyone's actually played any of their instruments?
With Chris R's recent post saying that 'St Chartier 2014' is looking very unlikely, it poses the question of how to see/play such things unless you take a road trip around Europe. .....but I suppose that's possibly half the fun.
Q

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2014, 01:22:27 PM »

 ;D
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2014, 07:43:03 PM »

The recent 'preferred finish' thread has had me popping back to this one to remind me of the French makers' names and to take a look at the lovely wood used by the makers listed here, Guais, Vanglabeke in particular.
I wonder if anyone's actually played any of their instruments?
With Chris R's recent post saying that 'St Chartier 2014' is looking very unlikely, it poses the question of how to see/play such things unless you take a road trip around Europe. .....but I suppose that's possibly half the fun.
Q

I feel the same. I would love to have a play on a Clément Guais, a Jérémie Vanglabeke or a Marc Serafini (or boxes by any similar French artisan manufacturer, for that matter) before placing an order for my new box with one of them, but you never seem to see their instruments in England. Does anyone who is going to Mendlesham in March own one of these instruments that I might be able to fondle for a few minutes?

By the way, I have tried e-mailing Clément Guais and received no reply. Has anyone else had difficulty in contacting him?
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Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Roger Howard

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2014, 10:24:21 PM »

I wonder if anyone's actually played any of their instruments?

I had a play on Jeremie Vanglabeke's two and a half and three row models when I visited his workship about eighteen months ago. They were very responsive and well-balanced, with a lovely tone, and a very high standard of craftsmanship. Very, very tempting ... Made only to order, and with about a year and a half waiting list.

Roger
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oggiesnr

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2014, 11:08:15 PM »

Look at the Loffet range.  OK I'm biased as I play a 2.6 Pro (G/C/Accs) as my main box but he now does an eighteen bass, they're well made (yes I know the comments on here from a year or so back) the quality is good, it may not have the cachet of a pure atelier box but I'm into how it plays, not the name on the front and they're reasonably priced for the quality you get.  Theo has worked on my box so he may have an opinion on it's quality.

Steve
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2014, 09:39:48 AM »

I've played a couple of Loffet Pro's and yes, I like them. The first encounter left me with the impression that they were physically large boxes. The second time less so, but good sound and action.
( I couldn't get on with the grat e Breiz as the button spacing was too big on the bass end, and different to the Pro )

I suppose in a few years time word of mouth will either mean the smaller makers become more successful, or quietly fade away.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Ryall

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2014, 11:23:15 AM »

I am of the view (post research St Chartier 2011) that Loffets might not be the best boxes in the World, but that they do represent some of the best quality/cost value amongst "good quality" accordeons. Bernard and Cathy are also very nice people.
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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2014, 03:05:57 PM »

how about Beltrami? i had him make a custom box for me and he is well known for bespoke melodeons and accordions, and is considered one of the best tuners in italy, he is very patient and will try your ideas and tell you what is best/possible
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Bob Ellis

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2014, 04:34:43 PM »

Having started this thread back in June, it has been interesting to review all the posts and to see how they and other influences have altered my thinking as time has passed. I have moved away from the idea of 18 basses because I find the C fundamental bass button at the limit of the reach with my little finger, so a button inside that might be a stretch too far, and because I want to keep down the weight in the bass end of the instrument.

My D/G/acc. layout (see layout pages elsewhere on melodeon.net) has stood the test of time and has since been adopted by several other people. However, I have decided to change my layout for the four bass buttons at the bottom end (i.e. nearest the knee) so that I have F# minor on the push and F natural on the pull on the outer pair of buttons and B flat on the push and E flat on the pull on the inner pair. I've also changed the bottom two buttons on the accidental row to C/D and C#/Eb.

My choice of manufacturer eventually settled on Clément Guais, who has a workshop at Chateau-Gontier that I shall be visiting in May. A major influence in choosing Clément was the YouTube video of him playing Zonzon on one of his three-row boxes. I fell in love with the gorgeous bandoneon-tuned sound of that instrument and its beautiful walnut finish. Another was the courteous and helpful responses to my e-mails.

Since I wanted a three-voice box, I have chosen to have one with switches that will give me five voice options, single voice L or M, two voice LM or MM and three voice LMM. There will also be bass switches to take out the thirds and/or the low notes. The extra weight of the three voices (5.3 kg in total) was also a factor in my decision to go for 12 basses rather than 18. The reeds will be Binci a mano, which he uses in all his instruments.

Clément says that delivery will be in July. If he sticks to that, it will arrive in time for Sidmouth, but I will have to wait and see whether or not it does. There is a lot of excitement in one half of the Ellis household and a certain amount of muttering emanating from the other half.  ;D  ::)

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Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Owen Woods

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Re: My ideal box
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2014, 04:45:48 PM »

Glad to hear that you've made a decision Bob! And sounds lovely. Looking forward to seeing and hearing it - if we run into each other at Sidmouth I would love to have a play!
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