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[mauvera]

Hello to all, with my band in Italy I propose different kind of music, from klezmer to Italian and France music, and also some Irish music, for this  I use a D/G  melodeon . For improve my irish style (I am not Tim Edey)  I am buying a new accordion in B/C  hoping to grow in this style.
I would like to ask the experts who frequent this forum two questions.
Is better for me to buy a B/C melodeon or is better D/D# or C#/D just to have a row in D (like my old D/G accordion)?
Playing for more than 20 years a G/C or D/G melodeon is very difficult change and learn also a semitone tuning?
Thank you very much to those who will respond

[george garside]

the simplest way to get the hang of a BC is  to think in terms of the C row being like the white notes on a piano and the B row the blak notes.  Then work out sale of G and play it mostlym fon the C row but with the F#  on the B row.  then do same with key of D taking F# and C# on the B row.  A is muh the same adding G# from the B row.   

There are two notes available in either bellows direction,  E and B   ( push E on C row and pull E on B row  and    pull  B on C row and  push B on B row.)  When playing in A it is advisable to make mximum use of the push E & B  to prevent the bellows going out too far.

George.

[Stiamh]

Is better for me to buy a B/C melodeon or is better D/D# or C#/D just to have a row in D (like my old D/G accordion)?
Playing for more than 20 years a G/C or D/G melodeon is very difficult change and learn also a semitone tuning?
Thank you very much to those who will respond

B/C is a wonderful system but I think you'd find C#/D a good deal easier to get the hang of, and all things considered it is just as good as B/C for Irish music. If there is a particular style of B/C playing, or a particular B/C player, that you admire, then go for B/C. Same if you want to do a lot of playing in keys with no sharps and up to a couple of flats in the key signature. Otherwise why not make life a bit easier for yourself and keep a D row?

There are a couple of players on here who like the D/D# system, and it certainly has strong points. But I would recommend C#/D as more suitable for Irish music the way it is played today.

[tedrick]

I found the BC system very intuitive and easy to learn - [do] - (re me fa) [sol la ti do] -  [indicates draw notes] (indicates press notes)
Tim Edey has a dvd on playing traditional Irish music on the D/G and he is also a BC player -

the chromaticism of klezmer will lend itself nicely to any of the semi tone boxes -

[mauvera]

But I would recommend C#/D as more suitable for Irish music the way it is played today.

Many thanks for the advice. My biggest doubt is that using the C#/D tuning I can found more difficulty playing the pieces in the G key, most of the pieces I'm playing now are in G, is not it?
Thanks!

[deltasalmon]

Playing in G on a BC and C#D are both played mostly on the inside row and reaching to the outside row for one note. In BC you reach out for the F# and for the C#D you need to reach out for the C nat.

The bigger difference comes when playing in D which can be played along the row on a C#D but requires more cross row playing on as C#D where both F# and C# are on the outside row.

[Stiamh]

Hi Mauvera. It's true that the key of G is generally a little easier on the B/C.

On C#/D there is a bit more stretching and jumping involved, and of course in G you are playing "on the pull". Once you get used to it, however, it's fine. I really enjoy playing in G.

I would say that A minor modes are also slightly easier on B/C.

On the other hand, D major will take just as much, if not more, effort to get used to on B/C (than G on C#/D). A major and B minor are also easier on C#/D.

I forgot to give my usual piece of advice to anyone wondering which system to choose. Try to borrow, or even rent, any semitone box for a week or two. Use this time to experiment with the various fingering systems. For instance if you borrow a B/C, you can not only try out its native fingerings, but you can "pretend" it's a C#/D. And the other way around of course.

You can even pretend you have a D/D# or a C/C#, too.

Of course if you have a bad case of absolute pitch, this experiment might prove confusing. But it's what I did and helped me make up my mind without being plagued by doubts that I had made the wrong choice.

Cheers
Steve

PS While I was typing this deltasalmon said it more succinctly!

[mauvera]

Really thank you very much to Steve and Deltasalmon for suggestions!
I live in north est Italy on the border from Slovenia and Austria and nobody here have a semitone instrument, so it is impossible for me take one for borrow or rent,  I must decide following your advise.
Just a last question, what do you think about D/C#, the D row in outer row can  be better?
Thanks to all.

[Stiamh]

Just a last question, what do you think about D/C#, the D row in outer row can  be better?

I really can't say, because I haven't tried a D/C#. If you have a strong preference for playing on the outer row, it might be a good choice. Listen to the music of Joe Derrane, the famous American box player now in his early 80s. He is the king of the D/C# and will show you what it is possible to achieve with this system. Plenty of stuff on YouTube.

However, I think that B/C and C#/D have become the standards in Irish music for good reason, and not just a matter of historical accident. (D/D# and C/C# systems were available in Ireland in past decades, but now almost nobody is using them to play "outside-in", i.e. mainly on the outer row.)

B/C and C#/D are "inside-out" systems, where for any button on the main (inner row) you have the note one semitone flat conveniently placed on the outer row in the same bellows direction.

This

• enables you to do characteristically Irish ornaments, such as the famous 5-note roll, and also a very effective "fake slide" executed by sounding the note one semitone below immediately before the main note
• makes many tunes that feature accidentals in the form of "semitone dips" easy to execute.

You just can't do either 1) or 2) on D/D#, because the semitone below on the inner row is in the opposite bellows direction. On D/C# you can, theoretically, but how this works in practice, I don't know. Joe Derrane's rolls have a very different sound from those of inside-out players - more staccato, much less fluid.

Another point worth considering is that if you choose B/C or C#/D it will be much easier to find experienced players to give you tips, either in person or online.

[mauvera]

Really very exhaustive, thank you very much.

Maurizio Veraldi

[deltasalmon]

I also have no experience playing with D on the outside row. I suppose that if D is on your outside row on a D/G and you're used to playing there it could make the switch easier.

I'm pretty sure there is no standard for D/C# layout but here is a layout that was put together to show a possibility.

A few points that seem interesting to me, with the D row as your outside row and with a 4th button start you get the same range as a C#/D but with an additional low D/G key which I could see being very useful for playing "double stops" (not sure if the term is really used when playing accordion). The bass side in that layout with 14 buttons is obviously going to be much more useful than a standard 8 button bass but this is a custom built layout and is unlikely to be found on any D/C# accordion you might find.

[mauvera]

Thanks deltasalmon, interesting layout, but without C natural how is possible play in G tonality?

[Stiamh]

Thanks deltasalmon, interesting layout, but without C natural how is possible play in G tonality?

The answer is that your b# is your c natural!

Any semitone box will cover all 12 tones of the chromatic scale, with two duplicates as spares!

PS - to pick up on the point deltasalmon made about the low D/G button. For me (as an Irish fiddle player in another life), low G is essential. That is why I recommend a 23-button accordion for C#/D.

[mauvera]

Oh yes of course, I didn't see the B#.....
Now I have enough information to decide.
Thank you  for all the advice.
It is always a pleasure to read this forum attended by experts musicians.
...and I'm sorry for my terrible English Language....

[Stiamh]

Prego, Maurizio.

Your English is fine, and much better than our Italian, and I at least am no expert - I just have an obsessive desire to understand (and an inability to keep my mouth shut).

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[Mike Hirst]

B/C and C#/D are "inside-out" systems, where for any button on the main (inner row) you have the note one semitone flat conveniently placed on the outer row in the same bellows direction.

This

• enables you to do characteristically Irish ornaments, such as the famous 5-note roll, and also a very effective "fake slide" executed by sounding the note one semitone below immediately before the main note
• makes many tunes that feature accidentals in the form of "semitone dips" easy to execute.

You just can't do either 1) or 2) on D/D#, because the semitone below on the inner row is in the opposite bellows direction.

This is a crucial distinction, which, although I have discovered this from my own experience, I have not before seen in print.

I would however point out that where scales are played across both rows these options are available when playing outside in.

The example below is typical of the kind of thing I would play in the key of G on D/D# accordion. Although it is written in waltz time, the sequence of notes is the same as would be heard in a typical five note roll.

Code: [Select]

X:1
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:G
"Em"(3G/A/G/ F G|"Am"(3c/d/c/ B c|"D7"(3d/e/d/ ^c d|"G"G3|]


[mauvera]

At the end I decided for  C#/D, now I am in negotiations with Saltarelle Company to buy a Saltarelle Nuage or a Saltarelle Atalante (14 bass is interesting).
When the new box will arrive (about two months), I will write to this forum  for any suggestions to get started right, or also for online lessons.
I bought this box to play traditional Irish music (which I'm already playing with my Castagnari ROMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKa4ofi6dbA
but as I said, I would like to improve my technique)
for other kind of music of course I will continue to use my two Castagnari.
Thanks for your support

[ButtonBox21]

I have played both BC and C#D.  I prefer the C#D because it does not require the intricate fingering techniques that the are needed in the BC system. When playing in G, you will play the inside D row and only go to the outside row for the C natural. You will have to practice fingering techniques for this but with your experience, you will adapt very quickly. I think you made a good choice and you will like the Saltarell. You can get sheet music for Irish tunes from www.thesession.org. You can also go to Henrick Norbec's Irish Tunes site for tunes. You should try to attend a local session and listen to the songs they play. Talk to the box player if there is one and they will be glad to give you advise on playing techniques.  Good luck and keep squeezin'.

[mauvera]

Thanks streetcleaner, I knew thesession.org but I did'nt Henrik Norbeck's. About Saltarelle I think that with BINCI reeds is really a good instrument, like a Castagnari, I just wonder if 18 bass instead 8 and 25 buttons instead 23 tie more than 800 g in weight ....

[Stiamh]

When playing in G, you will play the inside D row and only go to the outside row for the C natural.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Maurizio, I advise you to use make very frequent use of the outer row pull F#. It will make playing in G (and D, and Em, and A dorian and A mixolydian and any key with one sharp or more) MUCH easier, more fluid and more satisfying. The push C# on the outer row will come in handy too, in keys with 2 or more sharps, even if it is not quite so crucial as the pull F#.

For example, any time you have an run of EF#G or GF#E in either octave, you should evaluate the possibility of using the outer row F#. I think you'll find that in about 8 cases out of 10, it makes sense to use it. Sometimes also for F#GA runs, although not if you want to use the D chord with your F#.

You also need to use your pull F# when playing in Bm, if you want to use chords. But even if you don't, the interplay between F# and B on the pull is a great asset. 

It's very easy to ignore these "magic notes", especially on C#/D, but it's a big mistake to do so. Mind you with your experience of D/G and other "fourth-apart" systems I wouldn't expect you to fall into this trap.