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Author Topic: Pesky Modes  (Read 23181 times)

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Jack Campin

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 07:07:46 PM »

It looks the person who said you'd reject modal key signatures was factually wrong, so no dispute there.

This is the kind of thing that took me to look at Atkinson's manuscript and start retranscribing the whole thing (until I discovered after the incredible slog it took to extract it from FARNE's page-at-a-time-if-you-ask-nicely user interface that they didn't actually have it all up there anyway and there seemed to be no way to find the missing bits).  Maybe you've redone this?

Code: [Select]
X: 60
T:Untitled. HA.059
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:90
S:Henry Atkinson's original MS,Hartburn,N'umberland,1694.
O:England
A:Hartburn,Northumberland
H:1/8
Z:vmp.Chris Partington.Jan.2004
K:F
d^cdefg|e2e2a2|d2e2^c2|dcde"qu"d2|!
d^cdefg|e2e2a2|d2e2^c2|d4A2:|!
|:agab"qu"a2|f4c2|f2g2e2|fefgfg|!
agab"qu"a2|A4a2|g2e4|d6:|]

- key signature given as F major instead of D minor

- tempo given the way ABC2WIN did it, and far too slow if read correctly (3/4=60 sounds about right to me)

- line ends given using ABC2WIN's obsolete convention

- the ending is syntactically incorrect ABC, should just be :|

- what does "H:1/8" mean?

- you've put the differences between literal and edited readings into the score as superposed text.  That won't always work; it's better to put the literal original in a comment in the tune header.  And you can only work out what "qu" means by looking at other tunes in the file (I think it means "quaver", which a typical American user would have no way to guess).

I can figure out what you (and presumably Atkinson) meant - but there's room for improvement, surely?
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TomBom

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2013, 08:46:06 PM »

Jack Campin, what is your message? Do you want to prove that you are right and the code quality does not keep up to your standard?

By the way Q:90 is outdated and meant 90 beats per minute of the note length mentioned in L.
It should equal Q:1/8=90 which is not really slow.
I can't see any relevance how your specific ABC program is interpreting the code.

Wouldn't it be possible to make the obvious corrections yourself without showing off your knowledge?
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ChrisP

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2013, 08:53:10 PM »


I was careful to say
Quote
files currently on the VMP site
The version of the file you've quoted from is dated 2004 and has been revised several times since. I started dating my revisions in 2008. Some revision occurred previously but wasn't dated.
This is the current version, from 2009.

X:59
T:Untitled. HA.058
M:6/4
L:1/4
Q:3/4=90
S:Henry Atkinson's original MS,Hartburn,N'umberland,1694.
O:England
A:Hartburn,Northumberland
H:1/4
Z:vmp.Chris Partington.Jan.2004
K:F
d|B>AB GAB|c>de ABc|B>AB Ggf|eg2 d2:|!
e|fcA fcA|fcA fcA|gdB gdB|gdB gdB|!
fcA fcA|fcA fcA|gdg ece|dg2 d3|]

Quote
key signature given as F major instead of D minor
Dealt with in my previous post.
Quote
tempo given the way ABC2WIN did it, and far too slow if read correctly (3/4=60 sounds about right to me)
It was correct for ABC2win, which we used at the time. It was amended in our files in or before 2008. Tempo has been set to give a clear hearing of the tune. Of course that is subjective.
Quote
line ends given using ABC2WIN's obsolete convention
It complied with both ABC2win, with the standards 1.7.6 from 2000, draft 2.0 from 2003, standard 2.0 from 2010, and though deprecated in 2.1 of last year, is still supported and will remain so. We no longer use it but will only remove it from old files if they need revising for another reason.
Quote
the ending is syntactically incorrect ABC, should just be :|
See revision.
Quote
what does "H:1/8" mean?
That's left over from the ABC2win days and could be got rid of. We no longer use it but will only remove it from old files if they need revising for another reason. That program had a way of re-calculating your L:fields for you against your wishes, for it's own dark reasons, even if you'd specified an L:, and often in the actual act of sending a tune to the printer. This was especially the case for our sort of MSS, whose bar lengths sometimes run counter to the meter. I fancied for a while that I could trick it by using C and C|. Didn't work.  For a while I took to repeating the L: in the H:, so that I had a check on board the tune.
Quote
you've put the differences between literal and edited readings into the score as superposed text.  That won't always work; it's better to put the literal original in a comment in the tune header.
Sometimes better I agree, and we do both depending on circumstances, but remember that very few people print the N: field along with the tune, whereas superposed comments print whatever.
Quote
(I think it means "quaver", which a typical American user would have no way to guess).
And so it does. Not once since 1998 have I ever been asked what qu and crot mean (we usually say 'qu in ms'), even typical American users seem to be able to work it out.

I do not agree with your devastating statement that there is 'room for improvement' which when I was at school was the equivalent of saying 'that wouldn't pass in my day'. I actually think my code is very tidy.

Jack Campin

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 09:11:36 PM »

The point is that VMP is doing something which may well not be done again.  It has to be got right first time, and made as useful as possible for future generations.  Which means any standard short of uptight anal-retentive perfectionism is inadequate.  It looks like they're heading that way, which is to the good.

That revised version improves on some things, but loses the description of editorial changes entirely, retains the ! line endings, leaves the mode wrong, and does something different with the ending.  Does the second part repeat or not? - the first version says it does, the second says not.  Sources of this period vary in how reliably they indicate that, maybe some comment is in order.

I've started putting a "last edit" date into the header of each tune I transcribe (not just a version number on the file).  Wish I'd thought of it long ago.  Really what I'd like would be for ABC to provide a centrally managed source of unique tune/version identifiers so you could know for sure if you had the latest version the transcriber provided.
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ChrisP

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »

OMG, just noticed that I'd posted the wrong tune entirely. Should have been this one.

X:60
T:Untitled. HA.059
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:3/4=60
S:Henry Atkinson's original MS,Hartburn,N'umberland,1694.
O:England
A:Hartburn,Northumberland
H:1/8
Z:vmp.Chris Partington.Jan.2004
K:F
d^cdefg|e2e2a2|d2e2^c2|dcde"^qu"d2|!
d^cdefg|e2e2a2|d2e2^c2|d4A2:|!
|:agab"^qu"a2|f4c2|f2g2e2|fefgfg|!
agab"^qu"a2|A4a2|g2e4|d6:|

That explains the missing edits.  :|bl

It can't be got right first time, the programs change as do the official standards (ask me about Voices. On second thoughts, don't), and we make bad decisions all the time, all of which occasionally need correcting. There was no committee deciding methodology, just me, for the first six years without the benefit of an internet connection, and my method of working has evolved as the need demanded.

The treatment of repeats at that date, particularly in that MS, is so arbitrary as to be virtually meaningless, as I have pointed out elsewhere on the site, and it can pretty much be treated 'as will', so I make my mind up one way or the other ad hoc for which I make no apology and will not burden every tune with information that has no significance.

My budget over the last 15 years, like yours, has been nil, unlike the tens of thousands of moolah that Farne cost, and the hundreds of thousands that another cost, both of which are hoping for immortality. I don't do anal-retentive on my budget, but I like to think I don't do too bad, and I could do without nit-picking. It's certainly not 'inadequate', thank you. This isn't meant to be a criticism of those sites, but I'm confident that the VMP ABC files will stand the test of time as well as any other ABC files will.

The purpose of the VMP is to make the tunes available in the manageable form which ABC is, but ABC inevitably involves decisions and compromise. Also, ABC files by their very nature and purpose are there to be tampered with and misused by anybody who gets hold of them, so they are liable to be as immutable as Darwin's famous fruit flies, which was pointed out to us the one time we tried for funding; absolute 'true' ABC versions are unattainable, and the work quickly gets stirred around. The only guarantee of authenticity is the original image.

As for the latest VMP version, just go to the site, or http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/Music#Manuscripts.

The value of my work was called into question, you said that you'd rather start again and re-code Atkinson than rely on our transcriptions. I think I've answered your criticisms, and would now prefer to let the matter drop.


Chris Ryall

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2013, 05:53:04 AM »

Gentlemen please calm down! You can always settle these minutiae with pistols or rapiers on Sunday morning  ;)

I think VMP is a fantastic project an always enjoy the, shall we say "different" tunes Chris comes out with in sessions. Scared to join in as there always seems to be a twist! "Villageness" seems to spring from separation, improvisations, little mistakes, and of course, time. In this it shares what happened to Morris dance, or the rondeaux here in Brittany, or Darwin's finches in Galapagos? Evolution and diversity are the essence of music. Does anyone still think God created all these tunes one Satuday night down the pub?

We do need accurate recording of the "facts" of these tunes, or they will all be ironed out by the Internet age. ABC is important in this and I share the view that this needs to be rigourous if we are to use a language that frankly was never designed for this job. AFAIR, ABC is "about" posting tunes on internet text forums ::) where only last week we decided to eschew "proper" ♭ ♮ and ♯ notation.

Nor is ABC syntactically sound in terms of modern computer languages. So I'd anticipate problems some time in the future. But against that the more rigorous XML representation of music … really are "anal"  ::)
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2013, 11:57:20 AM »

Looking at the tune 'A la mode de France', it's interesting to see that the first version published in 1651 in Playford's English Dancing Master (first edition) clearly shows two sharps (see this illustration from Robert Keller:  http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/), and they are arranged vertically at the beginning of the stave much as we do today.  I would assume the writer was thinking of it as a D major or Ionian tune (particularly as the note C# isn't actually present in the tune anyway, so he presumably thought of the key signature first.)

There are two versions of a tune 'None Such' illustrated in Keller's work, and No. 1 seems to be the relevant one.  It's not at all clear, but again, it looks as if the two sharps are shown in an initial key signature.  This would make the tune very similar to 'A la mode de France'.

I've played this second tune differently in the past, based on later transcriptions, I now realise.  Which raises the possibility that actually some of the highly interesting discussion about modes in this thread might be traceable back to inaccurate early transcriptions from previous faded sources! 

(Lowers head well below the parapet!)

Interesting also to consider what the tune's titles meant at the time - 'Nonsuch' was the name of a major hunting lodge built by Henry VIII in Surrey, where dancing was frequent, and his daughter Liz (subsequently the first) was believed to have been a keen dancer there.  Perhaps the tune derived from that connection.  Or perhaps the words 'None Such' in the space for the title merely meant JP didn't know, or couldn't remember, what it was called.  I think it's possible that the words 'A la mode de France' were some kind of satirical comment about the dance, because of course the French and English were pretty much sworn enemies at the time, and it perhaps meant 'In the Frenchie fashion', disparagingly.  It might also have been a play on the word 'mode', because musical modes were certainly being discussed at the time Playford was publishing.  However this would maybe have been just a private joke amongst the musicians, because I don't suppose dancers at courtly events would have understood it.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2013, 06:12:09 PM »

I am now becoming fascinated by the origins of these tunes.  I have found a transcription in Dm of 'Nonsuch No 1' in some transcriptions of Playford dances, in the 1970's I would guess, by my very good but sadly long departed friend Lionel Green, with a reference to Playford 1651.  This is the version I have fairly recently learned to play  (https://soundcloud.com/chrisbrimley/epping-forest-nonsuch-etc-14-2), and have heard others play. Lionel inserted the flattened B in the key signature himself, I would guess, to make sense of a minor tune.  I do not know where he got this from, but my guess is that he was playing violin for a Playford Dance group in Colchester at the time, so the interpretation stems either from him or an earlier one.  He was a trained classical violinist, and would to my mind have tried to 'make sense' of what he was given.

My working hypothesis is now that the unsharpened version of this tune never actually existed, it was based upon a (fortuitous) mis-transcription of Playford 1651.  I'd like to know about how this happened, if anyone has a clue?  And so the beautiful tune was created by complete mistake!  But when, and by whom??

Sherlock, we need you now!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 06:40:17 PM by Chris Brimley »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 07:23:34 PM »

I am now becoming fascinated by the origins of these tunes.  I have found a transcription in Dm of 'Nonsuch No 1' in some transcriptions of Playford dances, in the 1970's I would guess, by my very good but sadly long departed friend Lionel Green, with a reference to Playford 1651.  This is the version I have fairly recently learned to play  (https://soundcloud.com/chrisbrimley/epping-forest-nonsuch-etc-14-2), and have heard others play. Lionel inserted the flattened B in the key signature himself, I would guess, to make sense of a minor tune.  I do not know where he got this from, but my guess is that he was playing violin for a Playford Dance group in Colchester at the time, so the interpretation stems either from him or an earlier one.  He was a trained classical violinist, and would to my mind have tried to 'make sense' of what he was given.

My working hypothesis is now that the unsharpened version of this tune never actually existed, it was based upon a (fortuitous) mis-transcription of Playford 1651.  I'd like to know about how this happened, if anyone has a clue?  And so the beautiful tune was created by complete mistake!  But when, and by whom??

Sherlock, we need you now!

I heard the Dm tune played in France c.1983. When I asked the origin I was told that it is a well known dance tune throughout France. I, however, remain sceptical.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 08:43:05 PM »

i think this tune probably does have a chequered history (except in Felstead?) and "mode" is even more ambiguous. I'd be amazed if it refers to the Greek modes. Still stick with à la mode as " in the style of" and I want to interpret that as harmonic minor (mode  (:) 5)

But the B is not flat, and it comes to us as melodic/jazz modal music. See theory on page one, I think someone didn't like the Bb, which is very pungent and I'd offer "foreign"

But this  is all speculation, the cock-up theory of its history may yet prevail. yes, it's lovely as it is  ;D
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playandteach

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2013, 11:05:12 PM »

Without wanting to start another war, can someone explain the need for ABC (which I have no experience of). I don't believe myself to be an elitist, and have tried with musically non-literate students to devise alternative ways to notate. (Just so we are clear here, these are students with great skills and creativity - I am not denigrating them as musicians or people).
Every time, it turns out to be easier to use staff notation and guide them through basic interpretation of pitch and rhythm. If someone is trying to create an accurate database for posterity, wouldn't staff notation be more reliable, or definitive?
Can I end by confirming my first question again: I am genuinely interested in the need for ABC, and what it is good at. I am not trying to promote musical literacy - I'd love to be better at playing by ear, but if we are trying for a set of rules - hasn't the wheel already been invented?
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Lester

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2013, 11:27:13 PM »

Without wanting to start another war, can someone explain the need for ABC (which I have no experience of). I don't believe myself to be an elitist, and have tried with musically non-literate students to devise alternative ways to notate. (Just so we are clear here, these are students with great skills and creativity - I am not denigrating them as musicians or people).
Every time, it turns out to be easier to use staff notation and guide them through basic interpretation of pitch and rhythm. If someone is trying to create an accurate database for posterity, wouldn't staff notation be more reliable, or definitive?
Can I end by confirming my first question again: I am genuinely interested in the need for ABC, and what it is good at. I am not trying to promote musical literacy - I'd love to be better at playing by ear, but if we are trying for a set of rules - hasn't the wheel already been invented?

ABC is a concise, text-based music notation system, that makes it easy to share tunes via email or on websites. So as it is text based the tunes can be put in a database if you want to find the notes for a tune you can go to JC's Tune Finder or Folk Tune Finder (~200,000 tunes) and type in the name or a snippet of the tune and, if the wind is with you, get a set of ABC notation. With this notation you can print the music, if I could read music, or, more importantly for me, get my computer to play the tune to me. Additionally I can carry around the ~500 tune in my tune book in my iPhone and it will show me the manuscript/bleep the tune as well.

Oh! and I forgot mel.net's own 15,000 tune ABC file
edited to make better sense
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 11:40:06 PM by Lester »
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Theo

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2013, 11:29:44 PM »

And ABC is intended to be a transmission and storage encoding of music, that can easily be rendered in to staff notation for use by musicians.   It was never intended to be read directly by human musicians, though some do.
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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2013, 11:30:20 PM »

And ABC is intended to be a transmission and storage encoding of music, that can easily be rendered in to staff notation for use by musicians.   It was never intended to be read directly by human musicians, though some do.

I do  ;)

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 12:02:43 AM »

Without wanting to start another war, can someone explain the need for ABC (which I have no experience of). I don't believe myself to be an elitist, and have tried with musically non-literate students to devise alternative ways to notate. (Just so we are clear here, these are students with great skills and creativity - I am not denigrating them as musicians or people).
Every time, it turns out to be easier to use staff notation and guide them through basic interpretation of pitch and rhythm. If someone is trying to create an accurate database for posterity, wouldn't staff notation be more reliable, or definitive?
Can I end by confirming my first question again: I am genuinely interested in the need for ABC, and what it is good at. I am not trying to promote musical literacy - I'd love to be better at playing by ear, but if we are trying for a set of rules - hasn't the wheel already been invented?

ABC makes music very portable and allows people to access its output aurally as well as visually. This isn't just for ear players but for basic music readers who aren't good enough to be classed as sight readers per se and need a bit of a kick start getting the idea of a tune before they can read it properly. ABC files are incredibly tiny and there is free software available across all platforms in addition to on-line translators. I can go to a session or a concertina band practice with my entire repertoire and several hundred popular tunes residing in a small corner of my iPad which is back lit so it's always visible and the case acts as a table top music stand. If I was really silly I would probably be able to carry the entire musical output of humanity since the dawn of time around with me on a high spec iPad.

Sibelius is far more powerful of course but would you take an F1 racing car down to the village shop to get a pint of milk?

Pete.  :D
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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 12:35:16 AM »

Excellent. One question posted, 3 replies from Generals with posts totalling over 13000. I feel like Private Ryan.
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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 07:34:47 AM »

From a learning perspective, I've found abc along with the iPad app I use (Tunebook) has really pulled me along in terms of learning to read dots. When I'm learning a tune I always load it into Tunebook for both the dots and the midi playback thus combining learning by ear and eye. Abc for me is really just the carrier mechanism, although I've worked out how to write them out if I can't find abc for a tune. The ability to auto-transpose (various tools on the Internet ) is dead useful for moving tunes to boxes in different keys (hastening the C/F revolution etc.)
Steve
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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 07:54:06 AM »

I bought tunebook following recommendations here but cannot get it to work. it always seems to want to connect to some "server" whereas what I want of it is to paste across ABC, to be frank mostly from here.

Any help/advice appreciated. Seems a bit of a crap app as it stands :-\ so what am I doing wrong?
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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 08:24:57 AM »

I bought Tunebook following recommendations here but cannot get it to work. it always seems to want to connect to some "server" whereas what I want of it is to paste across ABC, to be frank mostly from here.

Any help/advice appreciated. Seems a bit of a crap app as it stands :-\ so what am I doing wrong?

I keep all my ABC in one file out in the cloud so I can access it on my many and varied bits of IT, but to get it into Tunebook you need to follow the instructions:

Open Tunebook
Goto Manage
Press Start Web Server
On the PC that has your ABC on it
Open a browser and type in the URL that is displayed on the iPad (in my case http://lester.local;55260 changes each time you use it)
A window will open that allows you to select the file on your computer to transfer to the iPad
Choose the file
Press Submit
Robert's your father's brother.

Tunebook is a bit fussy about the ABC syntax, I had problems with tunes that were tagged X: 100 (ie with a space after the :) these will not appear in the App.

edited for typos

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Re: Pesky Modes
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 08:50:15 AM »

I struggle with Tunebook at times too, for iPad/iPhone I mostly use The Craic as it not as fussy as Tunebook.
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